Re: heroin

[bigoil]

"I'm not going to die or be severely impaired from having a Sam Adam's Cherry Wheat.  There is certainly no "safe" way to use heroin."


Simply not true.

There is a staggering difference between the two drugs as far as death, safety, social cost.  Alcohohol dwarfs heroin in all areas, period.

If you are saying as a total cost or which is a more common problem, fine, you can make that argument.

If you are saying its better to use heroin than alcohol, that's just ridiculous.

I work with addiction at an AODA treatment center 4 days a week, I'm not just making this stuff up.  Let me ask it this way I said earlier if my son asked me if he should do marijuana or alcohol I would say cannabis (probably and obviously a hypothetical) but if you were asked the same thing about heroin or alcohol would you seriously say heroin?

and I just can't resist saying it.  We have the teacher who told us that only educators knew about education telling the psychologist who works in an AODA treatment center and the Masters level therapist who I'm betting is seeing plenty of addiction issues,  how wrong they are about heroin and alcohol.  Sorry, couldn't resist bring it up, it was just too easy.

You weren't the only one thinking it.....

[MNbadger]

My point is that some are panicking about heroin.  We have little concern in regard to what alcohol does to society, families, finance, physical health, mental health, etc.  In this regard, there is no comparison between the two.  I say we have little concern as our behavior toward and with alcohol proves it.  Good gosh, it wasn't that long ago that I saw yard signs in WI urging parents/adults not to buy alcohol for minors.  We really need to convince people this is a bad idea (not to mention illegal)? 

[MNbadger]

As a psychologist or not, the cost to society between the two isn't even comparable.  We are just willing as a society to be ok with it.

[jaguarwrestler]

late to the party

I think alcohol and food addiction cost more lives and more to the society than any drugs.... they just socially acceptable so we don't really do much about it

[maggie]

good point Jag...

[Todd]

The numbers were comparing alcohol to ALL other drugs combined.  I am fully aware of the greater damage alcohol does.  This was my point of bringing it up.  Heroin is nothing compared to alcohol. 

I'm not going to die or be severely impaired from having a Sam Adam's Cherry Wheat.  There is certainly no "safe" way to use heroin.

Ironically, you won't die from Heroin withdraw (although you may wish you were dead) but you can from alcohol withdraw.  Which is why medicaid often won't pay for opioid detox since its not "medically necessary" like alcohol withdraw is.

True dat.  Alcohol can kill you going in AND coming out.  Heroin only in.

[Todd]

"I'm not going to die or be severely impaired from having a Sam Adam's Cherry Wheat.  There is certainly no "safe" way to use heroin."


Simply not true.

There is a staggering difference between the two drugs as far as death, safety, social cost.  Alcohohol dwarfs heroin in all areas, period.

Are you telling me that socially drinking vs. herion use ETOH is the more dangerous and costly one societal wise?
Give me a break.  Again, I can have a beer and actually it's got some nutritional or health benefits, the same can not be said for heroin.  There is zero safe or recreational way to use it. 

[Todd]

"I'm not going to die or be severely impaired from having a Sam Adam's Cherry Wheat.  There is certainly no "safe" way to use heroin."


Simply not true.

There is a staggering difference between the two drugs as far as death, safety, social cost.  Alcohohol dwarfs heroin in all areas, period.

If you are saying as a total cost or which is a more common problem, fine, you can make that argument.

If you are saying its better to use heroin than alcohol, that's just ridiculous.

I work with addiction at an AODA treatment center 4 days a week, I'm not just making this stuff up.  Let me ask it this way I said earlier if my son asked me if he should do marijuana or alcohol I would say cannabis (probably and obviously a hypothetical) but if you were asked the same thing about heroin or alcohol would you seriously say heroin?

and I just can't resist saying it.  We have the teacher who told us that only educators knew about education telling the psychologist who works in an AODA treatment center and the Masters level therapist who I'm betting is seeing plenty of addiction issues,  how wrong they are about heroin and alcohol.  Sorry, couldn't resist bring it up, it was just too easy.

I'm not going to throw that in his face but he's dead wrong on this issue.  If you look at the totality of health and societal problems of ETOH vs. Heroin yes but as I said I can use alcohol recreationally, and with some health benefits but there is zero I repeat zero way to use Heroin, meth and I'll throw in Cocain recreationally.  If you put THC and ETOH on an equal level legally, I think that in terms of societal cost Alcohol is worse and I agree with your analogy about your son.  Badger is just wrong on this.

[Todd]

My point is that some are panicking about heroin.  We have little concern in regard to what alcohol does to society, families, finance, physical health, mental health, etc.  In this regard, there is no comparison between the two.  I say we have little concern as our behavior toward and with alcohol proves it.  Good gosh, it wasn't that long ago that I saw yard signs in WI urging parents/adults not to buy alcohol for minors.  We really need to convince people this is a bad idea (not to mention illegal)?  

