Has anyone seen this thread? http://forum.theguillotine.com/topic/11011786/1/
Something similar to what Ghetto has done with regional entries, but apparently plans to go through the season. I'd be curious to find out how WI numbers are and how they compare to MN (or other states).
Ghetto's numbers are always eye-opening, but perhaps too late in the season to create a solid discussion with representatives?
Amazing that even with JHI, MN is averaging about 10 wrestlers per team !?! Would we be worse?
Seems like a rational discussion. People trying to come up with answers. I offered my information up to the guy who started that thread, in hopes that more information can lead to something happening nationwide. I am certain that nothing will be done in Wisconsin (and it seems to be in Minnesota as well) until the national federation takes the lead and changes the weights.
So far in MN, with JHI, they fill an average of 10 wrestlers per weight this season.
I still believe we should split the difference at 12.
There is discussion to have a separate class of 10 man teams (on the Guillotine), like they do 9 man football. I do wonder how many teams would decide to go that route here in Wisconsin?
Get points,
In reading other threads over there, there is another thread exactly about co-ops and how creating them to fill teams is actually hurting the sport and that cutting programs is far more harmful to the sport and takes away more opportunities than cutting weights.
It sounds like there are some major concerns with co-ops. Certainly they work in some occasions and situations, but two wrestling programs combined into one absolutely reduces opportunities for wrestlers (as well as other logistical problems for families/transportation costs etc) more than cutting a couple of weights.
Team A and Team B had 28 varsity spots (14 weights) between them, they co-op, there is now 14 varsity spots.
Team A and Team B had 28 varsity spots (14 weights) between, We cut two weights, they now have 24 spots combined.
Which option reduces more opportunities for kids to wrestle? This isn't even equating the kids who can't make the 15 mile drive to the other school for practice.
Quote from: Handles II on December 13, 2016, 11:26:31 AM
Get points,
In reading other threads over there, there is another thread exactly about co-ops and how creating them to fill teams is actually hurting the sport and that cutting programs is far more harmful to the sport and takes away more opportunities than cutting weights.
It sounds like there are some major concerns with co-ops. Certainly they work in some occasions and situations, but two wrestling programs combined into one absolutely reduces opportunities for wrestlers (as well as other logistical problems for families/transportation costs etc) more than cutting a couple of weights.
Team A and Team B had 28 varsity spots (14 weights) between them, they co-op, there is now 14 varsity spots.
Team A and Team B had 28 varsity spots (14 weights) between, We cut two weights, they now have 24 spots combined.
Which option reduces more opportunities for kids to wrestle? This isn't even equating the kids who can't make the 15 mile drive to the other school for practice.
Quit trying to trick us with facts, logic, and math.
Co-ops only can partially work for programs in big cities. They do not work in rural communities. 1) They increase travel just for practice, 2) each time a co-op is created a conference team is likely lost.
Programs tend to ebb and flow also with numbers. Teams that used to have great teams and great numbers don't now. Some teams that had low numbers now have huge numbers and success.
Keeping programs is #1 priority above worrying about keeping individual varsity opportunities.
The debate could be long and harsh between the haves and have-nots. I think for a healthy sport you need a structure that allows for full JV and full varsity teams. I think taking drastic steps and even going to 10 weight classes would be a great thing. 13 and 12 would not make a big difference especially where numbers are plus you need all those kids spread out.
A compromise may be needed and here is my proposal.
1) Get rid of 3 divisions and go to two divisions for team state. Individual state could stay at 3 divisions if you wanted. Get rid of overlap between team state and individual state at regionals.
2) Let schools choose what division they want to compete in for teams state- Divisions are not by school size but by chosen structure. Schools can decide to be in the 14-weight class division or the 10-weight class division. Two team state champions. Can create conferences by sections and would reduce travel and top 2-3 teams in each section advance to playoffs/post-season
3) Duals would be based on choice of school
4) All individual tournaments would still use 14 weight classes including regionals and state.
Seems like a win/win all the way around. I think they only negative is that I think you would see very few schools pick the 14-weight class system and that would then tell everyone a lot.
Get points,
I don't have an answer for "what weights?". I think nobody needs to jump to that right away, though unfortunately it's the first thing people want to know. Maybe following their thread and if someone would have the courage to start our own (?) to first find out what type of an issue we are really dealing with, and 2nd to try to come up with some viable solutions is more important than worrying about what weights.
