WI Wt. Classes - (MN dropping weight classes)

[DocWrestling]

College is successful with 10 weights.  I do not hear any movement for more weight classes although I would love to see a 210 or 215 weight class.

I am old school where I was in a program you had to earn your spot.  Fewer wrestlers and more weight classes and now we give away spots and take away that pride to be a varsity wrestler.

The best programs have great wrestlers on JV waiting their turn.  They are not quitting because they don't have an opportunity to wrestle varsity right away.  They know they will have to earn it and it makes those teams much better. 

At less successful programs and lower in numbers we think we have to give away varsity spots to keep them and that snowball just keeps getting worse.

The best programs are the programs with JV teams.  Those kids are working hard because they want to be varsity.  That makes wrestling better.

I would love to find out the number of wrestlers that have wrestled varsity and then quit. They were given the spot, had no pride in earning it because they weighed the right amount, and then got whipped and quit.

Everyone is worried about opportunities for small freshman like they might quit.  Truth is there are way more freshman that weigh 125+ that are wrestling JV because they are not as strong and mature as an upperclassmen.  Do they all quit because they do not have a varsity opportunity?

Oddly enough I think wrestling would have higher numbers if they had fewer weight classes and freshman could not wrestle varsity.  Maybe that is my old school thoughts because when I was in HS we had junior high and high school and the freshman were at the junior high and the program was separate from the high school program.  Maybe an occasional freshman would go work out with the high school team but otherwise the freshman wrestled in duals with the 7th and 8th graders.  We had a HS varsity team and JV team just with 10th-12th graders and had two junior highs so had two freshman teams with enough guys for middle school duals

[littleguy301]

Taking away opportunities from kids. Not good for the sport.

Same number of opportunities. There's this thing called JV for those who aren't on varsity.

No actually there are 40 less state qualifiers with 13 weight classes, 16 less sectional champions, etc.

How many less Forfeits?

Don't think this changes forfeits. This will affect individuals. Want better duals? Go to 12 weight classes and get rid of 106 and 195. Individual tournaments shouldn't be affected. 

Why those 2?

Let's get rid of the 3 most forfeited weight classes?

Yup the 3 lightest classes! Yup let's cut!

Never ending arguement for sure!

[panther93]

Forfeits are just a part of wrestling.  A team can have 20+ kids and still forfeit a weight.  My team had 26 this season and still have to forfeit 113 and sometimes 120 while I had good kids sitting JV at other weights. Just a fact of the sport. 

Looking at data and tournaments that we have been to the last two years 113 and 195 have been the two weights with the least amount of wrestlers.  106 has actually been almost full at every tournament and my 6 pounder has one forfeit this season. 

13 will be my vote at the end of the season.

[hornbuckleb]

What I really don't understand with the main stream posters is on one hand they are upset with so called opportunities lost, but on the other hand they are the first to want to take away the only opportunities some have.

Getting rid of any of the lower weights is just plain and simple as stupid as it gets!  Yep take away the only opportunity those kids get in high school sports.  How many 106lb kids are on the football field?  How many 106lb kids are standing on first base and hitting 250 feet bombs into right field.  Not too many opportunities for men's gymnastics in Wisconsin High schools.  I know lets get rid of the lower weights and make them managers.  Heck why not just let them clean some of your chalk boards!!

There is plenty of opportunities in high school sports for those big kids that they can excel at....  I get it..you all wanted those football players on the team right.  Some are exceptional athletes, but some are not and they end up just plugging a hole a light heavy.

As I stated before take the college weights and add 2, 3 or 4 below, but don't take opportunities away from someone just because they are small.

I wonder what Spencer Lee would be doing right now if all of you keyboard cowboys had your way.

By the way: No dogs in the fight anymore, but all of my boys were bigs!!

[bigoil]

What I really don't understand with the main stream posters is on one hand they are upset with so called opportunities lost, but on the other hand they are the first to want to take away the only opportunities some have.

