On Guillotine, varsity numbers...

[littleguy301]

Handles, If you have 18 kids out for wrestling every year, it is not likely to be cut.  You are serving 18 kids , just like BB, VB, etc.(that is what ADs look at)  Winning or losing duals has nothing to do with it.  
My point with Olympic wrestling/weights was not to compare the way you indicated but to show cutting weights is negative.

I beg to differ on that. with all the school cuts, 18 kids is basically a classroom in some schools and yes classes are being cut so why wouldnt they cut wrestling.

middle school wrestling teams at least in my area are being cut or really down sized so what do you think is next?

[littleguy301]

LG  (and others)...
"OK,,,,41 teams entered in the tournament. Not a single 1 had 14 guys on their respective rosters. Over all 389 wrestlers on 41 teams which comes out to 9.4 kids per team. So basically the average team at the northern badger this years was missing  over 25% of their potential line up."

I say this...... so what?  A great, competitive tournament, correct?  More weights is more opportunities, period.  Less chance for an individual to get stuck being a "tweener".
This issue only matters if you are stuck on duals.

Are you happy about the Olympic weights getting cut to 8?

If we give up our obssession with duals things are fine.  We used to compete in a Friday night, eight team, individual tournament... it was great.  The Northern Badger was great, and so to are the other tournies OTW, Mid State, Bi-state, etc.  For none of these is havinfg 9.4 kids per team a problem.

well I wouldnt compare the olympics to high school wrestling looking at cutting. Like some one said it is a very political situation with the olympics and I doubt the money and the politics are as great in high school.

[MNbadger]

LG, If you read myreply to handles, I addressed the Olympic issue.  As I stated I realize there are different causes but we still dislike fewer weight classes no matter the reason.

[littleguy301]

I was also repling and agree that it is a political situation.

[littleguy301]

While I love wrestling, going to tournaments. I totally understand the idea of not cutting weight classes and giving all the oppurtunities to all kids to compete, seriously I do.

the problem I see that in another decade we have alot less programs. I also see more and more super programs meaning alot of transfers and such and the programs they leave will weaken and the programs they go to will be stronge.

I am not at this point looking to transfer or open enroll. Maybe down the road it could be an option but I believe in supporting and commenting to your districts program no matter how good or how bad.

personally I do see wrestling becoming almost a club sport in due time.

[MNbadger]

These things are happening in all sports (the concentration of talent in fewer and fewer schools). I do not think this has anything to do with how many weights we have or if duals have fewer forfeits.  This is an outgrowth of open enrollment, a more mobile society, and the economy. 
When I was young there were many dairy farmers (most of my class mates and their families) with 40-60 head making a living and raising families.  As time went on several farms became one, then five farms became one, etc. 
Yes, I do agree that eventually most if not all sports will leave our schools and be club sports (the European model).
i do not see how duals with forfeits diminishes the lessons that wrestling teaches nor the value of being in wrestling. If it is valued it is going to survive.  If it is not valued it won't the same as education overall. 

[Ghetto]

I think..
I do not think..

I'm not picking on you MNBadger, but we are dealing in opinions. When you look at the numbers, less and less kids are wrestling. That's fact.

We are going to 9 man football where it's hard to fill teams. At the same time, we don't want to change our sport, which is far less popular.

[MNbadger]

Forget "thinking"

I just went through the NFHS numbers and picked some random years...........I did not take the time to "cherry pick" any numbers, just wanted to zip through it.
Generally wrestling has been #5-8 in popularity for boy's sports since 1969.
At worst numbers have stayed the same.  Really, they have increased overall (statistically not a significant number in recent history to be honest).  Additionally, though not big numbers these don't include girls at all.
year            # of schools              # of participants
'69-'70          6,870                          226,681
'91-'92          8,392                         229,908
'03-'04          9,526                          238,700
'04-'05          9,562                          243,009
'06-'07          9,445                          257,246
'09-'10          10,363                        272,890
'12-'13          10,488                        270,163
'13-'14          10,668                        269,514

I had years coaching where we were actually three deep at each weight and I was wishing we could run at least two varsity teams.  I also suffered a year where we forfeited four weights (tough to win a dual but I did not care, we emphasized tournaments).  Actually I prefer tournaments even when we were a strong dual team.  Wrestling at it's heart is an individual endeavor.
As far as cutting programs, if you consistently have 16 or more kids out (similar to BB, VB, etc.) and you are giving the kids a good experience, ADs will love you and your program.   Remember, in any sport, half the teams lose, this is not the primary reason for providing sports.  

[DocWrestling]

That growth is in non-traditional wrestling states nationally.  In some states that never really had wrestling the sports participation is growing because it started with basically zero.  In the Midwest where wrestling has always existed each state is losing numbers of wrestlers each year.  That was posted with the numbers earlier this year.

National numbers are not going to help the lost numbers in WI, MN, IL, IA, etc.

You can see by those national numbers though that the participation numbers are up and there are more teams but fewer wrestlers per team average.

2013/2014-----25.2 wrestlers per team
1969/1970-----33 wrestlers per team

[DocWrestling]

You can run two varsity teams for tournaments.  That is what many of the successful schools do with sending a varsity reserve to varsity tournaments.

[MNbadger]

Yes, but it counts as two dates for us.  At least it did when I was coaching.
Your point makes mine about participation.... It is up in some communities and down in others inside MN or WI or IA, etc.  This has always been the case and what I was pointing out about my personal experience coaching (and others on this thread).

And regardless, MORE kids are wrestling, not fewer. 

[aarons23]

You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed.  Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation  ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will).  So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.  

So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?

[MNbadger]

aarons, wE agree in regard to contraction but one has to be careful about claiming people are not "working hard enough" or "smart enough".  I coached in a large high school (presently 2100 + and we were actually bigger at one point).  As I stated, we had big numbers and small numbers at different times.  I can tell you when numbers were down, it was not from my/our lack of effort.  We have always done the right things and emulated successful programs.  Sometimes it just doesn't work.  Heck, for 4 years we had a youth coach who would be hired by any college or country instantly to coach.  We had horrible youth numbers.  We have several coaches now who are very good coaches, young, kid friendly, etc.  We can't get participation, period. 

You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed.  Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation  ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will).  So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.  

So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?

[aarons23]

aarons, wE agree in regard to contraction but one has to be careful about claiming people are not "working hard enough" or "smart enough".  I coached in a large high school (presently 2100 + and we were actually bigger at one point).  As I stated, we had big numbers and small numbers at different times.  I can tell you when numbers were down, it was not from my/our lack of effort.  We have always done the right things and emulated successful programs.  Sometimes it just doesn't work.  Heck, for 4 years we had a youth coach who would be hired by any college or country instantly to coach.  We had horrible youth numbers.  We have several coaches now who are very good coaches, young, kid friendly, etc.  We can't get participation, period. 

You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed.  Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation  ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will).  So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.  

So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?

Actually...I havent accused anyone of anything.  I asked a question.  If they are so set on cutting weight classes, I would suspect they could discuss what they tried and why it didnt work.  Maybe even get pointers from other schools that are successful.

[MNbadger]

Aarons, If I sounded like I was accusing you I apologize.  I have been through this kind of thing on here before.