It does seem that based off of Ghetto's numbers from past years, and some of these from another state, that we really need to draw the attention of those suggesting/making rules.
As for the guillotine suggestion of making fewer weights for small-sized schools, one thing they talked about is if there is a dual or tournament between divisions (A vs AA or AAA), that the host school's weights would be the ones that are followed. It's possible that it could work. In MN they don't have a 1/2 lb (or %) per day/week rule. So a kid who wants to wrestle at 120 at Saturday's tournament could still weigh-in at the 116 (hypothetical) weight class in the dual on Tuesday without negative repercussions. That wouldn't work here unless the "per day" rules were eliminated.
Quote from: DocWrestling on December 13, 2016, 11:49:11 AM
Co-ops only can partially work for programs in big cities. They do not work in rural communities. 1) They increase travel just for practice, 2) each time a co-op is created a conference team is likely lost.
Programs tend to ebb and flow also with numbers. Teams that used to have great teams and great numbers don't now. Some teams that had low numbers now have huge numbers and success.
Keeping programs is #1 priority above worrying about keeping individual varsity opportunities.
The debate could be long and harsh between the haves and have-nots. I think for a healthy sport you need a structure that allows for full JV and full varsity teams. I think taking drastic steps and even going to 10 weight classes would be a great thing. 13 and 12 would not make a big difference especially where numbers are plus you need all those kids spread out.
A compromise may be needed and here is my proposal.
1) Get rid of 3 divisions and go to two divisions for team state. Individual state could stay at 3 divisions if you wanted. Get rid of overlap between team state and individual state at regionals.
2) Let schools choose what division they want to compete in for teams state- Divisions are not by school size but by chosen structure. Schools can decide to be in the 14-weight class division or the 10-weight class division. Two team state champions. Can create conferences by sections and would reduce travel and top 2-3 teams in each section advance to playoffs/post-season
3) Duals would be based on choice of school
4) All individual tournaments would still use 14 weight classes including regionals and state.
Seems like a win/win all the way around. I think they only negative is that I think you would see very few schools pick the 14-weight class system and that would then tell everyone a lot.
Doc I'm not sure how your proposals (other than going to 10 weights) would help increase our numbers or fill 14 weights. You seem to be focusing on the win/lose aspect of the sport.
If anyone thinks we can get over 50% of our high school teams to fill 14 weight classes ever, I think you are fooling yourself. Sports are just different to kids now and the structure just does not match. I am not looking for wrestling to fill 14 weight classes for everyone because I think that is impossible. It takes a special coach at the right time and for a long time to make it work. I commend those that can do it beyond anything else accomplished in wrestling but it is very hard. Many schools have done it and can no longer and then others raise up.
I do think their are subtle improvements that would help most noticeably improving what we do at the middle school level and JV level with more dual and team activities.
My fear is that wrestling will move towards what hockey looks like. Green Bay has one team. Appleton has one team. Milwaukee has a few teams. Then you have a town like Fond du Lac that has two teams or in Madison area where each high school has a team.
Wrestling has also been a proud sport in many rural communities. At 10 weights I think we can save programs, improve the team concept, maybe prevent transfers, build excitement, and ultimately draw more into the sport.
Less weight classes means less opportunities and equals less kids in the program plain and simple. Not saying you wouldn't have better dual competitions but kids already look at where they might or might not fit in and if you have less weight classes in means less kids. We can say they just need to put in there time and get better and so on and there are some that will but as we all can agree wrestling is tough sport thus if kids can't see an opportunity to make the varsity in near future you just left some more behind by cutting weight classes. If we could still retain al the kids less weight classes would be great but my biggest fear is that isn't going to be the case you will see overall numbers in our sport go down drastically.
What defines a healthy sport?
Wrestling- teams with 20 kids?
Varsity team incomplete
JV team- no team aspect- same format as youth wrestling
Basketball
Varsity- 10-12 kids
JV- 10-12 kids
Freshman squads at D1 schools- 10-12 kids
Basically only the very best freshman and sophomores in the state get to play varsity
It seems that basketball has fewer kids on teams overall at many schools and has even fewer actually competing at varsity level (7-8 kids play at most) and yet many kids go out and work hard and wait for their "possible" chance at playing varsity when they are juniors and seniors. Is basketball a healthier sport because they make kids move up the ranks. Do they care that tons of kids are quitting because they are not good enough? We all know the numbers are much higher in youth basketball compared to youth wrestling in most communities and yet fewer kids actually play varsity basketball. When does the sport become more important than the individual. There are not nearly the co-ops or lost programs in basketball.