Getting rid of any of the lower weights is just plain and simple as stupid as it gets!  Yep take away the only opportunity those kids get in high school sports.  How many 106lb kids are on the football field?  How many 106lb kids are standing on first base and hitting 250 feet bombs into right field.  Not too many opportunities for men's gymnastics in Wisconsin High schools.  I know lets get rid of the lower weights and make them managers.  Heck why not just let them clean some of your chalk boards!!

There is plenty of opportunities in high school sports for those big kids that they can excel at....  I get it..you all wanted those football players on the team right.  Some are exceptional athletes, but some are not and they end up just plugging a hole a light heavy.

As I stated before take the college weights and add 2, 3 or 4 below, but don't take opportunities away from someone just because they are small.

I wonder what Spencer Lee would be doing right now if all of you keyboard cowboys had your way.

By the way: No dogs in the fight anymore, but all of my boys were bigs!!

How many seniors are 106? Juniors?

Quite a few 106 # freshman play football on the freshman team.

I love the little guys, I think one of the upper weights could be culled like MN did, and for transparency purposes, that's where my son wrestled.

[MNbadger]

What I really don't understand with the main stream posters is on one hand they are upset with so called opportunities lost, but on the other hand they are the first to want to take away the only opportunities some have.

Getting rid of any of the lower weights is just plain and simple as stupid as it gets!  Yep take away the only opportunity those kids get in high school sports.  How many 106lb kids are on the football field?  How many 106lb kids are standing on first base and hitting 250 feet bombs into right field.  Not too many opportunities for men's gymnastics in Wisconsin High schools.  I know lets get rid of the lower weights and make them managers.  Heck why not just let them clean some of your chalk boards!!

There is plenty of opportunities in high school sports for those big kids that they can excel at....  I get it..you all wanted those football players on the team right.  Some are exceptional athletes, but some are not and they end up just plugging a hole a light heavy.

As I stated before take the college weights and add 2, 3 or 4 below, but don't take opportunities away from someone just because they are small.

I wonder what Spencer Lee would be doing right now if all of you keyboard cowboys had your way.

By the way: No dogs in the fight anymore, but all of my boys were bigs!!

How many seniors are 106? Juniors?

Quite a few 106 # freshman play football on the freshman team.

I love the little guys, I think one of the upper weights could be culled like MN did, and for transparency purposes, that's where my son wrestled.

From the CDC (updated 2021):
5% of 14.5 year old males (freshman) weigh under 90 pounds.
10% of 14.5 year old males (freshman)weigh 95 pounds.
25% of 14.5 year old males (freshman) weigh 106 pounds.
10% of 15.5 year old males (sophomore) weigh 106 pounds.
5% of 16.5 year old males (juniors) weigh under 100 pounds.
Remember, this is examining 9-12 grade males.  If you include 7-8 th the numbers are even lower.  I believe allowing 7-8th graders makes our sport stronger and better in quality.
Some believe varsity sports are for upperclassmen.  Then yes, cut the lower weights.  I do not believe this.  Additionally, if we want to discourage underclassmen, we will only have a worse time with overall numbers.

[hornbuckleb]

What I really don't understand with the main stream posters is on one hand they are upset with so called opportunities lost, but on the other hand they are the first to want to take away the only opportunities some have.

Getting rid of any of the lower weights is just plain and simple as stupid as it gets!  Yep take away the only opportunity those kids get in high school sports.  How many 106lb kids are on the football field?  How many 106lb kids are standing on first base and hitting 250 feet bombs into right field.  Not too many opportunities for men's gymnastics in Wisconsin High schools.  I know lets get rid of the lower weights and make them managers.  Heck why not just let them clean some of your chalk boards!!

There is plenty of opportunities in high school sports for those big kids that they can excel at....  I get it..you all wanted those football players on the team right.  Some are exceptional athletes, but some are not and they end up just plugging a hole a light heavy.

As I stated before take the college weights and add 2, 3 or 4 below, but don't take opportunities away from someone just because they are small.

I wonder what Spencer Lee would be doing right now if all of you keyboard cowboys had your way.

By the way: No dogs in the fight anymore, but all of my boys were bigs!!

How many seniors are 106? Juniors?

