Wisconsin Wrestling Online

Are teams able to wrestle at any regional site, or just the one they are assigned too?

Joe,


It is assigned.


Go to this link and scroll to bottom... It will list the assigned regional.   http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm

It assigned, but you can wrestle at another site if needed. We are at the Sauk Prairie Varsity tournament that day and they've also run a JV tournament at the same time in the past that we've gone to, however they are hosting a Regional this year. It's been stated that we could wrestle out of our own Regional and wrestle at the Sauk Prairie Regional if we were attending that Varsity tournament. I don't know if that'll hold true in the future.

Quote from: crossface21 on January 05, 2015, 03:43:45 PM
It assigned, but you can wrestle at another site if needed. We are at the Sauk Prairie Varsity tournament that day and they've also run a JV tournament at the same time in the past that we've gone to, however they are hosting a Regional this year. It's been stated that we could wrestle out of our own Regional and wrestle at the Sauk Prairie Regional if we were attending that Varsity tournament. I don't know if that'll hold true in the future.

NO, Teams are NOT ALLOWED TO WRESTLE IN ANOTHER OR JUST ANY REGION EVENT. Teams MUST wrestle in the Region they are assigned to. Contracts for Varsity and JV teams for the Sauk Prairie event were already in place for this season when Sauk Prairie became a Region host.  Those and ONLY THOSE JV's were "grandfathered in" for ONE YEAR (This Year 14-15)
Other than that exception, teams may only wrestle in the assigned Region event.
Sincerely,
Tom McGarvie
Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series Coordinator

See: < http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm > for more information.  Email trm@wiwrestling.com if you have questions.  This event is only open to WIAA school teams.

Thanks Tom.

Quote from: TomM on January 05, 2015, 06:13:36 PM

Quote from: crossface21 on January 05, 2015, 03:43:45 PM
It assigned, but you can wrestle at another site if needed. We are at the Sauk Prairie Varsity tournament that day and they've also run a JV tournament at the same time in the past that we've gone to, however they are hosting a Regional this year. It's been stated that we could wrestle out of our own Regional and wrestle at the Sauk Prairie Regional if we were attending that Varsity tournament. I don't know if that'll hold true in the future.

NO, Teams are NOT ALLOWED TO WRESTLE IN ANOTHER OR JUST ANY REGION EVENT. Teams MUST wrestle in the Region they are assigned to. Contracts for Varsity and JV teams for the Sauk Prairie event were already in place for this season when Sauk Prairie became a Region host.  Those and ONLY THOSE JV's were "grandfathered in" for ONE YEAR (This Year 14-15)
Other than that exception, teams may only wrestle in the assigned Region event.
Sincerely,
Tom McGarvie
Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series Coordinator

See: < http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm > for more information.  Email trm@wiwrestling.com if you have questions.  This event is only open to WIAA school teams.

Thanks for posting Tom. I should have stated that from what I understood this was the case and that we wouldn't be sending JV after this year because of this. That's why I said I wasn't sure what was happening in the future.

Quote from: crossface21 on January 05, 2015, 08:25:09 PM

Quote from: TomM on January 05, 2015, 06:13:36 PM

Quote from: crossface21 on January 05, 2015, 03:43:45 PM
It assigned, but you can wrestle at another site if needed. We are at the Sauk Prairie Varsity tournament that day and they've also run a JV tournament at the same time in the past that we've gone to, however they are hosting a Regional this year. It's been stated that we could wrestle out of our own Regional and wrestle at the Sauk Prairie Regional if we were attending that Varsity tournament. I don't know if that'll hold true in the future.

NO, Teams are NOT ALLOWED TO WRESTLE IN ANOTHER OR JUST ANY REGION EVENT. Teams MUST wrestle in the Region they are assigned to. Contracts for Varsity and JV teams for the Sauk Prairie event were already in place for this season when Sauk Prairie became a Region host.  Those and ONLY THOSE JV's were "grandfathered in" for ONE YEAR (This Year 14-15)
Other than that exception, teams may only wrestle in the assigned Region event.
Sincerely,
Tom McGarvie
Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series Coordinator

See: < http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm > for more information.  Email trm@wiwrestling.com if you have questions.  This event is only open to WIAA school teams.

Thanks for posting Tom. I should have stated that from what I understood this was the case and that we wouldn't be sending JV after this year because of this. That's why I said I wasn't sure what was happening in the future.

No worries!! I'm glad people are talking about the Wisconsin Wrestling Championship Series.  Over 167 teams entered.  Biggest high school age wrestling tournament in the state aside from WIAA State series!

Quote from: TomM on January 05, 2015, 06:13:36 PM

Quote from: crossface21 on January 05, 2015, 03:43:45 PM
It assigned, but you can wrestle at another site if needed. We are at the Sauk Prairie Varsity tournament that day and they've also run a JV tournament at the same time in the past that we've gone to, however they are hosting a Regional this year. It's been stated that we could wrestle out of our own Regional and wrestle at the Sauk Prairie Regional if we were attending that Varsity tournament. I don't know if that'll hold true in the future.

NO, Teams are NOT ALLOWED TO WRESTLE IN ANOTHER OR JUST ANY REGION EVENT. Teams MUST wrestle in the Region they are assigned to. Contracts for Varsity and JV teams for the Sauk Prairie event were already in place for this season when Sauk Prairie became a Region host.  Those and ONLY THOSE JV's were "grandfathered in" for ONE YEAR (This Year 14-15)
Other than that exception, teams may only wrestle in the assigned Region event.
Sincerely,
Tom McGarvie
Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series Coordinator

See: < http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm > for more information.  Email trm@wiwrestling.com if you have questions.  This event is only open to WIAA school teams.

This is kind of crap.  So a kid who takes 4th place behind one of these "grandfathered teams" kids doesn't qualify because of a special circumstance?  Your regional should be your regional period.  We wouldn't do this for a varsity regional.  So the Sauk j.v. regional got that much tougher because they have had a large j.v. tournament full of higher end varsity and j.v. teams in the past and now all of those out of region teams can compete in the Sauk regional because why, teams don't want to split up their coaches?  Pay for a second bus?    

Quote from: Troy Grindle on January 05, 2015, 09:58:49 PM

Quote from: TomM on January 05, 2015, 06:13:36 PM

Quote from: crossface21 on January 05, 2015, 03:43:45 PM
It assigned, but you can wrestle at another site if needed. We are at the Sauk Prairie Varsity tournament that day and they've also run a JV tournament at the same time in the past that we've gone to, however they are hosting a Regional this year. It's been stated that we could wrestle out of our own Regional and wrestle at the Sauk Prairie Regional if we were attending that Varsity tournament. I don't know if that'll hold true in the future.

NO, Teams are NOT ALLOWED TO WRESTLE IN ANOTHER OR JUST ANY REGION EVENT. Teams MUST wrestle in the Region they are assigned to. Contracts for Varsity and JV teams for the Sauk Prairie event were already in place for this season when Sauk Prairie became a Region host.  Those and ONLY THOSE JV's were "grandfathered in" for ONE YEAR (This Year 14-15)
Other than that exception, teams may only wrestle in the assigned Region event.
Sincerely,
Tom McGarvie
Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series Coordinator

See: < http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm > for more information.  Email trm@wiwrestling.com if you have questions.  This event is only open to WIAA school teams.

This is kind of crap.  So a kid who takes 4th place behind one of these "grandfathered teams" kids doesn't qualify because of a special circumstance?  Your regional should be your regional period.  We wouldn't do this for a varsity regional.  So the Sauk j.v. regional got that much tougher because they have had a large j.v. tournament full of higher end varsity and j.v. teams in the past and now all of those out of region teams can compete in the Sauk regional because why, teams don't want to split up their coaches?  Pay for a second bus?    

Hello Troy,
Nice to hear from you!
Thanks for asking these questions.
Every school with a facility large enough to hold the event (space for a minimum of six mats) in Region #5 that we were aware of, was contacted and asked/offered to be the host of the Region #5 event.  We made over 20 calls and contacts.  No school had their facility available or had other commitments and could not or did not wish to hold the event.  Sauk Prairie was already holding their Varsity/JV event (for years) and by chance found out we were looking for a site and came forward to volunteer to help solve the problem, offering to share their space and time and effort.  We feel fortunate to get a host within the Region at such a late date who was prepared to help out.  Contracts were already in place for their Varsity/JV event and those need to be honored.  This is not an event run by the WIAA.  Not all of the schools that have a varsity at Sauk Prairie will be entering a JV team.  Some will.  I do not have the exact number.
I hope this helps in understanding the situation and I am sure you can appreciate that as with the beginning of any event there will be some hurdles.  We hope it will be a great event for everyone involved and even more wrestlers in the future.
Thanks for your support.
Thanks,
Tom

Quote from: Troy Grindle on January 05, 2015, 09:58:49 PM

Quote from: TomM on January 05, 2015, 06:13:36 PM

Quote from: crossface21 on January 05, 2015, 03:43:45 PM
It assigned, but you can wrestle at another site if needed. We are at the Sauk Prairie Varsity tournament that day and they've also run a JV tournament at the same time in the past that we've gone to, however they are hosting a Regional this year. It's been stated that we could wrestle out of our own Regional and wrestle at the Sauk Prairie Regional if we were attending that Varsity tournament. I don't know if that'll hold true in the future.

NO, Teams are NOT ALLOWED TO WRESTLE IN ANOTHER OR JUST ANY REGION EVENT. Teams MUST wrestle in the Region they are assigned to. Contracts for Varsity and JV teams for the Sauk Prairie event were already in place for this season when Sauk Prairie became a Region host.  Those and ONLY THOSE JV's were "grandfathered in" for ONE YEAR (This Year 14-15)
Other than that exception, teams may only wrestle in the assigned Region event.
Sincerely,
Tom McGarvie
Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series Coordinator

See: < http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm > for more information.  Email trm@wiwrestling.com if you have questions.  This event is only open to WIAA school teams.

This is kind of crap.  So a kid who takes 4th place behind one of these "grandfathered teams" kids doesn't qualify because of a special circumstance?  Your regional should be your regional period.  We wouldn't do this for a varsity regional.  So the Sauk j.v. regional got that much tougher because they have had a large j.v. tournament full of higher end varsity and j.v. teams in the past and now all of those out of region teams can compete in the Sauk regional because why, teams don't want to split up their coaches?  Pay for a second bus?    

I understand your point. But, I don't think comparing the Varsity Regional to the JV Regional would be fair. This is the first year of a brand new idea/concept and I think it's great. There are bound to be some bumps and things that need to be ironed out.  It's only for one year and I think the WWCA did a good job of overcoming that issue of the few teams that already had contracts signed and budgets/schedules taken care of.

I think Troy was concerned about some kids losing an opportunity.  However, without Sauk Prairie hosting the Regional and/or an exception being made for a few teams already committed to be there, there would be much less opportunity for a greater number of kids.  Sometimes, you just have to focus on the big picture... 

I think this series is an awesome idea, and opportunity for the "sub-varsity" wrestlers to get some recognition. Numbers wise, it should be larger at Sauk than anywhere else. Of the 18 teams in the varsity event, 17 are listed on j.v. team list, 2 are from the Sauk regional. Easy math here. 15 extra teams, now how many wrestlers they bring, and if they all still come to Sauk. Some of the teams may be going to there regional, and just happen to still be on the teams list. My guess is if you get out of here, you definitely deserve to. Good luck everyone, gonna be fun. But probably fairly late for this old guy :D

I believe the Sauk list on trackwrestling may contain names of all the Varsity teams there, but not all are entering their JV.  Just an FYI.

It will all work out for the betterment of kids and wrestling.  This year is just the first step toward a tradition that is long overdue.  Kudos to all whom have made/will make this possible!

There are around 40 some schools at a regional, what happens if there is a bracket with 40 kids in it?

Quote from: PCA on January 07, 2015, 10:59:25 AM
There are around 40 some schools at a regional, what happens if there is a bracket with 40 kids in it?

