Northwestern 18 -- Wisconsin, 14

[wrastle63]

I've defended Davis (or at least been realistic) about his coaching status in the past but you can't defend what happened Friday and if you're Davis critic you've got a buffet to choose from: getting the team penalized a point, having the team penalized another point, (11 to -2 ) losing the whole dual meet (in the decisive match) on a stalling call, seeing wrestlers who are starters and have been successful in the past regress and who are not wrestling well, even in defeat, not getting needed bonus points, etc. 

It was just wall-to-wall ugly, there's just no other way to describe it.

Yea exactly what you don't want: winning by keeping matches close, not being aggressive, losing on stall points, team points deducted, and giving up WAY too many bonus points. That is the opposite of what you want your team to be or do. Hopefully we can get to the point where we are aggressive and looking for bonus.

[wrastle63]

The idea of just "being more aggressive" is tricky.

We've obviously seen an empire rise from nothing in Happy Valley, built on a mountain of bonus points. Still, it isn't like "being aggressive" is some massive trade secret. Every coach is aware that they give you extra team points for dominant wins, yet so few can manage to accumulate them with regularity. It's almost as if wildly attacking is only successful if you have a massive skill advantage over your opponent. Also, it isn't like Iowa is winning as much as they have based on aggression. The opposite, in fact. They grind, grind, grind, and ultimately win with counterattacks. Anyone who remembers the frustration of having Tony Ramos beat Tyler Graff repeated, despite Graff being the clear aggressor knows that.

What I'm saying is that Penn State is obviously the #1 example of a team gaining success with an open, attacking style, but are they good because of the style or can they just employ the style because they're good?

(For the record, I would love my guy to be the one taking shots, trying for turns, running up the score. Absolutely. I'm just asking if you can just "be more aggressive" or if you have to be the better wrestler for that style to work.)

Agreed I don't think it is easy, but I feel we could be more aggressive as to not lose a match on stall calls. Not asking for every match to be a TF, but just taking a few shots at least.

[Ivan Stankowski]

I'm bummed that Jimenez has, best-case, plateaued and worst-case, gotten worse, but let's call a spade a spade. This happens all the time in wrestling to seniors. Unless you're really new here, you watched Zeke Jordan peter out his senior year. You first noticed it when he stopped pulling bonus points wrestling unranked wrestlers, and ultimately, it ended with a fall out of the Top 3 at the NCAA tournament.

And, it's not a Wisconsin-only thing. Take a look over to Dean Heil, 2x NCAA Champion. He lost back-to-back this season, after ripping off something like 55 wins in a row. Then, in Oklahoma State's loss to Iowa, his team needed bonus points and instead he managed only a 4-0 win versus an unranked, unheralded Vince Turk. It's not going to end well for Heil, just as it hasn't for Johnny.

There are sooooo many examples of this too. It just happens with guys who have been literally wrestling their whole lives, with the rest of their life knocking on the door, to start looking ahead.

As this pertains to Barry Davis, I'm not sure. If you're looking to bash him, you can say Jimenez hasn't got better and be standing firmly on facts. Still, is there a program where this doesn't happen? I guess you can use Penn State, though it's never good to use the exception to prove the rule, but they just recruit over seniors who don't improve. Jimmy Gulibon & Matt McCutcheon stand out as NCAA qualifiers who just had someone younger just take their spot, in their senior year.

I would agree with you on the Senior thing but Heil is a bad example, he lost to Meridith and Jack who are both Seniors I believe and both wrestlers that Heil has barely beat in the past, as far as his 4-0 win against Iowa, that is typical Heil, scores just enough to win, not a bonus or pin guy, never has been

[bigG]

Heil is no bonus point wrestler. He's a 3-2/2-1 kinda guy. It'll be interesting to see what happens here on out with Heil.

[Jimmy]

Heil is the most aggressive counter wrestler I have seen. You shoot he scores

[Ivan Stankowski]

Same style as jason tsirtsis

[bigG]

Heil is no bonus point wrestler. He's a 3-2/2-1 kinda guy. It'll be interesting to see what happens here on out with Heil.

I feel pretty confident it ends with someone else finishing in a more elevated spot on the podium. As confident as you can feel with a two-time returning NCAA champ anyway.

Heil is an example of a guy who has had massive success despite not being aggressive.

He does produce wins very well. Not at all what I'd call aggressive. I could go for the "aggressive counter" wrestler if he laid a beating on a decent wrestler. 3-2/4-3. Hey, he may not be at all aggressive, but he wins. This year will be a test.

There are oodles of the "wait for the mistake" guys out there who wait all day for their opponent to shoot so they can aggressively (and safely) defend for points.

[Ivan Stankowski]

Ohhh and I forgot the Heil loss to Merideth was strictly due to elevation!! I read that on the internet and my kids always tell me if its on the internet it has to be true!!!! 