Quite a few 106 # freshman play football on the freshman team.

I love the little guys, I think one of the upper weights could be culled like MN did, and for transparency purposes, that's where my son wrestled.

Not saying they don't play just saying their opportunities are already limited.  Most boys are excited to play coming into high school, but the sport is designed for the bigs...right!

[MNbadger]

I want to point out something I see as illogical.  Some argue that retraction is not taking away opportunities as the displaced wrestlers can go to JV.  We already have JV and we are constantly clamoring that we "used to have" full JV and so on (we never did growing up in northern WI).
So, since we already have JV and coaches work tirelessly to get these JV kids matches(I know we do) and we are decreasing varsity opportunities, it is a net loss no matter how you slice it.

[Ghetto]

One of the things that is so scary for those who don't want to change the weights, I believe, is the ocean liner pace in which we change direction. When will we (coaches, WIAA, etc.) revisit to see if the data has changed forfeits, slowed the annual decline in wrestlers, etc.

Is this even being tracked now? How will we be able to measure this data? Is there a way within Trackwrestling that they can pull data from duals to see how many FFs there are without someone combing through every dual?

The reason I've always advocated for 12 is that the large majority has been able to fill those weights at regionals. It's the one time we can look at numbers across the state.

Again, if anyone has access to a person at Flowrestling who I can talk to, I am happy to continue putting the data together.

[Ghetto]

I want to point out something I see as illogical.  Some argue that retraction is not taking away opportunities as the displaced wrestlers can go to JV.  We already have JV and we are constantly clamoring that we "used to have" full JV and so on (we never did growing up in northern WI).
So, since we already have JV and coaches work tirelessly to get these JV kids matches(I know we do) and we are decreasing varsity opportunities, it is a net loss no matter how you slice it.

Maybe this is a regional thing, but our JV kids get FAR more matches than kids did "back in the day".

[MNbadger]

One of the things that is so scary for those who don't want to change the weights, I believe, is the ocean liner pace in which we change direction. When will we (coaches, WIAA, etc.) revisit to see if the data has changed forfeits, slowed the annual decline in wrestlers, etc.

Is this even being tracked now? How will we be able to measure this data? Is there a way within Trackwrestling that they can pull data from duals to see how many FFs there are without someone combing through every dual?

The reason I've always advocated for 12 is that the large majority has been able to fill those weights at regionals. It's the one time we can look at numbers across the state.

Again, if anyone has access to a person at Flowrestling who I can talk to, I am happy to continue putting the data together.

I respectfully disagree Ghetto.  Why would going to 12 weights grow numbers?  The issue we are debating right now is simply due the focus on dual competition.
I would argue that to grow numbers would be to ADD weight classes(something I would favor very much).
I could see starting at 98 or 100 and increasing by 5 pounds increments until you get close to the top.  We need to have a positive, growth mindset. 
I was coaching when we went from two divisions to three.  At the time I thought it was a bad idea.  I was wrong, it has been a positive for wrestling overall(more opportunity).
I grew up with 12 weight classes, coaching when we went to 13, then 14 and I was a little skeptical, particularly because the additional weight was "up top".  I think the place the weight was added was not the best but overall it was a positive for wrestling (more opportunity). 
Wrestling is better than it ever has been (despite what too many "old timers" remember....and I am cautious as I am an old timer not to "'miss-remember"things). 
As far as duals, I went over our schedule this year.  I can't see a single dual where the winner/loser would change for us were we at 12 weights, 13 weights or 14 weights.  Ostensibly that is why we are retracting, correct?
Lastly, I don't see retraction as scary.  I just see the lost opportunities and that is what this is.

[ChargerDad]

Forfeits are just a part of wrestling.  A team can have 20+ kids and still forfeit a weight.  My team had 26 this season and still have to forfeit 113 and sometimes 120 while I had good kids sitting JV at other weights. Just a fact of the sport. 

Looking at data and tournaments that we have been to the last two years 113 and 195 have been the two weights with the least amount of wrestlers.  106 has actually been almost full at every tournament and my 6 pounder has one forfeit this season. 