This is a non-seeded advancement tournament at Region and Final levels. There will be no seeding. Trackwrestling makes an effort to separate team members.
Each individual will wrestle a minimum of 2 matches if there are enough entries at the weight.*
Weight Classes under 32 competitors, top 3 wrestlers advance (*2 match minimum at Regional.) 
Weight classes over 32 competitors; Region will run two (2) brackets of balanced size and the champion of each bracket will advance.
Where the five match maximum has been reached and a place must be decided a coin flip will determine the advancing or higher placing wrestler.  For third, the other wrestler will become an alternate if space becomes available for Final at that weight. In a Region wt. with more than 32 a coin flip will determine a final Region one and two order for placement on bracket at the Final. Coin flip is used instead of criteria as there is no Region seeding. In round one at the Final, 2nds and 3rds from different Regions will wrestle and winners will then wrestle a Region 1st. In the case of an 'alternate' this may not hold true.
There will be no 'true' wrestle back to 2nd.
Matches are 2-2-2 for Championship side and 1-2-2 for consolation side

Quote from: PCA on January 07, 2015, 10:59:25 AM
There are around 40 some schools at a regional, what happens if there is a bracket with 40 kids in it?

I doubt that will happen as not every team in the Region has chosen to participate.  Also, of the teams present many do not have enough kids to fill every weight class, some won't fill the majority of the weight classes.  

40 is a lot of teams however & my one recommendation in the future would be to add a few additional weight classes.  Especially in the lower weights.  There a number of Frosh wresting JV who weigh much less than 106lbs. If you added a 98lb weight class you would have plenty of kids in the bracket.  

Number of teams registered so far at each Regional:

Eau Claire  33
Sauk Prairie  31
Wrightstown  23
Homestead  22
Whitnall  21
Merrill  14
Mineral Point  12
Stoughton  11

33 teams registered (some may not send any wrestlers though) and currently about 200 participants. Nice job NW Wisconsin!!  :)
as is stands, we likely have almost all 16 man brackets...with the need for maybe one or two 32 man. 
Interesting that 106 is among the top three weights in total participants.  That's good to see.

Quote from: ecnorth on January 07, 2015, 12:04:51 PM
33 teams registered (some may not send any wrestlers though) and currently about 200 participants. Nice job NW Wisconsin!!  :)
as is stands, we likely have almost all 16 man brackets...with the need for maybe one or two 32 man. 
Interesting that 106 is among the top three weights in total participants.  That's good to see.

This doesn't surprise me at all & is why I suggested in an earlier post they include a weight class that is actually less than 106.   One of the arguments used when changing to the 106lb weight class was the lack of varsity ready upperclassman that could compete at 103.  While this is true, you still see a high number of frosh & even some sophs that are in the 90s.  That is why I would suggest in the future for this event they include a 98lb weight class which I guarantee will have more participants that the 3 heaviest weight classes. 

JV's are typically younger, therefore smaller, so there should absolutely be different weight classes for JV's (versus varsity) that skew lighter.  All weight classes should be lowered or add a few.

People this is high school not youth wrestling!You use high school wt classes!!!People always wanting to fix things that are not broken!!!

The only suggestion I would make is to break weight classes with more than 32 wrestlers into 3 brackets and advance the 3 champs.  That way, the weight class will preserve the same opportunities as the other weight classes. 

Quote from: boowrestle on January 07, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
People this is high school not youth wrestling!You use high school wt classes!!!People always wanting to fix things that are not broken!!!

I disagree.  The current weight classes were created for Varsity competition with no real thought of JV.  The idea of JV is to give the younger & less skilled wrestlers an opportunity to wrestle & prepare many of them for Varsity competition, but like every other sport, your JV consist of younger & less mature wrestlers.  I have attended enough JV tournaments the last 5-6 years to know there are plenty of wrestlers who in the 90 & even some in the 80lb weights.  How in the world is it in their best interest to give up 10-20lbs to the weight class?  Is this in your opinion the best way to keep these undersized kids in the sport? 

I think this series is a great idea & gives all of the JV wrestlers something to shoot for, but I do believe different weight classes makes sense. 

Quote from: 1Iota on January 07, 2015, 01:45:21 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on January 07, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
People this is high school not youth wrestling!You use high school wt classes!!!People always wanting to fix things that are not broken!!!

I disagree.  The current weight classes were created for Varsity competition with no real thought of JV.  The idea of JV is to give the younger & less skilled wrestlers an opportunity to wrestle & prepare many of them for Varsity competition, but like every other sport, your JV consist of younger & less mature wrestlers.  I have attended enough JV tournaments the last 5-6 years to know there are plenty of wrestlers who in the 90 & even some in the 80lb weights.  How in the world is it in their best interest to give up 10-20lbs to the weight class?  Is this in your opinion the best way to keep these undersized kids in the sport? 

I think this series is a great idea & gives all of the JV wrestlers something to shoot for, but I do believe different weight classes makes sense. 

I believe that Illinois once had a smaller weight class for sub-varsity competition, due to the prevalence of undersized, immature wrestlers.  At that time, I think the varsity weight was 95 or 98 and the additional sub-varsity weight class was 90.  If I recall accurately, the 90 weight class was used in tournaments if enough of those kids were present; otherwise, they would wrestle up at 95/98.  It seemed to work well; not sure why they abandoned it, but it seemed like a fair way to improve the competitive experience for those kids. 

Quote from: 1Iota on January 07, 2015, 11:10:22 AM

Quote from: PCA on January 07, 2015, 10:59:25 AM
There are around 40 some schools at a regional, what happens if there is a bracket with 40 kids in it?

I doubt that will happen as not every team in the Region has chosen to participate.  Also, of the teams present many do not have enough kids to fill every weight class, some won't fill the majority of the weight classes.  

40 is a lot of teams however & my one recommendation in the future would be to add a few additional weight classes.  Especially in the lower weights.  There a number of Frosh wresting JV who weigh much less than 106lbs. If you added a 98lb weight class you would have plenty of kids in the bracket.  

Would you have to skinfold test for a non-varsity weight of 98 to qualify? 

When you look at the percentage of body weight disadvantage a 90 pound kid has vs. a 106 pound kid,  there is a likely reason for being on JV (which does not mean the 90 pound kid is not a talented wrestler).

I'm looking forward to the challenge series. My kids are jacked up about it. They are acting more like varsity kids with more focus and determination in the room. They also have started to pay attention more to their diet and getting to a right weight.

Quote from: Numbers on January 07, 2015, 02:24:23 PM

Quote from: 1Iota on January 07, 2015, 11:10:22 AM

Quote from: PCA on January 07, 2015, 10:59:25 AM
There are around 40 some schools at a regional, what happens if there is a bracket with 40 kids in it?

I doubt that will happen as not every team in the Region has chosen to participate.  Also, of the teams present many do not have enough kids to fill every weight class, some won't fill the majority of the weight classes.  

40 is a lot of teams however & my one recommendation in the future would be to add a few additional weight classes.  Especially in the lower weights.  There a number of Frosh wresting JV who weigh much less than 106lbs. If you added a 98lb weight class you would have plenty of kids in the bracket.  

Would you have to skinfold test for a non-varsity weight of 98 to qualify? 

When you look at the percentage of body weight disadvantage a 90 pound kid has vs. a 106 pound kid,  there is a likely reason for being on JV (which does not mean the 90 pound kid is not a talented wrestler).

I suspect that's the deal breaker, at this point.  Good point.

no doubt i win this!...EASY  ;)

The problem I see is distance. Neillsville is placed in the Mineral Point region which is a 3 hour ride instead of the Eau Claire region which is a 1 hour ride. Who could blame them for not going?

It is nice to see people mention the kids that are not going to make the 106# weight class next year. I think that incorporating a lower then 106# weight class would be perfect for these kids that just can't, no matter what, put on a pound but still love the sport. Not sure how you would handle the pinch testing issue for this but  let's not let that stop a opportunity for these smaller guys.

Quote from: 1Iota on January 07, 2015, 01:45:21 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on January 07, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
People this is high school not youth wrestling!You use high school wt classes!!!People always wanting to fix things that are not broken!!!

I disagree.  The current weight classes were created for Varsity competition with no real thought of JV.  The idea of JV is to give the younger & less skilled wrestlers an opportunity to wrestle & prepare many of them for Varsity competition, but like every other sport, your JV consist of younger & less mature wrestlers.  I have attended enough JV tournaments the last 5-6 years to know there are plenty of wrestlers who in the 90 & even some in the 80lb weights.  How in the world is it in their best interest to give up 10-20lbs to the weight class?  Is this in your opinion the best way to keep these undersized kids in the sport?

Actually weight classes were created for HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING, be it JV or Varsity.  I do believe in every other sport WIAA offers, that there are not any differences in the playing rules or regulations between the JV or Varsity, so why do it here?

Plus, how do you make a weight class you don't skinfold for?  And we all know if you make a smaller weight class, someone will think it's best to cut down there instead of wrestling 106. 

foose4,finally somebody that gets it ;)//wether you are jv or varsity you are a high school athlete!We get people on here that want there to be choice between singlets or shorts/shirt and now want special wt classes. ??? guess iam just old school.

In regards to the Sauk regional. Does anyone know if you will need to pay to get into the varsity and j.v. events separately, or just pay one admission like in the past to get into both.

Quote from: boowrestle on January 08, 2015, 01:34:33 PM
foose4,finally somebody that gets it ;)//wether you are jv or varsity you are a high school athlete!We get people on here that want there to be choice between singlets or shorts/shirt and now want special wt classes. ??? guess iam just old school.

Back in the 80's there was a 98 pound weight class.  That is truly old school. ;)

Quote from: joeski on January 08, 2015, 01:52:37 PM
In regards to the Sauk regional. Does anyone know if you will need to pay to get into the varsity and j.v. events separately, or just pay one admission like in the past to get into both.

Have it on trusted advice; There will only be one charge for both events. $6.00

Quote from: Numbers on January 08, 2015, 02:33:20 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on January 08, 2015, 01:34:33 PM
foose4,finally somebody that gets it ;)//wether you are jv or varsity you are a high school athlete!We get people on here that want there to be choice between singlets or shorts/shirt and now want special wt classes. ??? guess iam just old school.

Back in the 80's there was a 98 pound weight class.  That is truly old school. ;)

Earlier than that, as late as 1969, there was a 95 ... http://www.rvwrestlingalum.com/Programs/1969_files/95lbs.jpg

And prior to that in 1963 it was 103

Thanks again Tom. Looking forward to both events. Got a horse in both races. So to speak :)

Quote from: foose4 on January 08, 2015, 12:08:07 PM

Quote from: 1Iota on January 07, 2015, 01:45:21 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on January 07, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
People this is high school not youth wrestling!You use high school wt classes!!!People always wanting to fix things that are not broken!!!

I disagree.  The current weight classes were created for Varsity competition with no real thought of JV.  The idea of JV is to give the younger & less skilled wrestlers an opportunity to wrestle & prepare many of them for Varsity competition, but like every other sport, your JV consist of younger & less mature wrestlers.  I have attended enough JV tournaments the last 5-6 years to know there are plenty of wrestlers who in the 90 & even some in the 80lb weights.  How in the world is it in their best interest to give up 10-20lbs to the weight class?  Is this in your opinion the best way to keep these undersized kids in the sport?

Actually weight classes were created for HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING, be it JV or Varsity.  I do believe in every other sport WIAA offers, that there are not any differences in the playing rules or regulations between the JV or Varsity, so why do it here?

Plus, how do you make a weight class you don't skinfold for?  And we all know if you make a smaller weight class, someone will think it's best to cut down there instead of wrestling 106. 

The rules would be exactly the same.  There rules are no different regardless of weight class.  I think weight classes were created with the idea in mind that wrestlers one in different sizes, other wise lets get rid of weight classes all together.  Toughest man wins regardless of size. 

It also seems as though many of the JV tournaments already have changed formats & rules.  I have never been to a varsity 4 man round robin with no weight class, but instead 4 closest competitors according to weight.  This is the most common format for JV tournaments.  That must really make your blood boil!  Also, this challenge series is not using a 2-2-2 time format for periods.  How can this be?  high school wrestlers should all follow the same rules! 