[wrastle63]

Heil is no bonus point wrestler. He's a 3-2/2-1 kinda guy. It'll be interesting to see what happens here on out with Heil.

I feel pretty confident it ends with someone else finishing in a more elevated spot on the podium. As confident as you can feel with a two-time returning NCAA champ anyway.

Heil is an example of a guy who has had massive success despite not being aggressive.

He does produce wins very well. Not at all what I'd call aggressive. I could go for the "aggressive counter" wrestler if he laid a beating on a decent wrestler. 3-2/4-3. Hey, he may not be at all aggressive, but he wins. This year will be a test.

There are oodles of the "wait for the mistake" guys out there who wait all day for their opponent to shoot so they can aggressively (and safely) defend for points.

I don't think I could consider him an agressive counter wrestler haha. Guys like him and Tsirtsis are just flat out boring to watch. Could you imagine a matchup between those two??? Would be the ultimate 1-0 sudden victory match!

[dad 2 5]

I'm bummed that Jimenez has, best-case, plateaued and worst-case, gotten worse, but let's call a spade a spade. This happens all the time in wrestling to seniors. Unless you're really new here, you watched Zeke Jordan peter out his senior year. You first noticed it when he stopped pulling bonus points wrestling unranked wrestlers, and ultimately, it ended with a fall out of the Top 3 at the NCAA tournament.

And, it's not a Wisconsin-only thing. Take a look over to Dean Heil, 2x NCAA Champion. He lost back-to-back this season, after ripping off something like 55 wins in a row. Then, in Oklahoma State's loss to Iowa, his team needed bonus points and instead he managed only a 4-0 win versus an unranked, unheralded Vince Turk. It's not going to end well for Heil, just as it hasn't for Johnny.

There are sooooo many examples of this too. It just happens with guys who have been literally wrestling their whole lives, with the rest of their life knocking on the door, to start looking ahead.

As this pertains to Barry Davis, I'm not sure. If you're looking to bash him, you can say Jimenez hasn't got better and be standing firmly on facts. Still, is there a program where this doesn't happen? I guess you can use Penn State, though it's never good to use the exception to prove the rule, but they just recruit over seniors who don't improve. Jimmy Gulibon & Matt McCutcheon stand out as NCAA qualifiers who just had someone younger just take their spot, in their senior year.

I find it a little interesting that you name Zeke Jordan and his senior finish. He is one of the all-time greats for the UW and the injury he fought through his senior must have been missed by some. I do again JJ is not producing the way I thought he would and this year is not at all what I hoped for. Too completely different guy and circumstance.

[jeast]

JapWhiz, you certainly capture the essence of the problem.  I guess for me, it isn't about being aggressive, it's more about wrestling to win, vs. wrestling not to lose. That's really hard to quantify, but ultimately it is something you and I and everyone else sees consistently from the Badger wrestling program.
Back in the late 70's early 80's UW wrestled differently. I can't label it any other way than to say that the team as a whole wrestled to win rather than not to lose.
I remember the Illinois vs Wisconsin dual in 1980, when King Mueller and Andy Rein wrestled.  That head throw against one of the tougher kids in the Big ten wasn't aggressive as much as it was wrestling to win. Does that make sense?  All in all, I am very frustrated that the UW doesn't look at moving on from BD. He has done a good job, nothing to be disappointed in really...other than not getting any better... for decades. 

[wrestle03]

Come on guys, as the Badger faithful always say - "Wait til next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Pitiful performance to say the least.

[Barou]

Come on guys, as the Badger faithful always say - "Wait til next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Pitiful performance to say the least.

It's the BD mission statement!

[bigG]

"He has done a good job, nothing to be disappointed in really...other than not getting any better... for decades."

I think it has been his tepid success that keeps him there. I really don't think the folks who hold the power at UW really care too much, so long as BD remains relatively low-maintenance. Ben A won't stick around forever. But, even if they move on without my favorite candidate, I wish they'd just move on. When you're not improving you have to change something.

Sadly, though, I think it's his mediocrity that makes the perfect amount (or lack of) noise if you're a non-wrestling UW admin.

[stbird]

Penn State is actually a perfect example, look at Cortez, also from Illinois and like Jiminez, a 4 timer who's career is now over because Penn State had to pull Nick Lee's redshirt because he wasn't performing. 
Both of those guys were thought to be great recruit's at the time.  Cortez probably the better recruit. 


As this pertains to Barry Davis, I'm not sure. If you're looking to bash him, you can say Jimenez hasn't got better and be standing firmly on facts. Still, is there a program where this doesn't happen? I guess you can use Penn State, though it's never good to use the exception to prove the rule, but they just recruit over seniors who don't improve. Jimmy Gulibon & Matt McCutcheon stand out as NCAA qualifiers who just had someone younger just take their spot, in their senior year.