My pride in wrestling just hates the loss of the team concept and the fact that we now want to hand kids everything to keep them out. It is now much harder and takes more work to make varsity in just about every other sport. Maybe we need to go backwards and stop celebrating the kid that weighs the right amount and gets to wrestle varsity early and celebrate the hard work and dedication it takes to earn a varsity spot! Teams with 14 weight classes filled now would have even more competition in the room making them better and they could even send their varsity reserves to varsity tournaments like many do now. Essentially nothing is stopping any team from having two varsity squads! Stoughton has it going on right now and sent two squads to the Dells varsity duals. Congrats and good for them and those wrestlers
I think we need to get away from this idea that a team that doesn't fill 14 weight classes needs to recruit harder and it is somehow on the coaching staff for not recruiting. To get 14 varsity ready athletes spread out to the 14 different weight classes is nearly impossible even for our big schools. Some of our small schools only have a pool of 15-20 boys to choose from in their school to begin with.
I'm a die-hard wrestling fan and I have zero interest in going to 90% of the duals in my area. Watching forfeit after forfeit at duals is terrible for the sport.
I can't give you hard facts so blast away but I don't think going to 12 weight classes is going to have this huge down spiral effect on participation. Individually our weight classes are watered down. Ask anyone who's been going to the state tournament for 20+ years and they can tell you that. Dual competition wise it is almost unwatchable. Of course there are exceptions and we generally have some good duals at team state. However, I don't think it's doing our sport a lot of good when 90% of our in season duals are non-relevant or non-competitive. Maybe 90% is too high but it's gotta be close. Take a look at track wrestling dual results and it's peppered with "forfeit".
IMO - 106, 115, then college weights. I've mentioned that idea before and it doesn't seem too popular.
Just my $.02 from a wrestling fan if anyone cares. I'm not a coach and not tied to a program. I go to 1-2 dual meets a year and try to make it to the state wrestling tournament annually. Again, just a fan perspective as I think I'm part of a market that some fans would want to tap into.
If you take the bodyfat data from the past five years, and divide it into 12 equally represented weights (keeping 285 as the high limit), they would be:
114
124
131
138
144
151
158
167
178
194
221
285
I could do the numbers for 10 weights if needed.
We bodyfatted 939 less kids this year than in 2011-2012, and it's on a steady decline.
wow! I like those weights and they are backed up by data!
I might tweak the upper weights a bit and lower 221 to 215 or even 210 and drop 194 to 190. makes it a bit easier for kids that are wrestling up to fill those weight classes.
Quote from: DocWrestling on December 13, 2016, 03:29:59 PM
wow! I like those weights and they are backed up by data!
I might tweak the upper weights a bit and lower 221 to 215 or even 210 and drop 194 to 190. makes it a bit easier for kids that are wrestling up to fill those weight classes.
they are not backed up by any data....each year when Ghetto does his yearly cry to cut weight classes I go through track and count which weight classses has the most FF....it is rarely ever 106....so why would you want to take away the lightest weight class for the kids whom most only get to wrestle because of their size. We are doing something wron if when we have D1 schools with only 7 wrestlers!!! Lets look at that problem and find a way to fix.....the fix isn't going down to 7 weight classes...it figuring out why kids in those schools are not participating and finding way to get them to participate and retain them...lets start with the middle school programs....take a look at those same schools and their middle school programs generally mimic their high school programs.
Many sports are built at the youth level. One thing I see hurting our numbers is cost. It costs $100 for youth to sign up in our program. That's just to get started. There are many parents that can't afford that. There are also many parents that will not sign their child up because of the "what if they don't like it?" They just spent $100 so that their child could "try" our great sport and now they aren't interested. On top of the sign up costs you have shoes, singlets, entry fees, travel expenses, etc. I think we could do more to try to attract young kids and their families and then do our best to make sure these kids and families keep interested. This starts at the youth club level. Of course there are a multitude of reasons and this is just one thing I see.