The reality is JV is different than varsity & one of the differences is the amount of younger wrestlers that are not even 100lbs much less 106.  Why would we not try to create a weight class that leveled the playing field for these kids if we can?  Why would we not do eveything in our power to create an environment that makes them more likely to continue with the sport & keep them wrestling into their Jr. & Sr. years? 

The skin fold test is the most valid argument against doing this, the rest of your post is ignorant BS

Quote from: 1Iota on January 08, 2015, 03:52:40 PM

Quote from: foose4 on January 08, 2015, 12:08:07 PM

Quote from: 1Iota on January 07, 2015, 01:45:21 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on January 07, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
People this is high school not youth wrestling!You use high school wt classes!!!People always wanting to fix things that are not broken!!!

I disagree.  The current weight classes were created for Varsity competition with no real thought of JV.  The idea of JV is to give the younger & less skilled wrestlers an opportunity to wrestle & prepare many of them for Varsity competition, but like every other sport, your JV consist of younger & less mature wrestlers.  I have attended enough JV tournaments the last 5-6 years to know there are plenty of wrestlers who in the 90 & even some in the 80lb weights.  How in the world is it in their best interest to give up 10-20lbs to the weight class?  Is this in your opinion the best way to keep these undersized kids in the sport?

Actually weight classes were created for HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING, be it JV or Varsity.  I do believe in every other sport WIAA offers, that there are not any differences in the playing rules or regulations between the JV or Varsity, so why do it here?

Plus, how do you make a weight class you don't skinfold for?  And we all know if you make a smaller weight class, someone will think it's best to cut down there instead of wrestling 106. 

The rules would be exactly the same.  There rules are no different regardless of weight class.  I think weight classes were created with the idea in mind that wrestlers one in different sizes, other wise lets get rid of weight classes all together.  Toughest man wins regardless of size. 

It also seems as though many of the JV tournaments already have changed formats & rules.  I have never been to a varsity 4 man round robin with no weight class, but instead 4 closest competitors according to weight.  This is the most common format for JV tournaments.  That must really make your blood boil!  Also, this challenge series is not using a 2-2-2 time format for periods.  How can this be?  high school wrestlers should all follow the same rules! 

The reality is JV is different than varsity & one of the differences is the amount of younger wrestlers that are not even 100lbs much less 106.  Why would we not try to create a weight class that leveled the playing field for these kids if we can?  Why would we not do eveything in our power to create an environment that makes them more likely to continue with the sport & keep them wrestling into their Jr. & Sr. years? 

The skin fold test is the most valid argument against doing this, the rest of your post is ignorant BS

So what your saying is now we should make freshman volleyball use a net 6" lower.....there only freshman.  And then let's lower the basket in basketball and make the 3 point circle a foot closet......it's only JV.   Don't forget, for softball and baseball, let's shorten the base paths.....how can freshman throw all the way across a full size field.   I guess for track, what we will do is have those that don't make the varsity scoring spots run earlier than those that can get varsity point and only have them run 80M instead of 100, why should they run the proper length, they aren't on Varsity.  JV football better use a smaller football.....how could anyone not on varsity throw a ball that's regulation size.

Let me know when WIAA sends out the official rules of JV sports, until then let's keep the rules the same.  As far as time, your right, every JV and Freshman game out there use shorter time periods.

And actually there is a rule concerning WEIGHT CLASSES in the WIAA Rules and Regulations

15. RULES GOVERNING COMPETITION
Note: For the 2014-15 season the official weights to be used are: 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195,
220 and 285 lb.

Quote from: foose4 on January 08, 2015, 04:08:22 PM

Quote from: 1Iota on January 08, 2015, 03:52:40 PM

Quote from: foose4 on January 08, 2015, 12:08:07 PM

Quote from: 1Iota on January 07, 2015, 01:45:21 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on January 07, 2015, 12:58:03 PM
People this is high school not youth wrestling!You use high school wt classes!!!People always wanting to fix things that are not broken!!!

I disagree.  The current weight classes were created for Varsity competition with no real thought of JV.  The idea of JV is to give the younger & less skilled wrestlers an opportunity to wrestle & prepare many of them for Varsity competition, but like every other sport, your JV consist of younger & less mature wrestlers.  I have attended enough JV tournaments the last 5-6 years to know there are plenty of wrestlers who in the 90 & even some in the 80lb weights.  How in the world is it in their best interest to give up 10-20lbs to the weight class?  Is this in your opinion the best way to keep these undersized kids in the sport?

Actually weight classes were created for HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLING, be it JV or Varsity.  I do believe in every other sport WIAA offers, that there are not any differences in the playing rules or regulations between the JV or Varsity, so why do it here?

Plus, how do you make a weight class you don't skinfold for?  And we all know if you make a smaller weight class, someone will think it's best to cut down there instead of wrestling 106. 

The rules would be exactly the same.  There rules are no different regardless of weight class.  I think weight classes were created with the idea in mind that wrestlers one in different sizes, other wise lets get rid of weight classes all together.  Toughest man wins regardless of size. 

It also seems as though many of the JV tournaments already have changed formats & rules.  I have never been to a varsity 4 man round robin with no weight class, but instead 4 closest competitors according to weight.  This is the most common format for JV tournaments.  That must really make your blood boil!  Also, this challenge series is not using a 2-2-2 time format for periods.  How can this be?  high school wrestlers should all follow the same rules! 

The reality is JV is different than varsity & one of the differences is the amount of younger wrestlers that are not even 100lbs much less 106.  Why would we not try to create a weight class that leveled the playing field for these kids if we can?  Why would we not do eveything in our power to create an environment that makes them more likely to continue with the sport & keep them wrestling into their Jr. & Sr. years? 

The skin fold test is the most valid argument against doing this, the rest of your post is ignorant BS

So what your saying is now we should make freshman volleyball use a net 6" lower.....there only freshman.  And then let's lower the basket in basketball and make the 3 point circle a foot closet......it's only JV.   Don't forget, for softball and baseball, let's shorten the base paths.....how can freshman throw all the way across a full size field.   I guess for track, what we will do is have those that don't make the varsity scoring spots run earlier than those that can get varsity point and only have them run 80M instead of 100, why should they run the proper length, they aren't on Varsity.  JV football better use a smaller football.....how could anyone not on varsity throw a ball that's regulation size.

Let me know when WIAA sends out the official rules of JV sports, until then let's keep the rules the same.  As far as time, your right, every JV and Freshman game out there use shorter time periods.

And actually there is a rule concerning WEIGHT CLASSES in the WIAA Rules and Regulations

15. RULES GOVERNING COMPETITION
Note: For the 2014-15 season the official weights to be used are: 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195,
220 and 285 lb.

Your argument is inane.  The examples your siting in no way give a competitive advantage to either opponent.  On the other hand requiring a 92lb kid to wrestle a 106lb kid is not a fair competition.  When the changes to the weight classes were made, one of the concerns sited was the number of Frosh wrestling 103.  The argument often used to support the change was that frosh shouldn't necessarily be wrestling varsity anyway.  This change was not made with any real thought given to JV as most JV tournaments don't use these weight classes anyway. 

You ignored my question.  Why would you not want to create a more competing fair situation for all of the undersized wrestlers that litter JV rosters?  How is it in the best interest of wrestling to put them in a situation in which they simply can't compete? 

Realistically we are making something of of nothing here.  This isn't a JV tournament.....the rules state "Sub-Varsity".

And if you kids is 92 wrestling 106 he is at 86.8% of the weight range.  The same at any kid 245 wrestling 285.  I guess we should add a bracket about 240 to make sure you don't forget the big guys too ;D

I am really done arguing this.  Smaller kids have it tougher than those bigger than those in the weight bracket, everyone knows that.  We just have to get away from the "it's not fair" thought process. 

How ever you look at it....this is a great start. 

What are the qualifications for wrestling in this tournament? Can you win this tournament and then wrestle in regionals for varsity? I actually hope not.  I don't think that's what it is meant for.

Quote from: aarons23 on January 08, 2015, 04:34:00 PM
How ever you look at it....this is a great start. 

What are the qualifications for wrestling in this tournament? Can you win this tournament and then wrestle in regionals for varsity? I actually hope not.  I don't think that's what it is meant for.

If you look at the rules, it doesn't state that you can't do both, and I hope the only way that would happen is if your #1 kids got hurt the week before and you have no one else for that spot.  I did read that it states up to coaches discretion but this really isn't made for really good kids that can win varsity matches but lose the wrestle off for the spot, its made for those that are not at the varsity talent level.

Rule #2) The event is considered 'sub-varsity' level.
-Ask yourself if this wrestler is a 'sub-varsity' level wrestler.
-If the wrestler has been on the varsity or belonged on the varsity this year, should he enter this event?
-A 'varsity' wrestler should not be entered in this tournament.
-This tournament should not be used by a varsity wrestler to fill in for a 'missed' varsity tournament opportunity.
-This event is meant for high school wrestlers who are not regularly varsity wrestlers

This is a great event.  How many duals do you go to where only about 3 JV matches happen before the varsity match?  Our school has 29 kids on our team and you really have to work hard to get the non varsity starters matches.   And you need to do that or we will lose them.   

How about two 106 classes, A & B?  See what the field looks like and divide the bracket, if warranted.  No new fat test required, because they are still in the same weight class. 

Giving up a little wt is not going to kill these smaller kids,my kid weighed 100lbs soaking wet,airk furseth 84lbs freshman yr, both kids had almost 30 varsity wins at 106lbs they never complained they paid there dues and are both highly ranked seniors.Jmo it never seems to be the kids that complain and want these changes,but almost always is the parents.

I get what you are saying, but most undersized kids will not have that same experience.  Remember, this is about providing a good experience for sub-varsity wrestlers.  I think posters are just looking for ways to encourage those kids to stick with it long enough to mature and grow into the weight class.  One of my high school teammates was about 80 lbs. as a freshman and it was pretty tough on him.  Soph. year he was about 85, so he was a bit more competitive and the 90 lb. class allowed him to get more wins.  He won our Soph. Conference at 90 lbs. that year.  He only grew to be 4' 10" tall, so he had to lift weights religiously to become a full-fledged 95 lb. varsity wrestler as a junior.  His senior year, the weight class became 98 lbs., and he actually had to lose a couple pounds to make scratch weight.  He was Conference and Regional runner-up that year; a key factor in us winning the Regional title.  The turning point for him came during his soph. year, when he had the chance to compete with guys his own size.  No parents demanded it, but some smart adults gave him and other undersized kids a better opportunity...  and he made the most of it, despite not having a great deal of natural ability. 

Back in the day. I wrestled in the 185lb weight class, weighed in at state on the second day at 171lbs. Our heavy weighed in at 186. We didnt whine about it. We didnt care, we were wrestling.

Yes, life was different, back in the day, and we liked it...    ;)

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVjRuBrBUfWsA9EUPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?p=youtube+and+we+liked+it+dana&tnr=21&vid=C23AE8DA02E553E19189C23AE8DA02E553E19189&l=151&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608041514103603863%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBbU4Cb4A4-o&sigr=11bhj80ua&tt=b&tit=That%26%2339%3Bs+The+Way+It+Was+And+We+Liked+It&sigt=119132ub4&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dyoutube%2Band%2Bwe%2Bliked%2Bit%2Bdana%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=138at7vfr&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

In regard to the overall debate about weight classes.... there are states that have an extra lower weight than 106 for varsity competition.  they also had these lower classes when the minimum was 103.

I have enjoyed reading various opinions on adding a lower weight class for JV.  "Old School" opinions crack me up.  I feel like I'm reading a wrestling version of "Footloose". 

Shouldn't the objective be to take whatever action is good for kids and good for the sport?  That's awesome if someone's son battled through as an undersized 106 pound Freshman.  What does that have to do with making the best decision for the most amount of kids involved right now? 

I also have a freshman wrestling varsity at 106.  My son also weighs about 100 pounds.  He's doing fine.   I don't know what my son's situation has to do with creating more opportunities for undersized, less experienced kids to love wrestling and competing.

