Further discussion on whether their should be a uniform option vs. Singlet

[hammen]

Well interesting that whatever and Doc neither knew that jr high can wear an alternative uniform but still persist on thinking it is the reason kids will not wrestle. Maybe some but that is not the fundamental reasons just maybe one reason for those who are looking for an excuse.

Wrestling is tough demanding sport. It takes allot of hard work and commitment and is physically demanding many kids are just to soft to do it. Many parents worry about little johnny getting hurt and having to work so hard. So get off your high horse this topic has been posted and polls that all favored the singlet put up many times. The majority of the people here agree with the singlet but many could care less of it was an option.

The first time one kid gets his fingers caught up into the loose material of the board shorts and comes off with a dislocated finger it will be you Doc screaming bloody murder about how unsafe those uniforms are. Or how this kid lost this match because the kid "grabbed the shorts" to turn him.

Too bad I disagree whatever the singlet was developed for good reason. Practical reasons and whatever too bad I have an opinion you have your opinion I have mine because mine does not agree with your I should not post? WRONG

Now I will go out on limb here I bet the Kaukauna coaches are doing more than just changing to board short to get good participation. Just a guess though.  That program has had some really good team success and success breeds success. But heck maybe it is just the board shorts.

See, Ramjet, this is your problem.

1 - You post the same stuff repeatedly without adding anything to new to an argument.

2 - You then completely miscontrue what anyone who disagrees with you ever said.

3 - You then get all snide and snippy and then become a jackwagon when people get tired of you.

NOWHERE did Doc or I EVER say changing the uniform would magically solve all problems.  We simply said it would help in a nuimber of ways and then you keep chiming in with illogical, nonsensical points and you do it nonstop.  Way to exaggerate the potential for injury with board shorts.

You also keep bringing up the argument about what successfull programs do.  Let me try to make this real simple for you:

Nobody is suggesting that a uniform change will help struggling programs solve all their problems.  We are saying a change could help ALL programs.

Do you get that now?  ALL PROGRAMS could be helped by a change in uniforms.  Therefore, I don't care what Luxemburg or Ellsworth is doing differently from BarneyFifedom High School or West Bangkok.

If Kaukauna saw 5 additional kids come out because of the uniform change, multiply that by every school district and then figure a possible bump at the high school level and we are talking about possibly adding thousands of kids to wrestling.  Now, of course, you will disagreee with this and either make your snippy comments about "....go take it to the WIAA then..." or you will give a myriad of reasons why kids don't come out for wrestling.

Now let's make this clear, too.  We don't expect every kid to come out for wrestling because of a uniform change.  And we know that some kids will have excuses regardless of any change.  That is not what is being discussed.  We are simply talking about changing a widely-held negative perception that stems from the singlet - that's it.

As for you  to not being able to post because I don't agree with you.  YOU are WRONG again.

Post as often as you want.  Just stop saying the same crap on the same threads and you using  your same, tired, old tactics.

It get's old.  Real old.  But if you insist on showing people your ugly side, by all means - post away.

Thanks in advance.

I don't follow the logic of going from 5 new kids coming out in a large school district (with a very reputable program), to applying that to every school district in the state. The number of new kids coming from Kaukauna cannot be applied at a fixed amount. This is also assuming each program can afford to purchase the alternate uniforms, and, if they can afford them, choose to do so. It would be cool if 5 new kids came out at each school, and that each school could afford to purchase alternate uniforms - the impact would be noticeable. However, this is not a perfect world, and I am not sure how each school district and its student body would respond to the uniform change.  We won't know until it's done, but I imagine an insignificant change in participation (obviously my opinion).

[whatever]

Drew,

If Kaukauna can get 5 kids JUST because of new uniforms, doesn't it stand to reason that some schools MIGHT get more?  I mean, if kids already KNOW how successful Kaukauna is but the wrestling puts them over the edge and makes then want to come out, isn't is possible the programs with less success or accolades than Kaukauna MIGHT get more?

Let's put it his way, Drew - I'm almost certain providing a new OPTION for uniforms would not cause a DECREASE, correct?

So it stands to reason that the impact of such a change would be positive, regardless of what the actual numbers turn out to be.

[bigoil]

Doc was the person that pointed out Kaukauna used the new uniforms. Kluever came  on to confirm it.

[hammen]

Yes it's possible. Anything is possible. It's nice that you're looking at it in an optimistic way. But as a percentage of the student body, many will get less. I trust you can understand that. And a more reasonable approach to project the impact would be the amount of new wrestlers due strictly to the uniform option, as a percentage of the male student body.

And yes - I think it would increase participants, but I don't believe that difference will be noticeable. As I stated in the earlier thread, I see more value in other areas of recruiting kids and promoting the sport, rather than a passive approach.

[whatever]

But if a new uniform is another way to recruit kids and it can help promote the sport, why do you say that it's passive?

[DocWrestling]

I cannot say that certainly a uniform change is going to increase numbers and have never said that.  We all know there are many issues in play and yes some kids are just soft.

We do have proof that it helped Kaukauna's numbers and I have proof that the middle school kids in our program now want the alternative uniform after wrestling against Kaukauna.

That is powerful in itself for building some excitement with change.  If I had not seen the reactions I would not keep bringing it up.  This thread started simply because of some reactions on the internet to pictures from the NCAA tournament that many felt were quite revealing and took the focus off the stud wrestler in the picture.