Quote from: benrud3 on December 13, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
Many sports are built at the youth level. One thing I see hurting our numbers is cost. It costs $100 for youth to sign up in our program. That's just to get started. There are many parents that can't afford that. There are also many parents that will not sign their child up because of the "what if they don't like it?" They just spent $100 so that their child could "try" our great sport and now they aren't interested. On top of the sign up costs you have shoes, singlets, entry fees, travel expenses, etc. I think we could do more to try to attract young kids and their families and then do our best to make sure these kids and families keep interested. This starts at the youth club level. Of course there are a multitude of reasons and this is just one thing I see.
I don't think 100.00 is the norm for youth wrestling clubs. Ours is $45.00 for 4 months and you get a free $40.00 USA card.
I don't see the sense in the argument that reducing weight classes will reduce opportunities. That's why there is JV. Just because a kid is on JV doesn't mean they aren't getting an opportunity. Will good kids get squeezed out? Yup. Will a lot of kids on varsity have a better chance to develop on JV rather than get thrown in a varsity lineup? Yup. Will FF's be reduced? Yup. Will there be complaining? Yup. I'm in the camp that I never thought they should have gone to 14 in the first place.
This is an off the wall idea, what if the entire state was mandated to take their hydration test in a certain time period, ex the week of Nov 14-Nov18. Based off of all that data that is entered into a program, they announce what the seasons weight classes will be based off of the weights of all the kids in the state on like Nov. 22. Every season there would be different weights(or do it every 2 seasons), but at least the weights would match up with where we have the wrestlers.
Quote from: benrud3 on December 13, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
Many sports are built at the youth level. One thing I see hurting our numbers is cost. It costs $100 for youth to sign up in our program. That's just to get started. There are many parents that can't afford that. There are also many parents that will not sign their child up because of the "what if they don't like it?" They just spent $100 so that their child could "try" our great sport and now they aren't interested. On top of the sign up costs you have shoes, singlets, entry fees, travel expenses, etc. I think we could do more to try to attract young kids and their families and then do our best to make sure these kids and families keep interested. This starts at the youth club level. Of course there are a multitude of reasons and this is just one thing I see.
Move to Wrightstown, zero club costs and 4 tournaments paid for, my daughter pays $140 for 7 hoops tournaments. Wrightstown MS and HS - No cost to participate in any sport.
Quote from: bigoil on December 13, 2016, 10:06:03 PM
Quote from: benrud3 on December 13, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
Many sports are built at the youth level. One thing I see hurting our numbers is cost. It costs $100 for youth to sign up in our program. That's just to get started. There are many parents that can't afford that. There are also many parents that will not sign their child up because of the "what if they don't like it?" They just spent $100 so that their child could "try" our great sport and now they aren't interested. On top of the sign up costs you have shoes, singlets, entry fees, travel expenses, etc. I think we could do more to try to attract young kids and their families and then do our best to make sure these kids and families keep interested. This starts at the youth club level. Of course there are a multitude of reasons and this is just one thing I see.
Move to Wrightstown, zero club costs and 4 tournaments paid for, my daughter pays $140 for 7 hoops tournaments. Wrightstown MS and HS - No cost to participate in any sport.
Who pays for all of that? Is it the school district? Park and Rec?
Quote from: aarons23 on December 13, 2016, 03:48:31 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on December 13, 2016, 03:29:59 PM
wow! I like those weights and they are backed up by data!
I might tweak the upper weights a bit and lower 221 to 215 or even 210 and drop 194 to 190. makes it a bit easier for kids that are wrestling up to fill those weight classes.
they are not backed up by any data....each year when Ghetto does his yearly cry to cut weight classes I go through track and count which weight classses has the most FF....it is rarely ever 106....so why would you want to take away the lightest weight class for the kids whom most only get to wrestle because of their size. We are doing something wron if when we have D1 schools with only 7 wrestlers!!! Lets look at that problem and find a way to fix.....the fix isn't going down to 7 weight classes...it figuring out why kids in those schools are not participating and finding way to get them to participate and retain them...lets start with the middle school programs....take a look at those same schools and their middle school programs generally mimic their high school programs.
Oh Aaron, maybe you should ask questions before you assume.
They are absolutely backed by data. The WIAA gave me access to all the body fat tests for the past five years. I'd be happy to send you the spreadsheet. It has all the kids who have body fat tested and what they weighed on the date of the test.
Thanks for the confidence though.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 13, 2016, 10:22:11 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 13, 2016, 03:48:31 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on December 13, 2016, 03:29:59 PM
wow! I like those weights and they are backed up by data!