My son wrestled one 80-something pound boy at a tournament, and my son said the boy actually whimpered like a puppy when my son had him in the air.  My son ended it quickly, and told us later that he wished that boy did not have to be on varsity.  My son said the boy looked miserable all day. 

So, that's where I'm coming from. If there was a place for that boy my son wrestled to compete, maybe have a little success (not be demoralized) and learn to love wrestling, I'm all for it.

I've got an idea...  before we sit and discuss how to fix a tournament series that hasn't happened yet, let's let the tournament happen on Saturday and see what works and didn't work.  Then let the tournament committee discuss and figure out changes for the future.  This is a work in progress and it is doing it's goal already of promoting sub-varsity level wrestling with an important tournament. 

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 12:58:12 PM
I've got an idea...  before we sit and discuss how to fix a tournament series that hasn't happened yet, let's let the tournament happen on Saturday and see what works and didn't work.  Then let the tournament committee discuss and figure out changes for the future.  This is a work in progress and it is doing it's goal already of promoting sub-varsity level wrestling with an important tournament. 

I must take the blame for this as I think I was the first to offer the opinion.  I was simply offering an idea that I felt might enhance what is without question a great step towards promoting wrestling at the sub-varsity level.  I no longer have any kids in HS, but remain focused on anything that will keep kids in the sport & growing our numbers.  Wrestling has always been the one sport that undersized athletes gravitated towards & with that in mind I was offering an idea that I feel would help retain that tradition. 

No matter what, I applaud the individuals behind this series &  appreciate their efforts. 

Numbers participating in each regional:

Eau Claire North 196
Homestead 270
Merrill 162
Mineral Point 81
Sauk Prairie 300
Stoughton  135
Whitnall 299
Wrightstown  160

Total 1603 kids wrestling tomorrow that might not have been without this series.  I would say that is a success!

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 01:13:26 PM
Numbers participating in each regional:

Eau Claire North 196
Homestead 270
Merrill 162
Mineral Point 81
Sauk Prairie 300
Stoughton  135
Whitnall 299
Wrightstown  160

Total 1603 kids wrestling tomorrow that might not have been without this series.  I would say that is a success!

Agreed.  First step in a great idea.

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 01:13:26 PM
Numbers participating in each regional:

Eau Claire North 196
Homestead 270
Merrill 162
Mineral Point 81
Sauk Prairie 300
Stoughton  135
Whitnall 299
Wrightstown  160

Total 1603 kids wrestling tomorrow that might not have been without this series.  I would say that is a success!

Just curious where you got the numbers from since track isn't releasing that info yet. Awesome that there are that many kids.

300 at Sauk Prairie. Yikes. They run 4 mats in the varsity gym. They only can run 4 in the JV gym. Unless they got other mats and another gym, I can't see how that tournament ends....ever..... ;D

Quote from: crossface21 on January 09, 2015, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 01:13:26 PM
Numbers participating in each regional:

Eau Claire North 196
Homestead 270
Merrill 162
Mineral Point 81
Sauk Prairie 300
Stoughton  135
Whitnall 299
Wrightstown  160

Total 1603 kids wrestling tomorrow that might not have been without this series.  I would say that is a success!

Just curious where you got the numbers from since track isn't releasing that info yet. Awesome that there are that many kids.

300 at Sauk Prairie. Yikes. They run 4 mats in the varsity gym. They only can run 4 in the JV gym. Unless they got other mats and another gym, I can't see how that tournament ends....ever..... ;D

Go on track and click on the teams icon.  It tells you how many kids are entered for each team.  Just can't see which specific kids or weight classes.  Pulled out the calculator and went to town with my mad math skills.

And I thought one of the precursors for hosting this tournament was having to have 6 mats available.

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 01:30:59 PM

Quote from: crossface21 on January 09, 2015, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 01:13:26 PM
Numbers participating in each regional:

Eau Claire North 196
Homestead 270
Merrill 162
Mineral Point 81
Sauk Prairie 300
Stoughton  135
Whitnall 299
Wrightstown  160

Total 1603 kids wrestling tomorrow that might not have been without this series.  I would say that is a success!

Just curious where you got the numbers from since track isn't releasing that info yet. Awesome that there are that many kids.

300 at Sauk Prairie. Yikes. They run 4 mats in the varsity gym. They only can run 4 in the JV gym. Unless they got other mats and another gym, I can't see how that tournament ends....ever..... ;D

Go on track and click on the teams icon.  It tells you how many kids are entered for each team.  Just can't see which specific kids or weight classes.  Pulled out the calculator and went to town with my mad math skills.

And I thought one of the precursors for hosting this tournament was having to have 6 mats available.

Having 6 mats is a precursor. From what I understand, and Tom please correct me on this if I am wrong, is that there was nobody to host the Regional. Since Sauk was already having a tournament, they volunteered to do it since there were no sites.

Like I said, Sauk may have another gym that I'm not aware of or may have figured out the logistics for how its gonna work, but that is a TON of wrestlers with not a whole lot of place to put the fans and kids not wrestling, especially if they somehow fit 6 mats into the JV gym they normally use. I wish the best. As much as I wanna go, I'm kinda glad I won't be there tomorrow ;D 2 1/2 bus drive home. We've always been out by 7pm, so getting home by 10 was good for the quality of tournament they put on. The varsity side I think is underrated for how tough its been and the JV has always been run pretty smooth.

Quote from: crossface21 on January 09, 2015, 01:42:52 PM

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 01:30:59 PM

Quote from: crossface21 on January 09, 2015, 01:27:08 PM

Quote from: bkraus on January 09, 2015, 01:13:26 PM
Numbers participating in each regional:

Eau Claire North 196
Homestead 270
Merrill 162
Mineral Point 81
Sauk Prairie 300
Stoughton  135
Whitnall 299
Wrightstown  160

Total 1603 kids wrestling tomorrow that might not have been without this series.  I would say that is a success!

Just curious where you got the numbers from since track isn't releasing that info yet. Awesome that there are that many kids.

300 at Sauk Prairie. Yikes. They run 4 mats in the varsity gym. They only can run 4 in the JV gym. Unless they got other mats and another gym, I can't see how that tournament ends....ever..... ;D

Go on track and click on the teams icon.  It tells you how many kids are entered for each team.  Just can't see which specific kids or weight classes.  Pulled out the calculator and went to town with my mad math skills.

And I thought one of the precursors for hosting this tournament was having to have 6 mats available.

Having 6 mats is a precursor. From what I understand, and Tom please correct me on this if I am wrong, is that there was nobody to host the Regional. Since Sauk was already having a tournament, they volunteered to do it since there were no sites.

Like I said, Sauk may have another gym that I'm not aware of or may have figured out the logistics for how its gonna work, but that is a TON of wrestlers with not a whole lot of place to put the fans and kids not wrestling, especially if they somehow fit 6 mats into the JV gym they normally use. I wish the best. As much as I wanna go, I'm kinda glad I won't be there tomorrow ;D 2 1/2 bus drive home. We've always been out by 7pm, so getting home by 10 was good for the quality of tournament they put on. The varsity side I think is underrated for how tough its been and the JV has always been run pretty smooth.

Sauk Prairie is running 6 mats for Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series Region event.

Quote from: Mack on January 09, 2015, 12:36:57 PM
I have enjoyed reading various opinions on adding a lower weight class for JV.  "Old School" opinions crack me up.  I feel like I'm reading a wrestling version of "Footloose". 

Shouldn't the objective be to take whatever action is good for kids and good for the sport?  That's awesome if someone's son battled through as an undersized 106 pound Freshman.  What does that have to do with making the best decision for the most amount of kids involved right now? 

I also have a freshman wrestling varsity at 106.  My son also weighs about 100 pounds.  He's doing fine.   I don't know what my son's situation has to do with creating more opportunities for undersized, less experienced kids to love wrestling and competing.

My son wrestled one 80-something pound boy at a tournament, and my son said the boy actually whimpered like a puppy when my son had him in the air.  My son ended it quickly, and told us later that he wished that boy did not have to be on varsity.  My son said the boy looked miserable all day. 

So, that's where I'm coming from. If there was a place for that boy my son wrestled to compete, maybe have a little success (not be demoralized) and learn to love wrestling, I'm all for it.

+1,000   8)

Don't get me wrong I think this is an awesome for kids not able to compete in varsity tournaments.  Giving JV wrestlers a tournament that they can showcase there skills and show how much hard work they put in for the year.  But with that being said its doesn't seem fair that someone like Sauk Prairie who has 300 kids because some schools they have attending are coming to the varsity tournament.  With all the extra kids they are getting they are taking away the kids that were suppose to wrestle in another regional.  And I believe each hosting regional gets paid an amount for each kid or a  max cost with teams with 10 or more wrestlers.  This goes towards referee fees since each host regional has to find there own refs and pay them $100 each.  Look at Mineral Point there losing 2 schools to Sauk Prairie and the money they would get for those 26 wrestlers would help pay for the 4 refs needed that day.  I think when I looked last there was 12 schools that switched to come to Sauk Prairie instead of there own regional and Stoughton regional being the biggest loser with 6 schools moving over.  If they regional sites are willing to host and have there clubs volunteer there time to run them then I would think someone would have to enforce the rules to staying in your own regional.  Just my thought, but still looking forward to some great wrestling and wishing all the kids the best and have fun.   :)

boz21,
Glad you feel this is a good event and that you are looking forward to it.
To clear a few things up for you;
First, the Regions will be reimbursed for costs that entry fees do not cover for each Region (ie: referees etc.)
Second, regarding 'enforcing the rules'... I will re-post what has already been posted in this very thread previously on January 5, on this topic for you
< http://wiwrestling.info/index.php?topic=45593.msg564993#msg564993 >
Every school with a facility large enough to hold the event (space for a minimum of six mats) in Region #5 that we were aware of, was contacted and asked/offered to be the host of the Region #5 event.  We made over 20 calls and contacts.  No school had their facility available or had other commitments and could not or did not wish to hold the event.  Sauk Prairie was already holding their Varsity/JV event (for years) and by chance found out we were looking for a site and came forward to volunteer to help solve the problem, offering to share their space and time and effort.  We feel fortunate to get a host within the Region at such a late date who was prepared to help out.  Contracts were already in place for their Varsity/JV event and those need to be honored. This is not an event run by the WIAA.  Not all of the schools that have a varsity at Sauk Prairie will be entering a JV team.  Some will.  I do not have the exact number.
I hope this helps in understanding the situation and I am sure you can appreciate that as with the beginning of any event there will be some hurdles.  We hope it will be a great event for everyone involved and even more wrestlers in the future.
Next year teams will attend their assigned Region if they desire to enter the Region event.  As with any great endeavor there is a first step and it is not always perfect.
Tom

Did I miss it the listed start time? I can not seem to find it.

I think the discussion about how to make this great opportunity even better is encouraging, because it shows that people see the value in it and are excited about it.  Obviously, the things we've talked about are not doable today; nor should they be, given time constraints and the lack of actual results from the current implementation plans.  Any value (beyond immediate entertainment and promotion) will be revealed if/when experience reveals direct correlations between them and actual tournament results.  I am so excited to see this step taken for wrestling and its participants!  I look forward to this becoming a Wisconsin tradition that will just get better and better.   8)  Have a great day and enjoy participating in this latest chapter in Wisconsin's wrestling history!   