I do think it will help with perception from parents to wrestlers and have noted many personal experiences with parents, social media, etc with comments on sexuality of uniform and just flat out showing too much between the legs.  These perceptions keep more kids out of wrestling than anything I believe.  Many kids do not even get the choice to find out how hard wrestling is because there parents won't let them do it.  How many former wrestlers have you known that married and there wives were uncomfortable with wrestling.  Happens all the time.  Well think of all those that have dads that never wrestled.  MMA can help change that stereotype especially if more kids look like the MMA guys with shirts on.

Ramjet has not offered one instance where the singlet drew in wrestlers because they liked the uniform, has not offered one instance of a wrestler that dislocated his finger because it got caught in a shirt, has not offered one instance where a T-shirt altered a match because the ref could not see the shoulder blades.  He has simply offered as a debate that it is tradition and kept harping on that the WIAA would not approve it.  The WIAA has approved it as has USA wrestling but the NFHS has not.  I believe it will be coming.

[whatever]

As a side note, looked at what happened when Michael Jordan decided he no longer wanted the tight shorts that NBA basketball players were known for.....the baggy shorts took off.

Another example of a small change that contributed to the overwhelming popularity of a sport........

[DocWrestling]

Has the singlet evolved over time?  Yep!  Fabrics are different now and not always for the better.  Singlets in the past were lower cut across the chest and now they are higher.  Why?  Did the nipples need to be covered?

My own thoughts with comparing to MMA uniform is why would we need a shirt in wrestling?  Why does the singlet go over the shoulders?  Is that simply a design from keeping the bottom from falling off?  Could there be one shoulder strap like some of the all star wrestling uniforms?

For the record I am not for bare chested wrestling but what are we supposedly covering there with the singlet?

[hammen]

But if a new uniform is another way to recruit kids and it can help promote the sport, why do you say that it's passive?

It's more passive because it's just having buying something and hoping it will increase numbers. If you're going to market it - then that is active. How goofy does it sound though - "Hey, we got new uniforms now, come join wrestling!". Then the questions come - "why do some guys wear these uniforms and others (mostly elite kids, since they wrestle with the singlet in freestyle/greco/collegiate) don't?". "Well I want to be a considered elite, I'm going to wear the singlet too." Then we have kids on the team who wear a singlet and others the alternate uniform. This is an indirect way of determining which kids are insecure/uncomfortable about wearing a singlet versus those who aren't (obviously there might be other reasons for a uniform choice, but since we are recruiting kids who will come out based on a uniform change, it's clear there is a sense of insecurity or uncomfortable-ness with the singlet). I imagine some kids will make fun of them for that (it's high school, they find every way to make fun of each other). This is where the uniform option could back-fire, and then just prove to be a waste of $. It could also have a positive impact, and more kids come out and everyone loves/wears the new uniforms. It seems overly optimistic. There are more productive ways to achieve increased participation, where we (as a wrestling community) encourage, welcome and embrace prospects.

I think more active recruiting would include discussion/convincing on how beneficial it is for football, track & field (more so field), and building discipline, work ethic, teamwork and good character.

[DocWrestling]

I honestly think but could be wrong that once more teams switch to the 2-piece more kids are going to want that and you will see the singlet phased out over time for all wrestlers.

If you let kids choose the option, I think more will choose the 2-piece.

I also think one of the negatives of having an option will be that kids will make more fun of the kids wearing the singlet which will also drive those to the 2-piece.

[hammen]

I honestly think but could be wrong that once more teams switch to the 2-piece more kids are going to want that and you will see the singlet phased out over time for all wrestlers.

If you let kids choose the option, I think more will choose the 2-piece.

I also think one of the negatives of having an option will be that kids will make more fun of the kids wearing the singlet which will also drive those to the 2-piece.

The singlet will not be phased out.

I think more will choose the singlet based on the example I just gave. Good and elite wrestlers will choose the singlet more often than the 2-piece (again, freestyle/greco/college requires it and those rules will not be changing anytime in the next decade or so).

The ones being made fun of can also be the one wearing the 2-piece. Those who choose the singlet are most likely too confident to care what Jonny IOnlyPlayFootballBecauseImCool says. They are most likely good/elite wrestlers who are successful in their craft, and would laugh at what Jonny says and probably make fun of him for not being tough enough to wrestle and instead doing curls in the weightroom with their cut-offs. (Sorry if that was a little aggressive).

[DocWrestling]

Hammen,

Elite wrestlers are 2% of the population and when tallking about wrestling issues I never really consider them because they are the true wrestlers and diehards.  The rest are just doing it for fun and a sport.  I was talking about youth wrestling, middle school wrestling, and yes I believe it will mostly phase out of high school wrestling.  I don't think it will ever leave college or international wrestling and there will always be the old school wrestlers in high school.

But if each youth team and middle school team moves more to 2-piece uniforms based on popularity with the kids like when our kids saw the Kaukauna uniforms, I don't think many would switch back to the singlet in high school unless they have to.

[hammen]

Do you think freestyle and greco youth wrestling would switch?

[DocWrestling]

Do you think freestyle and greco youth wrestling would switch?

They already have the option.  The WWF came out with a 2-peice option last year that all the kids I asked about it loved it but it was about $100 I think for shorts and shirt so I don't believe they sold much.  Like you have mentioned in the past, cost will be an issue.

Right now I also think nobody wants to be "different", as more teams switch it will gradually become more affordable and more popular.

Pretty sure USA wrestling allows the 2-piece option in all competitions.  It is just going to take some clothing manufacturers to market it and make it affordable.

I think teams will start buying the shorts and kids can buy the shirts printed how they want each year for $25

[Tonto]

Doc,
Actually back in the day when JT was wrestling as a youth at Gtown there was an instance at a practice were a boys arm got caught in a shirt during a switch and broke his arm.  After that, the rule in the wrestling room was all shirts tucked in.