I might tweak the upper weights a bit and lower 221 to 215 or even 210 and drop 194 to 190. makes it a bit easier for kids that are wrestling up to fill those weight classes.
they are not backed up by any data....each year when Ghetto does his yearly cry to cut weight classes I go through track and count which weight classses has the most FF....it is rarely ever 106....so why would you want to take away the lightest weight class for the kids whom most only get to wrestle because of their size. We are doing something wron if when we have D1 schools with only 7 wrestlers!!! Lets look at that problem and find a way to fix.....the fix isn't going down to 7 weight classes...it figuring out why kids in those schools are not participating and finding way to get them to participate and retain them...lets start with the middle school programs....take a look at those same schools and their middle school programs generally mimic their high school programs.
Oh Aaron, maybe you should ask questions before you assume.
They are absolutely backed by data. The WIAA gave me access to all the body fat tests for the past five years. I'd be happy to send you the spreadsheet. It has all the kids who have body fat tested and what they weighed on the date of the test.
Thanks for the confidence though.
The data doesnt support any specific weight classes....no matter how you twist it....so by cutting weight classes your not increasing participation but trying to take opportunities from teams who have participation. So if I cant beat your team...lets reduce the number of participants you have to equal it out???
All I did was take the body fat tests for the last five years, put them in one long line, and divide them into 12 categories equally. That's what the weights are when divided equally by 12. I think you'd be surprised that dividing it by 14 doesn't really change the lowest weight much. I'll post it tomorrow from school, where I have the data.
I twisted nothing. I wrestled 98 to 119, so I am partial to little guys. The data does not support the weights we have. It's that simple.
It's never been about my team.
Quote from: crossface21 on December 13, 2016, 10:20:30 PM
Quote from: bigoil on December 13, 2016, 10:06:03 PM
Quote from: benrud3 on December 13, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
Many sports are built at the youth level. One thing I see hurting our numbers is cost. It costs $100 for youth to sign up in our program. That's just to get started. There are many parents that can't afford that. There are also many parents that will not sign their child up because of the "what if they don't like it?" They just spent $100 so that their child could "try" our great sport and now they aren't interested. On top of the sign up costs you have shoes, singlets, entry fees, travel expenses, etc. I think we could do more to try to attract young kids and their families and then do our best to make sure these kids and families keep interested. This starts at the youth club level. Of course there are a multitude of reasons and this is just one thing I see.
Youth Wrestling Free - wrestling club
School Sports Free - School
I thought we missed paying the first year of school sports. Heck I remember at Me. Falls in the 80's we paid $40 for one sport, I think there was a family cap, etc. but 30 years ago it was t free.
Move to Wrightstown, zero club costs and 4 tournaments paid for, my daughter pays $140 for 7 hoops tournaments. Wrightstown MS and HS - No cost to participate in any sport.
Who pays for all of that? Is it the school district? Park and Rec?
Youth Wrestling Free - wrestling club
School Sports Free - School
I thought we missed paying the first year of school sports. Heck I remember at Me. Falls in the 80's we paid $40 for one sport, I think there was a family cap, etc. but 30 years ago it wasn't free for me that's why I was very surprised.
With so many weight classes kids expect to be on varsity, even if they are first year.
Quote from: lizard king on December 14, 2016, 07:45:51 AM
With so many weight classes kids expect to be on varsity, even if they are first year.
Very interesting point, and yes, in too many cases they are on varsity but don't belong. Tightening of the weights might help keep these guys (and their expectations) on JV.
I had a conversation with a parent and wrestler from another team this weekend. They asked my opinion of wrestling JV for this 2nd year 10th grader, who has been wrestling varsity most of last year and this year to fill a weight, if it was a good or bad idea. I said "You are in 10th grade, you should be wrestling at least some JV so you can better gauge your abilities and work your techniques. Look at your 10th grade football players, baskeball players, they are JV all year, so yes, talk to your coaches about it."
For all you data nerds (and yes I am one of them):
Kids bodyfat tested for the past 5 years...
2011-2012 8946
2012-2013 8985
2013-2014 8797
2014-2015 8357
2015-2016 8007
Total 43092
Taking those 43092 kids, and dividing them equally between 12, 13, and 14 equal groups to build weight classes...