Quote from: TomM on January 10, 2015, 01:03:28 AM
boz21,
Glad you feel this is a good event and that you are looking forward to it.
To clear a few things up for you;
First, the Regions will be reimbursed for costs that entry fees do not cover for each Region (ie: referees etc.)
Second, regarding 'enforcing the rules'... I will re-post what has already been posted in this very thread previously on January 5, on this topic for you
< http://wiwrestling.info/index.php?topic=45593.msg564993#msg564993 >
Every school with a facility large enough to hold the event (space for a minimum of six mats) in Region #5 that we were aware of, was contacted and asked/offered to be the host of the Region #5 event.  We made over 20 calls and contacts.  No school had their facility available or had other commitments and could not or did not wish to hold the event.  Sauk Prairie was already holding their Varsity/JV event (for years) and by chance found out we were looking for a site and came forward to volunteer to help solve the problem, offering to share their space and time and effort.  We feel fortunate to get a host within the Region at such a late date who was prepared to help out.  Contracts were already in place for their Varsity/JV event and those need to be honored. This is not an event run by the WIAA.  Not all of the schools that have a varsity at Sauk Prairie will be entering a JV team.  Some will.  I do not have the exact number.
I hope this helps in understanding the situation and I am sure you can appreciate that as with the beginning of any event there will be some hurdles.  We hope it will be a great event for everyone involved and even more wrestlers in the future.
Next year teams will attend their assigned Region if they desire to enter the Region event.  As with any great endeavor there is a first step and it is not always perfect.
Tom

I appreciate you taking the time Tom to enlighten me regarding the reasoning for Sauk Prairie hosting a regional.  Kudos to them for stepping up to the plate.  I agree with this being the first year of this event that things come up and we can learn from everything and move to make it better each and every year this continues.  Thanks to everyone who put this together and to those who volunteered there time to make these tournaments run smoothly.  Should be some great wrestling in two weeks in Wausau. 

Thank you for all teams that attended and competed today.  I think our regional went well.  There was some real nice excitement for finals and placement matches. 

This was a great event.  Thank you to all who conceived the idea, and worked to make it happen. It's so good for kids and for the sport of wrestling.  It's exciting. Things went very smoothly at Sauk Prairie.  The JV tournament ended by 4pm, thanks to a lot of awesome volunteers and good planning.  

The tourney at ECN went very well as well. They showcased the finals matches on two mats closest to the bleachers. Our kids thought this was cool. The experience from this tourney will go a long way in preparing the jv kids for varsity. It resembled a varsity tourney with weight classes, double elimination brackets (rather than round robins). I think using weight classes, rather than pairing up kids of closest weight is an important experience. We had some kids lose weight and go up in weight to avoid teammates and fill weight classes. Not all kids did this because some aren't ready or committed enough to understand that aspect.

One addition I would add is a team score component. It could be done similar to Marty loy, by scoring your top ten wrestlers, or have a coach declare 1 wrestler per weight class as your scoring team. Yes, I know, this favors big teams/big schools, but that's kind of the way it works. I like this because now bonus points mean more and so does filling weight classes. Again, all important aspects of preparing a kid for varsity.

Track wrestling already has a feature where you can score the best 10, 14, etc regardless of weight class. Not sure what team scores mean in this case though.

My athletes thought the Whitnall region was really well run. The kids said they felt like there was something more to wrestle for than a medal. They loved it. Great job to all involved in creating this series.

Just an additional thought about possibly adding a few lower weight brackets...having sons who have wrestled light...there is no glory, "feel good", mat time, or any thing when you wrestle at 106 and beat someone 5, 10, 15, 20lbs lighter...I see it as a loose loose situation for both wrestlers. At the JV level, when wrestlers could possibly be new to the sport...give them an opportunity to wrestle...not pin or be pinned.

Quote from: P DUB on January 11, 2015, 12:44:53 PM
Just an additional thought about possibly adding a few lower weight brackets...having sons who have wrestled light...there is no glory, "feel good", mat time, or any thing when you wrestle at 106 and beat someone 5, 10, 15, 20lbs lighter...I see it as a loose loose situation for both wrestlers. At the JV level, when wrestlers could possibly be new to the sport...give them an opportunity to wrestle...not pin or be pinned.

Sorry, P DUB we're teaching these undersized kids that life isn't fair.  This is a much better lesson than putting both wrestlers in a competive situation in which they can learn the joys of the sport.

Quote from: 1Iota on January 11, 2015, 02:02:54 PM

Quote from: P DUB on January 11, 2015, 12:44:53 PM
Just an additional thought about possibly adding a few lower weight brackets...having sons who have wrestled light...there is no glory, "feel good", mat time, or any thing when you wrestle at 106 and beat someone 5, 10, 15, 20lbs lighter...I see it as a loose loose situation for both wrestlers. At the JV level, when wrestlers could possibly be new to the sport...give them an opportunity to wrestle...not pin or be pinned.

Sorry, P DUB we're teaching these undersized kids that life isn't fair.  This is a much better lesson than putting both wrestlers in a competive situation in which they can learn the joys of the sport.

Of course it is.  In fact, it is so important that Nancy Kerrigan has recommended to the International Olympic Committee that random kneecapping will be done to competitors at the next Olympics.   ;)  

Seriously though, I'm guessing that the undersized wrestler issue will at least be a topic of discussion when this is planned in the future.  The intent is obviously to improve opportunities for young wrestlers, so I'm sure the issue will be carefully and respectfully dealt with.   8)

I would like to Thank all of the teams that participated at the Sauk Prairie regional.  We knew going in we would have large numbers so we made the necessary adjustments to accommodate everyone and felt we did a great job.  We are blessed to live in a community that is committed to putting on great events.  If you were in attendance and have any suggestions we would love to hear them. 
Would also like to Thank our volunteers as they did an awesome job.

Good Luck to all wrestlers and coaches the rest of the year.

I took the following from this website.  Please read and then tell me if a wrestler that was one point away from going to the state tournament a year ago should have been wrestling in this series.  This particular wrestler hasnt wrestled all year so im assuming he is coming back from injury or code violation.

Who should be entered in the Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series?

Questions have been asked regarding who can or should enter the Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series (WWCS).
There will be some gray area and ambiguity involved as it is impossible to set a specific standard or rule that will cover every individual situation.
Here are some thoughts and questions coaches need to ask themselves and think about in deciding whether to enter an individual into the WWCS.

1) Coaches are asked to use discretion and common sense in choosing to enter individuals in this 'sub-varsity' event.
-A coach should be able to say his conscience is clear regarding every wrestler entered in the WWCS from his team.

2) The event is considered 'sub-varsity' level.
-Ask yourself if this wrestler is a 'sub-varsity' level wrestler.
-If the wrestler has been on the varsity or belonged on the varsity this year, should he enter this event?
-A 'varsity' wrestler should not be entered in this tournament.
-This tournament should not be used by a varsity wrestler to fill in for a 'missed' varsity tournament opportunity.
-This event is meant for high school wrestlers who are not regularly varsity wrestlers.

Hard to tell, because we don't have all the details.  Reportedly, the kid has not wrestled this year, so he's not currently a varsity kid.  We don't know why he didn't wrestle.  Could be something serious like a bad injury, a severe illness, etc., for all we know.  If he hasn't wrestled all year, then it's unlikely that he is wrestling at his best.  I think the point is that the kid's status this year is the determining factor and the coach is entrusted to evaluate that.  Second guessing, on the basis of assumptions, isn't going to solve anything at this point.  If you do have enough information to legitimately question the kid's involvement in the tourney, is this forum really the most appropriate and productive place to bring it up?  Not trying to be mean about it, but your description probably just identified him to a lot of people from your region and cast his involvement in a bad light.  Is that really fair?

This was one complaint I heard from several coaches.  There needs to be a clear cut rule for who is eligible to compete in this.  I was told one kid competed at cheesehead last year and the JV regional this year.  I know of another that missed two varsity tourneys so they wrestled him in this.  By the current rules they did nothing wrong.... But I don't think it's right.

Talking with one coach on Sunday he was disappointed in that if your wrestler lost first round the best they could do is fifth....thought maybe to many wrestlers created this problem.  He wasn't sure he would support it next year.  I suggested the JV tourney should start in conference as a conference meet and then advance the top two.  Thus could create more local interest and help eliminate some cost and hopefully bring the numbers down at the regional so they could actually wrestle back to second or third.

For the most I heard very posative responses. Great job of getting this together and hopefully we can work to better it in the future.

Like I said last week, I think this is an awesome event for the sub-varsity level wrestlers. I have 2 sons wrestling right now. A freshman, and a junior. First the freshman. He was in a 24 man, unseeded random draw at Sauk. When I saw you had to make the semis to have a chance to advance, I was a little disappointed. He won twice, lost in the quarters to the eventual champ, won two more, and finished 5.5 place, his words.
Because he had reached his max matches, he could not wrestle the placement match. To him, he feels he could have finished second. We will never know. Hopefully the event continues, and someone smarter than me will be able to make the adjustments to make the event even better.
My older son was 19-15 last year on varsity at 106. He fat tested MWW of 115, with permission this year. He has filled in at 132, 126 while the varsity wrestler recovers from injury. And at 120 while the varsity wrestler at that spot was getting down to weight. If he had not still been filling in at 126, he would have been in the reg event on Sat. I'm sure someone would have been upset about that, but the level of sub-varsity is such a wide margin, even from team to team, there will always be some kids that people don't think should be at this event. To me, if your not on varsity, your sub-varsity level.
Tom, I do have some ideas for the future. But being a bad typer, this took me a half hour to type. So you could always message me, and I would send you my phone number if you ever want to talk. Hope any of this made sense.

OMG Fish!!!! are you serious right now!  I never even used the kids name, I never used the kids team name, heck i didnt even say what sectional he placed in.  This is EXACTLY what the forum is used for, to generate some debate.  I never implied that i agree or disagree, i simply stated the rules that were written and asked a question.   

Sorry if i hurt your feelings.

I think that this tournament is awesome. What a great step in the right direction to help build wrestling. Who ever has put this all together give yourself a hand. I am sure it has taken a lot of work. My suggestion is this. As far as kids that should or should not wrestle in this. Let that police itself. The more of a big deal you make about it and the more rules you "try" to create, the more it will become watered down, and the more you will turn off the kids who should be wrestling in this. The truth is not ever kid is a state champion type wrestler. No matter what they do. God makes everybody different. So for the kids that aren't, give them there do. They deserve it as well. And for the ones that should not be there, you will never completely stop that. You are always going to have that coach, that parent, that kid. It happens in youth all the time. Are you a beginner, average, good or excellent? I am excited to watch this grow and see the change it will make on WI wrestling.   

Quote from: WINfan on January 12, 2015, 09:39:12 AM
OMG Fish!!!! are you serious right now!  I never even used the kids name, I never used the kids team name, heck i didnt even say what sectional he placed in.  This is EXACTLY what the forum is used for, to generate some debate.  I never implied that i agree or disagree, i simply stated the rules that were written and asked a question.   

Sorry if i hurt your feelings.

You didn't hurt my feelings at all, but (as posters) we do have a responsibility to the kids who wrestle.  My point is that any such issues should be reported to the people running this series, if we feel there is a legitimate issue.  Apparently, I hurt your feelings, though.  Sorry if that is the case. 

Lol, no you didnt hurt my feelings,  i was just in shock as i when i posted i was trying to avoid that exact issue you mentioned.  A poster a few weeks ago started the thread "what has happen to this forum."  Part of what happen is people are afraid to post something and have people like you come in and try to discredit an honest conversation that had no harmful intent.

Btw, I think activity has been up since that poster made that topic.

Quote from: WINfan on January 12, 2015, 11:47:36 AM
Lol, no you didnt hurt my feelings,  i was just in shock as i when i posted i was trying to avoid that exact issue you mentioned.  A poster a few weeks ago started the thread "what has happen to this forum."  Part of what happen is people are afraid to post something and have people like you come in and try to discredit an honest conversation that had no harmful intent.

Btw, I think activity has been up since that poster made that topic.

Not trying to cause a problem; just concerned about the kids.  Also looking at what might be most effective in addressing such situations.  IMO, going directly to those with the most authority will have the greatest impact.  I do appreciate your concerns, though.

I was in sauk on Saturday and they did an incredible job hosting it.  I do hope that it truly was a one a done year scenario for other teams competing outside their regional like has been said previously on here.  107 extra kids at the sauk regional from teams that shouldn't have been there.  17 of them took qualifying spots away from kids who were at their correctly assigned regional.  I understand why it happened this way, but it absolutely can't happen in the future under any circumstances.  Every place winner at 113 was from a different school that weren't supposed to be at this regional.  Other than that it was an awesome experience that I know my wrestlers got a lot out of.

As far as not being able to wrestle back to 3rd if you lose early.  Yes that sucks.  Maybe next year have the coaches can rank their kids on a 1-4 scale just to try and separate the better kids.