13 will be my vote at the end of the season.

With the mindset that forfeits are just part of it, what's your thought process behind 13 weights?  and will you vote for 13 weight classes without knowing what those 13 weight classes will be?

[Ghetto]

One of the things that is so scary for those who don't want to change the weights, I believe, is the ocean liner pace in which we change direction. When will we (coaches, WIAA, etc.) revisit to see if the data has changed forfeits, slowed the annual decline in wrestlers, etc.

Is this even being tracked now? How will we be able to measure this data? Is there a way within Trackwrestling that they can pull data from duals to see how many FFs there are without someone combing through every dual?

The reason I've always advocated for 12 is that the large majority has been able to fill those weights at regionals. It's the one time we can look at numbers across the state.

Again, if anyone has access to a person at Flowrestling who I can talk to, I am happy to continue putting the data together.

I respectfully disagree Ghetto.  Why would going to 12 weights grow numbers?  The issue we are debating right now is simply due the focus on dual competition.
I would argue that to grow numbers would be to ADD weight classes(something I would favor very much).
I could see starting at 98 or 100 and increasing by 5 pounds increments until you get close to the top.  We need to have a positive, growth mindset. 
I was coaching when we went from two divisions to three.  At the time I thought it was a bad idea.  I was wrong, it has been a positive for wrestling overall(more opportunity).
I grew up with 12 weight classes, coaching when we went to 13, then 14 and I was a little skeptical, particularly because the additional weight was "up top".  I think the place the weight was added was not the best but overall it was a positive for wrestling (more opportunity). 
Wrestling is better than it ever has been (despite what too many "old timers" remember....and I am cautious as I am an old timer not to "'miss-remember"things). 
As far as duals, I went over our schedule this year.  I can't see a single dual where the winner/loser would change for us were we at 12 weights, 13 weights or 14 weights.  Ostensibly that is why we are retracting, correct?
Lastly, I don't see retraction as scary.  I just see the lost opportunities and that is what this is.

I am also old enough to have gone from 12 as a wrestler until today.

It's all hypothetical, right?

It is possible that going back to 12 would create more competitive duals for the middle of the road teams that are decent but can't get to 14, which may increase numbers by having exciting duals in front of the home fans. It may also help retain kids because less kids are forced into a varsity lineup when they aren't ready at all.

Numbers have fallen over time. That's not debateable. Is it due to increasing weights? Highly doubtful. NOT responding in any way isn't going to help. We have no idea if it will. My point is this: If we go to 12/13 and then keep it that way for 25 years when it's clearly having a negative effect, that is scary to me and I would assume others.

I get it. I could probably look at our duals and it may not have changed a thing. But wrestling is nationwide. We have to look at the bigger picture to see if it helps build the sport nationally.

[MNbadger]

And if nation wide we added weights we would have more national champs, state champs, etc.  More opportunities, more engagement.  The fact is that I am at the end of my wrestling life.  what ever happens. I'll deal with it and others will deal with it.  Wrestlers are pragmatic.
I don't see the panic of greatly shrinking numbers that you apparently see.
One thing I do know from a lifetime of being a "wrestler".  This sport will NEVER have numbers like others.  It is a tough sport, a stern mistress if you will.  For high school males, wrestling has always been 5th or 6th in participation nationally (6th in 2021, the most recent numbers).  So this has been through 12. 13, and 14 weight classes.  I would opt to then have more particpant weight classes as overall participation numbers have been the same throughout all the weight class changes.

[DocWrestling]

We see things differently.  You are on the give everyone a trophy path.  I think philosophically kids want to know they earned it and want to work towards it.  If they don't then they are never going to survive in wrestling at all.

All the reasons I loved and took pride in wrestling are disappearing.  Hard work being the toughest practices of any sport.  One on one battles.  Pride of earning your spot as winning the wrestle-off the first time was better than almost all the rest of the victories.  Then working hard to maintain the spot and achieve higher goals.

Seems to me at the same time as all those disappear to supposedly try to increase numbers the numbers are going down.

Coincidence?