14 weights 13 weights 12 weights
113 113 114
122 123 124
128 130 131
134 136 138
140 142 144
145 148 151
151 154 158
157 161 167
164 170 178
173 181 194
184 197 221
200 224 285
226 285
285
After looking at that, where are all these kids who weigh 200 to 285. Do they bodyfat then quit?
I know I always stir up controversy with these thoughts of mine but I still think the data needs to be broken down further. We should not have the same weight classes for varsity as we do JV. The kids are different in sizes. In every sport the JV team is smaller than the varsity team!
Varsity weight classes should be built off of what juniors and seniors weigh.
JV weight classes should be built off of what freshman and sophomores weigh.
I like the idea of using data and even have the weight classes change each year.
Just call them weight class 1, weight class 2, etc up to how many classes you have.
Using the actual weights makes no sense anyway when we give growth lbs and allowance lbs.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 14, 2016, 09:59:04 AM
For all you data nerds (and yes I am one of them):
Kids bodyfat tested for the past 5 years...
2011-2012 8946
2012-2013 8985
2013-2014 8797
2014-2015 8357
2015-2016 8007
Total 43092
Taking those 43092 kids, and dividing them equally between 12, 13, and 14 equal groups to build weight classes...
14 weights 13 weights 12 weights
113 113 114
122 123 124
128 130 131
134 136 138
140 142 144
145 148 151
151 154 158
157 161 167
164 170 178
173 181 194
184 197 221
200 224 285
226 285
285
After looking at that, where are all these kids who weigh 200 to 285. Do they bodyfat then quit?
I like what you have here, but don't like the 113 as the lowest weight class. Being a (former) little guy we still need some sort of class for the small kids. I know it was a JV tourney last weekend, but there were 10 kids under 100 pounds. At least 105 or there about.
Your division of weight classes is just a math problem....has no bearing on what kids actually weigh....thus....it will do nothing but hurt programs that have worked to achieve the numbers.....its not just about math....if you want a real discussion about cutting weight classes you need to include the number of ff per existing weight class. Then Ill go back to....please tell me which 106# in the last 5 years didnt deserve their state title? Or even their state p l acement or qualifying?
"We should not have the same weight classes for varsity as we do JV. The kids are different in sizes. In every sport the JV team is smaller than the varsity team!"
In what sport is the jv smaller than the varsity?
Quote from: MNbadger on December 14, 2016, 10:51:00 AM
"We should not have the same weight classes for varsity as we do JV. The kids are different in sizes. In every sport the JV team is smaller than the varsity team!"
In what sport is the jv smaller than the varsity?
???? The JV football team is smaller than the varsity. The JV basketball team is smaller than the varsity. The JV baseball team is smaller than the varsity. Are you saying kids are not growing throughout high school? In most other sports the varsity is dominated by upper classmen so they are historically bigger than the JVs that are dominated by freshman and sophomores.
I think this is kind of funny.
It has been said on this forum over the years that Minnesota with JHI has just as tough of time of filling out line ups as Wisconsin does.
I cannt argue the data but man, it must be a regional thing. I look in the area I live and I see alot of kids not even making the 106 weight. Meaning I see kids weighing alot less than 106 wrestling at tournaments.
I also see alot of FF in the upper weights. I suppose that is why they do a state wide study and not just a regional study.
I like the weights but in my honest opinion I would do away with 2 classes above 200 and add another around the 100 mark.
Just my honest opinion.
Good topic!
Ghetto,
Are those the weights they weighed in at, or are those the weights they would weigh at the 7% minimum? Just trying to clarify. Thanks.
This thread probably shouldn't turn into a "what weights?!?" argument, but rather a discussion that first focuses on - Do we have too many weights and what are the solutions that will best help our sport be more viable in the eyes of those who make the decisions about cuts and co-ops.
Quote from: Handles II on December 14, 2016, 11:44:51 AM
Ghetto,
Are those the weights they weighed in at, or are those the weights they would weigh at the 7% minimum? Just trying to clarify. Thanks.
This thread probably shouldn't turn into a "what weights?!?" argument, but rather a discussion that first focuses on - Do we have too many weights and what are the solutions that will best help our sport be more viable in the eyes of those who make the decisions about cuts and co-ops.
LG, dropping a division won't help fill weight classes. That's a whole different subject. The issue is not filling the number of weights we now have, not filling divisions.
It is all about opportunities for the kids. Every one knows that we cannt leave a child behind and we cannt hurt feelings.