I really didn't see any "hammers" at sauk on Friday that shouldn't have been there.  I think it helps to have it on a busy weekend of wrestling with both varsity and jv competing because it forces a coaches hand on where to send his varsity starter that missed a couple of tournaments early in the year and could make them up by wrestling in this.

Thanks for the WWCA for making this happen and I hope that it continues in the future.

I think this is a great idea but it should not be used as a get back in shape tournament. The purpose is to help the sport maintain lesser wrestlers and give them something to train for. Now you may have a stud that never will see the mat because he has a couple great wrestlers in front of him. That to me is fine, get him out there but to send out a varsity wrestler to get back in wrestling shape is not what this is for.

I propose we add a rule that if you compete in the WWCA challenge, you CAN wrestle in regionals and will count toward their team's score if your team needs a wrestler at that weight class but can NOT advance to individual sectionals.

Varsity wrestlers already have their championship series.

Easy to fix.  If a kid advances to the next level, he/she is disqualified from any individual competition in the WIAA tournament series.  They could still be used in the team tournament series, though.  What do you guys think?

Our kid is going to the Challenge Series state, and will wrestle in the regional. He is not our varsity kid, because he fat tested to 120 and can't beat our 120 pounder.

Funny how we complain about too much government but we want rules for everything. Let coaches go at their discretion. Are there instances where there are extremely good kids not wrestling varsity? Yes. There are kids behind state champs. They aren't varsity. They probably could wrestle varsity in other places. They happen to be behind a kid, which makes them not varsity.

Quote from: imnofish on January 12, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
Easy to fix.  If a kid advances to the next level, he/she is disqualified from any individual competition in the WIAA tournament series.  They could still be used in the team tournament series, though.  What do you guys think?

If you do this, I would imagine a lot of the better kids may not wrestle in it then.  Injury happens at conference tournament to the kid you back up and wrestle off.....but you can't go because you wrestled in the challenge series.  I don't know if a good kid would think it's worth the risk of having to sit out the tournament to wrestle in this.  Our team had some kids not wrestle in it and take an alternate spot at a varsity tournament instead already.  Too many other JV tournaments out there to go to if you know you give up your chance to go to regionals.  Just my two cents.

Really a mute point though as the WIAA is not going to make any rule like that anyway.

Ghetto makes a good point.  In some programs, you have next year's state finalist sitting behind this year's state finalist.  Not fair to keep that kid from competing at the JV level, just because he's good.

I agree, but maybe their could be some type of Line you cant cross.  For example,  Did that wrestler place top 12 at a christmas tournament.  Sectional Qualifier from the year before.

Just to be clear,  Im not trying to focus on all the negatives here.  I am 100% in support of whats going on with the challenge series and think the organizers have done a great job with it.  I think its a great thing for J.V. wrestlers and like you said might be next years state champion.  I remember when Brian Barbiaux from Luxemburg was on J.V. his freshman year because he was behind Eric Metzler.  I think he won state the following three seasons. 

You start putting all these criteria and rules on who can and can't wrestle because of past and future competition, this Challenge Series is going to die pretty quickly or not be attended by many schools. There's no perfect way to do it. I think you just have to hope that coaches use their discretion and to the responsible thing. I bet there will be quite a few kids wrestling Regionals and some even in Sectionals that were part of the Challenge Series and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Too many things can happen between now and the end of the season. We want full teams at the Regionals and just because a kid wrestled in a JV, Sub-varsity, whatever you wanna call it tournament shouldn't disqualify him from future tournaments.

Some useful information:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BPc7OtJfPPJiPVK6vxozt4pzHtmrw7TDFfkI3wPCqjg/edit?usp=sharing

https://sites.google.com/site/mn9gwl/


I will find our conference JV championship eligibility criteria and post it sometime soon.

The criteria for this league is simply 9th grade and under.  You can have varsity wrestlers competing in this.

I agree with what a lot on here have mentioned. I don't want to make wrestlers shy away fearing they would be ineligible but I did see a couple names on the list of place winners and these are sectional qualifiers who were close to making it to state, coming back from injury.

To me, this is not the place to get them matches. I know they need mat time but there are plenty of JV tournaments out there to get them matches without using this tournament. Now, there are several spots that will not be filled because of this and at least 2 young men missed out on a chance to go the the WWCA state meet.

I feel this even has created 2 state championships here in the state. Varsity and JV. You should not be able to compete in both. Maybe my idea is not the answer but we must think about this and, I hope, not let that type of thing continue. Not fair to the true sub varsity.

I think this is a great thing for kids.  The thing is you are all talking about putting limits on kids being able to compete in it.  This is for the kids so why not let the kids compete.  Example our school is very small (250 kids) and we only have 6 guys on the team.  3 of those 6 should not be on varsity but are because we do not have the numbers.  Now with your stipulations our team must choose between having those 3 on varsity for a chance at beating a team, or saving them for JV so they can experience some success.  Those kids deserve to participate in both.  Now if a school has plenty of guys to fill a Varsity and JV team then ya they should not be allowed to compete in both, but you are hurting the small schools by limiting who can compete.  It should be left up to the coach.  He is the only person that knows if a kid is good enough to only be on varsity or if they are just on varsity because of low numbers.  This is just my opinion.

Typical fans and parents!!!!!!!   Everyone is simply focused on who is going to win or who is not.  The whole point seems to be to give JV type wrestlers a different type of venue/format to wrestle in that will excite them, keep them in the sport, motivate them, and prepare them for varsity.  Really the person that wins the whole thing is not going to get a much different experience than those that did not qualify.

I am pretty sure the coaches association did not do this so they can see who the best JV wrestler is out there.  Some of you sound like you want JV rankings.

I personally would love to see them take another step and add the team component.  The top scoring team from each regional (one wrestler per weight class- make only the matches from quarterfinals to finals as scoring bouts to even out different bracket sizes) should advance to a dual format state tourney just like the varsity guys.  Reward these teams with quality exciting duals.  Only wrestlers that competed in the challenge are eligible for the duals.

Quote from: Rush66 on January 12, 2015, 02:30:57 PM
I think this is a great thing for kids.  The thing is you are all talking about putting limits on kids being able to compete in it.  This is for the kids so why not let the kids compete.  Example our school is very small (250 kids) and we only have 6 guys on the team.  3 of those 6 should not be on varsity but are because we do not have the numbers.  Now with your stipulations our team must choose between having those 3 on varsity for a chance at beating a team, or saving them for JV so they can experience some success.  Those kids deserve to participate in both.  Now if a school has plenty of guys to fill a Varsity and JV team then ya they should not be allowed to compete in both, but you are hurting the small schools by limiting who can compete.  It should be left up to the coach.  He is the only person that knows if a kid is good enough to only be on varsity or if they are just on varsity because of low numbers.  This is just my opinion.

You shouldn't be allowed to compete in both..... Does it not seem fair to your situation.....possibly.  But your guys are getting varsity experience.  Without a rule the lines will be crossed.... And that will take away from the intent of this tournament and will take away from the wrestlers it was intended for.  Jmo!

Hard to make a rule for a tournament we have no control over - the WIAA Tournament Series.

The WWCA can only control the Challenge Series and that is before the Regionals/Sectionals, etc.

So again, unless the WIAA puts out a rule (which they won't) nothing can be done about it as the Challenge Series is before the State Series so the Rule has to be in place on the SECOND TOURNAMENT which it won't be.

If the Challenge Series makes a rule "You can't compete in WIAA Individual State Series if you enter here".....who is going to enforce that rule?   Nobody

Let's quit complaining about who wrestled in it and just be happy the coaches association took the initiative to do something GREAT for kids that aren't wrestling Varsity due to better wrestler over them or for kids that are on Varsity but outmatched get a shot to wrestle kids they can compete better with.

I can see a lot of support for this event, as well as interest in making it the best it can be.  Simplicity just might be the best course of action, though.  Lots of different ideas expressed here, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.  At least we're coming together to actually do something positive for sub-varsity wrestlers and the sport in general.  Keeping that mission foremost should provide appropriate guidance in future manifestations of this ideal.

I think the idea of " just don't worry about it" is what will kill an event like this.  Like any great idea once put into action there are always things that can be improved to make it better.  I have already heard one coach say he doesn't know if he will support it next year because it should have been a JV only tournament.  No there can not be any rules denying entrance into the WIAA tourney but the  WWCA certainly can put stipulations on who can compete based on prior results.  Setting a max number of varsity matches wrestled could be one, requiring at least one JV tournament prior to challenge series could be another, no one who places in top 8 or 12 in any varsity tournament that year or prior years could make them ineligible.  If coaches want or need to get their varsity wrestler more experience this is not the place....take them to a lower level varsity tournament.

As an outsider who has no horse in this race now, this is one of the best ideas our Coaches Association has backed. Another opportunity for wrestlers. Is it perfect? No. What tournament series is for everyone. This year will be my 40th State Wrestling Tournament I have worked. Everyone knows my whole agenda is about opportunity. Whether it be wrestlebacks or double elimination. All about another opportunity for a wrestler. As Administrators of tournaments, that is the best thing we can give our sport, and our athletes. Opportunity.

Quote from: woody53 on January 12, 2015, 06:09:18 PM
As an outsider who has no horse in this race now, this is one of the best ideas our Coaches Association has backed. Another opportunity for wrestlers. Is it perfect? No. What tournament series is for everyone. This year will be my 40th State Wrestling Tournament I have worked. Everyone knows my whole agenda is about opportunity. Whether it be wrestlebacks or double elimination. All about another opportunity for a wrestler. As Administrators of tournaments, that is the best thing we can give our sport, and our athletes. Opportunity.

+ 1,000,000...   

We just have to remember this a work in progress. I think it is a great event and are somethings we can change to make it even better. If we can give some good suggestions then we can get those changes made to benefit the JV wrestlers.

Well-stated and very PC, PCA.   8)

I just don't see how the rules on who was "eligible" as stated were that difficult to understand. Each coach knows who are varsity and non varsity kids on their roster. If you plan on him being in the line up at regionals then he is a varsity wrestler. Just because he may have missed an earlier tournament or you purposely held him out of a tough holiday tournament he is still a varsity wrestler.

I know I am arguing a specific instance, but our kid body fatted to 120. He cannot beat the 120. He cannot go down to 113, but he wouldn't beat that kid either. He cannot beat the 126, the 132, or the 138. I'm guessing he's a bit undersized to wrestle 145.

So he will wrestle in the regional, because the 120 and 113 are going to drop. 120 will then be open. So because he wrestled in the Challenge Series, I should keep him out and leave the spot empty? Not so much.

Maybe the anticipation of such situations led to the flexibility afforded coaches, when it comes to determining who they should allow to participate.  I think Ghetto is being very fair to his wrestler, as well as to the competition, given the situational specifics.  One thing to keep in mind is how many teams lack the numbers to fully exempt all sub-varsity kids from any varsity duty. 

I gotta say I've never heard the term "sub-varsity" before this whole challenge series. I always thought if you weren't Varsity, you were JV. I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out what the difference is between "sub-varsity" and JV is.

Coaches know who the varsity wrestlers are. True. Coaches also know who SHOULD be on varsity, and who is actually a JV caliber wrestler filling a space on varsity. There are so many different scenarios on why someone may or may not be on varsity or is wrestling JV and will be moving to varsity, etc.

Many teams have had 4 conference duals to this point. 3-4 tournaments. So lets say a kid has been filling a weight in the conference duals to avoid a FF in the dual so they have 4 varsity matches. They haven't wrestled any varsity tournaments. Even if the kid wrestled a early season tournament and went 0-2. So that kid shouldn't be allowed to wrestle in the challenge series because he's got 4-6 varsity matches when "Varsity" kids normally have 20+ by now?  Doesn't seem right to me. The coaches need to have the discretion at who should be able to wrestle.

If a kid that's been in the varsity line up in the past can't crack the lineup this year, what incentive does he have to stay out if he can't wrestle in the tournaments? What about the kids that go back and forth on wrestle-offs? If a kid had 7 or 8 varsity matches, then lost a wrestle-off, can he be in the Challenge Series? And if you put a restriction on that kid not being able to wrestle Regionals by participating, what incentive does he have to win or even compete in another wrestle-off to continue wrestling knowing he can't compete for the ultimate goal of our sport-making it to State and competing for a State Title?