Alcohol can be used in moderation.  You legalize Heroin and then what?  If people used heroin to the extent that alcohol is used/abused you would see an epidemic of deaths not seen in this country.

[bigoil]

"I'm not going to die or be severely impaired from having a Sam Adam's Cherry Wheat.  There is certainly no "safe" way to use heroin."


Simply not true.

There is a staggering difference between the two drugs as far as death, safety, social cost.  Alcohohol dwarfs heroin in all areas, period.

If you are saying as a total cost or which is a more common problem, fine, you can make that argument.

If you are saying its better to use heroin than alcohol, that's just ridiculous.

I work with addiction at an AODA treatment center 4 days a week, I'm not just making this stuff up.  Let me ask it this way I said earlier if my son asked me if he should do marijuana or alcohol I would say cannabis (probably and obviously a hypothetical) but if you were asked the same thing about heroin or alcohol would you seriously say heroin?

and I just can't resist saying it.  We have the teacher who told us that only educators knew about education telling the psychologist who works in an AODA treatment center and the Masters level therapist who I'm betting is seeing plenty of addiction issues,  how wrong they are about heroin and alcohol.  Sorry, couldn't resist bring it up, it was just too easy.

I'm not going to throw that in his face but he's dead wrong on this issue.  If you look at the totality of health and societal problems of ETOH vs. Heroin yes but as I said I can use alcohol recreationally, and with some health benefits but there is zero I repeat zero way to use Heroin, meth and I'll throw in Cocain recreationally.  If you put THC and ETOH on an equal level legally, I think that in terms of societal cost Alcohol is worse and I agree with your analogy about your son.  Badger is just wrong on this.

and even that is a guess in relation to THC because it isn't legal and we don't know what the use would be if it were legal vs alcohol which has been legal since 1930.

[Todd]

As a psychologist or not, the cost to society between the two isn't even comparable.  We are just willing as a society to be ok with it.

What do you think the cost of adult pornography is to society for those who can't control urges, go on to rape, abuse women?  Gambling?  Over eating? Etc Etc.

Are you arguing for prohibition of alcohol or legalization of serious dangerous narcotics because if you equalized the amount of usage of heroin to alcohol the deaths in this country would be off the charts.  Are you that stubborn in your argument that you honestly believe there is a safe way to use heroin and it should be legalized??

[bigG]

I couldn't help but notice when I lived in South America, that coca leaves, marijuana and opium were essentially legal (cops would never bother with any of that). Talking to my SA family, they contended that those items are in their natural state, and not condensed or manipulated by chemicals to make them stronger. They were strict non-drug, but had no issue with people growing and consuming their own stuff. Almost impossible to OD on those items; I'm guessing. I thought it was common sensical and saved tax money to not pursue such things in the legal system. Take opium and refine it, you get a scary drug (heroin), same with cocaine (I learned it white form the acid used to refine the active ingredient). I suppose condensed marijuana would be hash. I don't know of much in the way of research; but if it were to save many tax dollars , it might be worthwhile to check into such a potential policy.

I'm pretty far -removed from drug culture; but I did notice in MPS, one of the leading contributors to drop out was marijuana usage.

If you work in a jail, though, it is blatantly obvious that alcohol makes them all look like Cheezits in terms of societal impact. From a health standpoint tobacco is similar.

Meth heads are scary; but no more scary than the down-and-out drunk.

That said, I do like beer and wine. I didn't know many inmates that could just settle for either. Hit the real sauce and they were just stupid; over and over. Sad to see a person lose their family, belongings, etc., and the efficacy of being a parent.

I'm ready for a glass of iced tea. Si doesn't seem THAT messed up.

[DrSnide]

late to the party

I think alcohol and food addiction cost more lives and more to the society than any drugs.... they just socially acceptable so we don't really do much about it

Once again, I don't think anyone is arguing that alcohol and food addiction have a higher total cost to society, not one person has said that is not the case.  In fact I think that's exactly what people have been saying. Keep in mind that part of the reason its socially acceptable is that they are both legal.  So legalizing heroin would just serve to increase the social acceptance of heroin. 

The point being made is on an individual level heroin is more devastating than cannabis or alcohol.  When i see full blown alcoholics needing help for their addiciton they are typically late middle age.  The average heroin addict we see in treatment is in their mid 20's.  Why?  Because heroin is simply a more addictive, dangerous substance to put in your body.

Again, if your kid asked if they should start using alcohol, cannabis, or heroin what would you tell them?

[jaguarwrestler]

as I said late to the party... didn't read all posts

I think heroin is potentially the most dangerous... but the others are much more widely used because they are part of everyday society so they hurt more.

[DrSnide]

as I said late to the party... didn't read all posts

I think heroin is potentially the most dangerous... but the others are much more widely used because they are part of everyday society so they hurt more.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.  Trust me, I see plenty of damage from alcohol in peoples lives, heck, I've lived it both as the one drinking and as the family member affected by it noone needs to remind me how much it can affect peoples lives.