I know people say that it is the coaches job to recruit and get kids out. Sure maybe in schools with 2K students but when you start getting schools down in the 500 or under that possible pool of kids that will wrestler now becomes alot smaller.
7%, 1/2 pound a day, parents permission, maintain your weight, hydration, what to weight on so and so day. these are all hard things for new parents and wrestlers to understand. Yes they have to educated but wrestling in their thoughts of making things safe has made things very difficult to explain to new families. I spend alot of time talking with parents as to what their "johnny" can weight, what to eat, what to drink and so on. Sure some get it but some really dont.
With that said, I believe in 2 divisions. one with 14 and 1 with 12. Get rid of conference tournaments (that will ruffle feathers) and have true dual meets to determine and individual meets also.
Quote from: Handles II on December 14, 2016, 11:47:26 AM
Quote from: Handles II on December 14, 2016, 11:44:51 AM
Ghetto,
Are those the weights they weighed in at, or are those the weights they would weigh at the 7% minimum? Just trying to clarify. Thanks.
This thread probably shouldn't turn into a "what weights?!?" argument, but rather a discussion that first focuses on - Do we have too many weights and what are the solutions that will best help our sport be more viable in the eyes of those who make the decisions about cuts and co-ops.
LG, dropping a division won't help fill weight classes. That's a whole different subject. The issue is not filling the number of weights we now have, not filling divisions.
OK, I didnt explain.
Make 2 division with 24 man brackets. That would be 48 kids per weight instead of what we have.
8 sectionals
8 winners get first round byes
top 3 place winners from sectionals make it
there, how about that?
Quote from: padre on December 13, 2016, 06:11:41 PM
Quote from: benrud3 on December 13, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
Many sports are built at the youth level. One thing I see hurting our numbers is cost. It costs $100 for youth to sign up in our program. That's just to get started. There are many parents that can't afford that. There are also many parents that will not sign their child up because of the "what if they don't like it?" They just spent $100 so that their child could "try" our great sport and now they aren't interested. On top of the sign up costs you have shoes, singlets, entry fees, travel expenses, etc. I think we could do more to try to attract young kids and their families and then do our best to make sure these kids and families keep interested. This starts at the youth club level. Of course there are a multitude of reasons and this is just one thing I see.
I don't think 100.00 is the norm for youth wrestling clubs. Ours is $45.00 for 4 months and you get a free $40.00 USA card.
40$ here and 25$ for first timers and a top of 60$ for families.
free t-shirt
entry fee in our tournament
USA cards, we supply but they buy.
How much is related to kids and parents focusing on one sport from a young age? The specialized Clubs and traveling teams that are now in every sport often times go year round. When you participate in multiple sports it's near impossible to keep up competitively with those doing only one sport year round. Parents and kids see that and ultimately make a decision to go all in on one sport. The clubs and traveling teams certainly make kids better; but I believe it leads to a bigger divide and tends to force decisions for a sport at too young of an age.
Some of the best programs in the state are still combing the halls for an athlete or football player to fill in a spot and teach them how to wrestle on the fly, just to not give up that 6 points. In my experience and speaking to other teams there is often a lack of cooperation between sports. I always cringe when a football player won't join wrestling just because they want to lift for next season or because they don't want to shed some excess weight to make a weight class. The demands for one sport, especially in schools where a specific sport is king, is too great for the average athlete to overcome therefore forcing them to give all effort to getting better at one sport. Can other sports assist an athlete at becoming better at their chosen sport? Absolutely...but I don't think a lot of athletes or their parents believe that.
Seeing teams like Stoughton have two teams in the Dells is great. 28+ kids getting the varsity experience and all being able to spend time together afterwards (assuming they stayed at a water park). I think as your team improves or declines you need to adjust your schedule to include tourneys that match your ability. Things like lesser varsity tourneys for "varsity reserves" or a scramble format or any individual Tourney that allows a team to enter multiple kids; again making room for a young varsity caliber wrestler or kids that just cannot crack the lineup on a good team.
JV tourneys should never have weight classes IMO and the Dual format is also of helpful at this level. Nothing is more useless than us FF 120 and you FF 126. Keeping all JV tourneys away from these formats would improve the JV experience.