If you start putting all these limits on who wrestles in the Challenge Series, it's not going to last. It's prohibiting participation. Teams won't put their kids in the tournament. Participation numbers drop. The tournament goes by the wayside. Gotta have faith that coaches will do what's right. IMO, 99% of the coaches in the state are going to be ethical about who they enter.

Great post, Crossface!   8)

I agree and disagree.  For one, injuries as we know happen at any time and in our particular case, it was the first half of the season.  So being a month away from Regionals, mat time is crucial to get it competition shape!  We all know that wrestling room shape and competition shape are way different and then you throw an injury in there, now that wrestler isn't in either shape.  Now tell me, have you ever seen a wrestler get better at wrestling when he wrestlers a worse opponent/opponent of less skill level?  I'm just going to use one example, at 152 in Wrightstown you had Donati TR & Krepline Kaukauna meet up in the semi-finals, both upper classmen, and BOTH sectional qualifiers from last year!  The match ended 5-3 in Donati's favor and who won is irrelevant, but the point I'm trying to make is there aren't many tournaments left at this point of the season, so if there is an opportunity to get some mat time to prepare for the end, as a coach you have to take that opportunity.  This series is a step in the right direction, it gives every kid involved something to shoot for or work for, and if they don't qualify, they figure what needs to be worked on for next year!  Everyone gets too caught up in winning and losing, medal or no medal, and so on, at the JV level it's about figuring things out, finding "their" move, and figuring out a way to be a successful wrestler.  I'll be honest and most will agree, there is a big difference from a weak Varsity tournament and a JV tournament, now is the time to bridge that gap while sitting behind a stud.  I got kids on the team that are 4-13, 2-6, 5-8, & 0-5 on varsity and on JV they are 6-2, 6-2, 5-0, & 7-2 respectively.  You run into hammers on varsity and occasionally you run into hammers on JV, the longer you wrestle with those guys, the better you get!  Quit complaining, using it as a learning experience, and move forward!

Quote from: crossface21 on January 12, 2015, 10:40:21 PM
I gotta say I've never heard the term "sub-varsity" before this whole challenge series. I always thought if you weren't Varsity, you were JV. I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out what the difference is between "sub-varsity" and JV is.

Coaches know who the varsity wrestlers are. True. Coaches also know who SHOULD be on varsity, and who is actually a JV caliber wrestler filling a space on varsity. There are so many different scenarios on why someone may or may not be on varsity or is wrestling JV and will be moving to varsity, etc.

Many teams have had 4 conference duals to this point. 3-4 tournaments. So lets say a kid has been filling a weight in the conference duals to avoid a FF in the dual so they have 4 varsity matches. They haven't wrestled any varsity tournaments. Even if the kid wrestled a early season tournament and went 0-2. So that kid shouldn't be allowed to wrestle in the challenge series because he's got 4-6 varsity matches when "Varsity" kids normally have 20+ by now?  Doesn't seem right to me. The coaches need to have the discretion at who should be able to wrestle.

If a kid that's been in the varsity line up in the past can't crack the lineup this year, what incentive does he have to stay out if he can't wrestle in the tournaments? What about the kids that go back and forth on wrestle-offs? If a kid had 7 or 8 varsity matches, then lost a wrestle-off, can he be in the Challenge Series? And if you put a restriction on that kid not being able to wrestle Regionals by participating, what incentive does he have to win or even compete in another wrestle-off to continue wrestling knowing he can't compete for the ultimate goal of our sport-making it to State and competing for a State Title?

If you start putting all these limits on who wrestles in the Challenge Series, it's not going to last. It's prohibiting participation. Teams won't put their kids in the tournament. Participation numbers drop. The tournament goes by the wayside. Gotta have faith that coaches will do what's right. IMO, 99% of the coaches in the state are going to be ethical about who they enter.

Im not buying the argument that it will die by setting restrictions. ...in fact I believe the opposite...that coaches will pull out if their jv guys are wrestling sectional qualfiers, cheesehead participants, wrestlers who have placed in top eight at varsity tourn as ments...... this is meant to develop jv wrestlers......not varsity wrestlers. There reslly should be limit on the number of varsity matches that can be wrestled prior to this tournament.  And for any voaches that wrestled sectional qualifiers in it....that is plane wrong.

Quote from: Kuhjo on January 13, 2015, 01:44:49 AM
I agree and disagree.  For one, injuries as we know happen at any time and in our particular case, it was the first half of the season.  So being a month away from Regionals, mat time is crucial to get it competition shape!  We all know that wrestling room shape and competition shape are way different and then you throw an injury in there, now that wrestler isn't in either shape.  Now tell me, have you ever seen a wrestler get better at wrestling when he wrestlers a worse opponent/opponent of less skill level?  I'm just going to use one example, at 152 in Wrightstown you had Donati TR & Krepline Kaukauna meet up in the semi-finals, both upper classmen, and BOTH sectional qualifiers from last year!  The match ended 5-3 in Donati's favor and who won is irrelevant, but the point I'm trying to make is there aren't many tournaments left at this point of the season, so if there is an opportunity to get some mat time to prepare for the end, as a coach you have to take that opportunity.  This series is a step in the right direction, it gives every kid involved something to shoot for or work for, and if they don't qualify, they figure what needs to be worked on for next year!  Everyone gets too caught up in winning and losing, medal or no medal, and so on, at the JV level it's about figuring things out, finding "their" move, and figuring out a way to be a successful wrestler.  I'll be honest and most will agree, there is a big difference from a weak Varsity tournament and a JV tournament, now is the time to bridge that gap while sitting behind a stud.  I got kids on the team that are 4-13, 2-6, 5-8, & 0-5 on varsity and on JV they are 6-2, 6-2, 5-0, & 7-2 respectively.  You run into hammers on varsity and occasionally you run into hammers on JV, the longer you wrestle with those guys, the better you get!  Quit complaining, using it as a learning experience, and move forward!

So because  you disagree you just totally disregard the rules that  were set in place?

If that was the rule "anyone who wrestles varsity can't participate" then instead of having 7 wrestlers there, we would have 0?  Now you tell me how that develops a wrestler?  And no I'm not saying because I disagree means we shouldn't follow the rules.  In fact, in the meetings I sat in on for this that exact question came up "What if there is a "varsity wrestler" that wants to participate?"  Exact answer "If he wants to be a "JV State Champ" that's entirely up to you, but it does count as 1 and/or 2 of the 7 tournaments participated in."  Obviously every coach out there is going to have a different opinion.  It's about developing wrestlers correct?  Whether it's in the short or long term, whether you wrestle JV wrestlers or varsity wrestlers, whatever the situation, you are developing.  Now if I team were to bring all of their varsity wrestlers just because, that I totally disagree with.  There are certain situations where some coaches feel mat time is definitely needed, so whatever tournaments they can do they, they should.  You have to go with what is available on your schedule.  This worked out for our current situation as I'm sure Kaukauna was also in that same boat.

I was at the Homestead regional on Saturday, and I will say that it was one of the more electric tournaments at any level.  There was an air of excitement that I have never seen at a JV level tournament, coaches, wrestlers and spectators really getting into the matches.  The place match round was extremely exciting for all involved.  Kudos to the WWCA for putting this together!!!!!  Were there hiccups, or course, happens everywhere.  But look at it as it was...  almost 1400 kids wrestling in a tournament on the same day for the same purpose.  To me that is incredible.  I was a doubter when I first heard about it, and now that I have seen it, I am a 1000% supporter.  Everyone will have their gripes about this guy or that guy shouldn't be in it, or this shouldn't be used for that...  But honestly that could be said about any tournament at any level.  I heard of a JV round robin earlier in the year that had HWT kids bracketed together who all weighed around or over 300 lbs.  Are all of you on here going to complain that they shouldn't have wrestled.  Technically they were all over weight, and shouldn't have.  But why take away their chance?  Who knows......  argue away on it.  But the bottom line I have, this series is a WONDERFUL thing and should be kept going.  Kudos WWCA, Kudos!!!

I am not sure that you could realistically set up restrictions on who can participate as this event is not actually governed by the WIAA.  I think you have to rely on the integrity of the coaches & the fact that I doubt any HC wants his program to get a reputation of using this series as way to get varsity caliber kids some cheap wins. 

I will offer to those such as Ghetto that are facing a dilemma of what to do with a varsity caliber kid that isn't good enough to win the team spot at his weight, there is another option.  I spoke with one coach who has 3 kids that he felt were not really JV kids, but due to being deep at these weight classes they are not in his varsity line-up.  He has been sending them as a team to wrestle unattached at varsity tournaments at their ideal weight.  Most tournaments have at least one spot open at every weight class & so far he has not had a problem finding them varsity competition.  Instead of sending them to the regional series this weekend, he sent them to a varsity tournament. 

I am reiterating what others have said but I said I would get back about this in another post regarding our 9th Grade and Under League.
Our conference started a jv conference tournament some years ago.  It has since changed in that it is not just our conference teams, it has expanded somewhat.
The basic rule is a max of 12-13 varsity matches.
Coaches are expected to use their judgement in the way Ghetto explained in his post.
A jv kid at a tough school might be a varsity wrestler everywhere else but that's the way it is. (behind a state place winner, etc.)
As Ghetto also pointed out, some schools "varsity" wrestlers really aren't.
I do think it is improper to use a tournament like this to enter a legitimate varsity kid because they missed a tournament due to injury or illness.  This goes against the intent, don't you think?

Well said badger

Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series 2015 Finals Time Changes
OFFICIAL TIME CHANGE: Wausau West Finals
WWCS "Finals" Weigh In 9:30am and Wrestling 10:00am
Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series
http://www.wiwrestling.com/wwca/challenge/2015.htm

Quote from: Kuhjo on January 13, 2015, 09:17:22 AM
If that was the rule "anyone who wrestles varsity can't participate" then instead of having 7 wrestlers there, we would have 0?  Now you tell me how that develops a wrestler?  And no I'm not saying because I disagree means we shouldn't follow the rules.  In fact, in the meetings I sat in on for this that exact question came up "What if there is a "varsity wrestler" that wants to participate?"  Exact answer "If he wants to be a "JV State Champ" that's entirely up to you, but it does count as 1 and/or 2 of the 7 tournaments participated in."  Obviously every coach out there is going to have a different opinion.  It's about developing wrestlers correct?  Whether it's in the short or long term, whether you wrestle JV wrestlers or varsity wrestlers, whatever the situation, you are developing.  Now if I team were to bring all of their varsity wrestlers just because, that I totally disagree with.  There are certain situations where some coaches feel mat time is definitely needed, so whatever tournaments they can do they, they should.  You have to go with what is available on your schedule.  This worked out for our current situation as I'm sure Kaukauna was also in that same boat.

If your seven wrestlers are varsity then yes you should have zero there.....the tournament is not intended for every school to have at least 7 wrestlers....it's intended to develop JV wrestlers....period! Just because a varsity wrestler wants to be a JV state champ doesn't mean the coach should should let him....put him in a varsity tourney and let him wrestle to be a champ there.  I do think there are some situations that makes it hard to say who goes and who doesn't.  But I am sure sectional qualifiers should not. I am sure if your wrestling your guy on all your varsity dual meets and he is winning matches then he most likely should not.  The WWCA needs to make a hard and fast rule that must be followed.....wether it's a match count or what ever.  But the integrity of developing only JV wrestlers must be the most important issue.

We can go on and on about this and never change minds but the only opinion that really matters is the folks who put this tournament on. The WWCA set some basic guidelines leaving a lot up to the discretion of the coach who to send. Now it will be up to them to either restate it in another more specific way for next year or leave it as is. I for one hope it is restated in a way that makes it clear that this is for "JV caliber" wrestlers only. Maybe they fill a varsity spot for dual meets, maybe they filled in while the #1 kid was out, but coaches know who is JV caliber and who is a varsity wrestler on their team.

Quote from: hasbeen on January 14, 2015, 11:08:42 AM
We can go on and on about this and never change minds but the only opinion that really matters is the folks who put this tournament on. The WWCA set some basic guidelines leaving a lot up to the discretion of the coach who to send. Now it will be up to them to either restate it in another more specific way for next year or leave it as is. I for one hope it is restated in a way that makes it clear that this is for "JV caliber" wrestlers only. Maybe they fill a varsity spot for dual meets, maybe they filled in while the #1 kid was out, but coaches know who is JV caliber and who is a varsity wrestler on their team.

Correct.  The coaches are the ones that know and we have to trust them to make the proper decision.   Even if the rule is there, what it a coach decides to send them anyway?  If a coach is going to send a varsity caliber kid, I doubt a match rule would deter some of them from sending them anyway.   Plus, it's hard to track a varsity match, not all are recorded somewhere for everyone to see.

Just because you qualified for sectionals doesn't mean you are a Varsity caliber wrestler.  In D1 last year, there were almost 20 brackets that had 4 kids or under so they all went to sectionals and around 35 had 5 so all but 1 went then.  I am sure plenty of D2 & D3 regionals had 3-4 kids at also.

Quote from: foose4 on January 14, 2015, 11:21:31 AM

Quote from: hasbeen on January 14, 2015, 11:08:42 AM
We can go on and on about this and never change minds but the only opinion that really matters is the folks who put this tournament on. The WWCA set some basic guidelines leaving a lot up to the discretion of the coach who to send. Now it will be up to them to either restate it in another more specific way for next year or leave it as is. I for one hope it is restated in a way that makes it clear that this is for "JV caliber" wrestlers only. Maybe they fill a varsity spot for dual meets, maybe they filled in while the #1 kid was out, but coaches know who is JV caliber and who is a varsity wrestler on their team.

Correct.  The coaches are the ones that know and we have to trust them to make the proper decision.   Even if the rule is there, what it a coach decides to send them anyway?  If a coach is going to send a varsity caliber kid, I doubt a match rule would deter some of them from sending them anyway.   Plus, it's hard to track a varsity match, not all are recorded somewhere for everyone to see.

Just because you qualified for sectionals doesn't mean you are a Varsity caliber wrestler.  In D1 last year, there were almost 20 brackets that had 4 kids or under so they all went to sectionals and around 35 had 5 so all but 1 went then.  I am sure plenty of D2 & D3 regionals had 3-4 kids at also.

When Division I first started taking 4 kids to sectionals, I remember a kid advancing with ZERO wins.  He got eliminated first round, finishing the year with ZERO wins, but he was still as sectional qualifier. 

Really...your going to try to argue that sectional qualifiers should be allowed to wrestle in the challenge series? That's rediculous.....I suppose you also think it's ok to wrestle an 8th grader in the 5th and 6th grade division? Come on guys...it's JV state....not varsity that's not a stud.  Next you want state qualifiers claiming their sectional was week.  There has to be a line drawn......

Yes, a sectional qualifier that isn't a varsity caliber wrestler.  There are exceptions to every rule.

And by the way, there is quite the difference from a 5-16 sophomore wrestler who doesn't win a match at sectionals and a 8th grader wrestling 5/6 grade.

Quote from: foose4 on January 14, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Yes, a sectional qualifier that isn't a varsity caliber wrestler.  There are exceptions to every rule.

And by the way, there is quite the difference from a 5-16 sophomore wrestler who doesn't win a match at sectionals and a 8th grader wrestling 5/6 grade.

How there a difference?  That 8th grader wants to win?  Your confusing this tournament as a way to improve your varsity wrestler....it is not....it's to improve JV wrestlers only....not varsity wrestlers that are not studs.

Wow...try to do anything good and then of course let the arguing begin.  Why does Aarons care?  Has nothing to do with sending kids but just likes to argue.

Not sure if the Stratford lighter weights went....but to me they had every right to as they cannot crack the varsity line-up but could possibly be state placewinners.  A coach should not call them JV by what some are saying?  Again...it all depends on the team and many times a caliber of a team as I'm sure Kaukauna, Stoughton and many others are in the same situation.  I'm quite sure most teams won't use up two dates for a kid that has wrestled varsity most of the year.  Many teams will run into Ghettos situation as the end of the year nears...the kid is not a varsity wrestler at this point...which means he is sub-varsity.

Half of you sound like the dad at the youth tournament that wants to get his kid the first place trophy and is afraid of the good kids and losses.  If you are afraid of competition your kids will be too.

Quote from: aarons23 on January 14, 2015, 01:35:46 PM

Quote from: foose4 on January 14, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Yes, a sectional qualifier that isn't a varsity caliber wrestler.  There are exceptions to every rule.

And by the way, there is quite the difference from a 5-16 sophomore wrestler who doesn't win a match at sectionals and a 8th grader wrestling 5/6 grade.

How there a difference?  That 8th grader wants to win?  Your confusing this tournament as a way to improve your varsity wrestler....it is not....it's to improve JV wrestlers only....not varsity wrestlers that are not studs.

You are confusing this also.  Not every team has 14 varsity kids.  Some might wrestle 10-12 but only 5-6 are "varsity" wrestlers.  The others are there because they are the only kids in their room at that weight, but that doesn't make them a "varsity" wrestler, it makes them a "JV" wrestler that gets put out there because that is all they have.   We have had people complain before about kids wrestling JV but then forfeiting that spot at Varsity.  Not all rooms can put together a 14 person "varsity" roster.  

Before we get any more hot and bothered by this, let's see how many kids that wrestled last weekend and next weekend who first, attempt to qualify at regionals and second, actually get thru to sectionals.  Then we will know who took advantage of the Challenge Series.

It would not be that hard to simply set some parameters and then coaches could simply petition to allow a kid in.  A sectional qualifier can be JV the next year but that is an exception and coaches could easily petition

I do remember Ashwaubenon had 4 state qualifiers, maybe even placewinners at the 4 upper weights when VanLaanen and Mike Taylor were there and the next year they all grew and there were only 3 spots for them and one got squeezed out to JV as a senior.  Should he be allowed to compete?

99% of the kids were likely sub-varsity wrestlers.  Set some parameters and just make coaches petition to bring those kids that were in that 1% that everyone seems to complain about.  Pretty simple for the coaches association to nominate five coaches to oversee petitions and decide.  Just an informal watch dog group to maintain the integrity of the event.

Quote from: DocWrestling on January 14, 2015, 02:00:45 PM
It would not be that hard to simply set some parameters and then coaches could simply petition to allow a kid in.  A sectional qualifier can be JV the next year but that is an exception and coaches could easily petition

I do remember Ashwaubenon had 4 state qualifiers, maybe even placewinners at the 4 upper weights when VanLaanen and Mike Taylor were there and the next year they all grew and there were only 3 spots for them and one got squeezed out to JV as a senior.  Should he be allowed to compete?

99% of the kids were likely sub-varsity wrestlers.  Set some parameters and just make coaches petition to bring those kids that were in that 1% that everyone seems to complain about.  Pretty simple for the coaches association to nominate five coaches to oversee petitions and decide.  Just an informal watch dog group to maintain the integrity of the event.

Exactly...the way it is now coaches can do what ever they want......some used it on varsity kids to make varsity kids better....that's not the intent of the tournament.  To many are trying to make excuses for wrestlers competing on varsity just to let them wrestle in a JV state.  No way should sectional qualifiers be allowed to wrestle in JV state.  By many standards any one who didn't make it to state should be allowed to wrestle in it....if that's the case it's not a JV event....it's a second chance state tournament.....not what it was attended.

The way I see it, this tourney is to get more matches for all the hard-working wrestlers who may be very good but not good enough to crack a lineup. He does not then get to compete in meets and tourneys . Some top teams have very good backups or JV that do not get to wrestle very many matches during the season. Some may quit. Now the timing of this tourney is the thing that makes some things look unfair. A wrestler like Ghetto has sat much of the time behind better ones in his weight class. Now if they drop and he becomes varsity by the end of the year , but after this JV tourney, then he was not a varsity wrestler when he competed . There are a lot of wrestlers on many teams that are filling open spaces but probably should be on a freshman team. I see where many of them did not compete in this JV state tourney but competed in other tourneys that their varsity went to. Some I see did not win a match on varsity , but they still had matches to compete in. Without this JV tourney a lot of promising wrestlers would not have any competition at all. This is a great way to keep more kids involved and something to look forward to each year if they see better wrestlers, that they are trying to work hard to beat, coming back on their team next year.

Quote from: aarons23 on January 14, 2015, 12:36:33 PM
Really...your going to try to argue that sectional qualifiers should be allowed to wrestle in the challenge series? That's rediculous.....I suppose you also think it's ok to wrestle an 8th grader in the 5th and 6th grade division? Come on guys...it's JV state....not varsity that's not a stud.  Next you want state qualifiers claiming their sectional was week.  There has to be a line drawn......

Make the determination on a kid's current situation, rather than what it was in past years.  Today's reality is all that is really relevant and coaches should know that reality better than others.  They should also be honest and trustworthy enough to choose their participants in the spirit of the event's objectives.  One question that I wonder about is whether this discussion would occur if there was no "state tournament."  Not saying I am for or against it; just wondering what (if any) impact that feature plays in how we are approaching this series.

It should be for a JV wrestler or even a varsity wrestler IF he is JV caliber but holds the spot on varsity be default.

NOT for getting your varsity guy into mat shape. Manty has a few guys on varsity that are clearly JV caliber but wrestle for the team because they don't have the bodies yet. They take a beating at times so the WWCA series is great for them.

The series is for these wrestlers to compete against others closer to their skill level so they can stay interested in the sport and help their development.

The young men in question, have plenty of competition on their own squad or in up coming events to be prepared for Regionals without this tournament. To me, It's clearly not meant for wrestlers as good as they are. I actually think both guys may qualify for state, varsity state.

Now I am not going to go back and read the last 9 pages of this but I do have 2 questions.

first question

If somebody wrestles in the challenge series can they still wrestle at regionals as long as they do not go over their tournament limit?

second question

I had a first year wrestler start the season on varsity simply because he was the only wrestler at that weight on our team.  He wrestled 2 tournaments and 1 duel meet on varsity.  After that we had somebody else change weights and he moved down to JV were he belongs.

Well after the qualifying tournament where my wrestler qualified for the second round the wrestler who originally took his spot quit allowing him to get his sport back on varsity.

This wrestler would be a JV wrestler on most teams, but do to our numbers he is back on varsity.  Will him competing in the challenge series affect his eligibility for regionals.

IF he is back on Varsity, I would drop him and allow a  different JV wrestler take his spot at the Challenge Series Finals that took 4th at the regional.

Now their is also a very good chance that come conference and regional he will be back down on JV because of people above him dropping a weight.  would that change your opinion at all? 

I dont want to be the coach sending varsity kids to the final round of the challenge series but at the same time I dont want to take the final round of the challenge series away from a kid and then have him miss conference and regional because everybody drops and he is off of varsity.

Use your best judgement coach. You know your kids better than anyone else. If you think he is of a varsity caliber, keep him home. Just make sure you are aware of his event numbers.

I think coaches have to go with their best judgment and we all have to realize that situations can change at the drop of a hat.  I remember 2 kids from my old high school team (two different years, ancient history, different state) that were underclassmen without any varsity experience, yet got thrown into the regional at the last minute because the varsity kid got hurt.  Both surprised everyone by going to state and one placed third.  The other one was third the next year and won state his senior year.  These kids were good JV kids, but they had a few losses, so nobody expected this from them.  Another kid was JV until his Sr. year, but upset a 3 time state champ and qualified for state that year.  I'm sure there are lots of such cases out there, which shows that there are no guarantees in this sport, regardless of how well you know your kids. 

Some guys wrestle better in front of a crowd.

Quote from: thequad on January 17, 2015, 05:11:58 PM
Some guys wrestle better in front of a crowd.

So true!  Some guys can't win the wrestle off, but outperform the kid they can't beat, when they get a chance to compete.

...or narcissistic interpretations/judgments of others' actions.