Anyway to sell the team experience of wrestling is going to help. The more kids feel included the more kids will want to join. Giving them opportunities that match their ability level is a big part in that.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 14, 2016, 10:46:31 AM
Your division of weight classes is just a math problem....has no bearing on what kids actually weigh....thus....it will do nothing but hurt programs that have worked to achieve the numbers.....its not just about math....if you want a real discussion about cutting weight classes you need to include the number of ff per existing weight class. Then Ill go back to....please tell me which 106# in the last 5 years didnt deserve their state title? Or even their state p l acement or qualifying?
Not sure what you mean.
It IS what kids weighed at their body fat test. Exactly. I did have to round up or down so a weight wouldn't be 113.4 or some odd number like that.
I'm not going to get into what weight should be cut. That makes no sense. That's an emotional argument. It makes more sense to have weight classes where kids actually are, rather than make up arbitrary numbers, at least in my opinion. I would never say (and haven't said) that any kid didn't deserve to wrestle or place at state.
I have looked at what weights have less kids at regionals. It's all over the board, depending on the year.
I was also given the 7% number that kids could go to, but we can't build weights on that. Most heavy guys, if they were at 7%, would be wrestling 182 and lower. There would be no 285.
Again I will say that it's just data. I'll keep throwing it out there.
I hate any talk about limiting the lighter brackets. How about the kid that won't come close to 106# until Sophmore or later. So he sits on JV or has to wrestle someone 5-15# even more heavier at 113# versus 106# because certain schools can not consistently fill a lineup? I suggest you go to youth state this year, tell those 80#, 85#, 90# birth year '02-'03 kids that they need to gain 20-35# this summer (on an 80# body frame) because a bunch of coaches can't recruit the cross country kid.
My son's HS barely had 20 kids out for years and years. This year 40 kids. Only difference-2nd year of a new coach, and many of the youth football coaches talking up wrestling.
Again, lets start punishing everyone because of someone else's problems.
I have a ?. Where do they come up with the weights. If they use skin fold weights then they are not accurate, kids have already cut. Do they use the whole student body on a random day or just wrestlers weights?
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 14, 2016, 01:27:42 PM
Ghetto,
What's your response that the drop in numbers matching enrollment numbers state wide?
I think there are a lot of factors in why less kids wrestle than back in the day.
Lower enrollment certainly plays a factor. You can see that just by looking at the D3 schools who are pulling from a very small pool of kids.
We also have more competition. WFB has wrestling, basketball, bowling, swimming, ski team and hockey in the winter for boys to do. When I was in school we had wrestling, swimming, or basketball.
Specialization also doesn't help.
After that are a million excuses that basically add up to "I'm not mentally and/or physically tough enough".
Quote from: Jimmy on December 14, 2016, 01:55:43 PM
I have a ?. Where do they come up with the weights. If they use skin fold weights then they are not accurate, kids have already cut. Do they use the whole student body on a random day or just wrestlers weights?
No clue.
Quote from: TeamJ on December 14, 2016, 01:48:33 PM
I hate any talk about limiting the lighter brackets. How about the kid that won't come close to 106# until Sophmore or later. So he sits on JV or has to wrestle someone 5-15# even more heavier at 113# versus 106# because certain schools can not consistently fill a lineup? I suggest you go to youth state this year, tell those 80#, 85#, 90# birth year '02-'03 kids that they need to gain 20-35# this summer (on an 80# body frame) because a bunch of coaches can't recruit the cross country kid.
My son's HS barely had 20 kids out for years and years. This year 40 kids. Only difference-2nd year of a new coach, and many of the youth football coaches talking up wrestling.
Again, lets start punishing everyone because of someone else's problems.
I hate it too. However, the numbers don't take sides. If more kids under 100 pounds came out, then the numbers would skew that way.
If we went to 12 weights, we wouldn't be punishing everyone. There are very few teams that cover 14 weights.
By eliminating the lightest weights, you are punishing someone--the 90#-110# kids. If going to 12 weights somehow increases HS wrestling participation and numbers (which I doubt), then spread the middle weights out and decrease them by 2.
Yes, I agree it probably is a problem in the small schools that have a smaller pool. But again, why punish/limit every school?
I am an intermittent lurker at the most on here and it appears this subject comes up often...yet I do not see the posts and topics on how we can reverse the trend of 939 less kids getting bodyfatted compared to a few years ago. I am not trying to be snarky and apologize if I missed them. I am just amazed there are 4 pages of conversation on shrinking, versus growing.
Quote from: TeamJ on December 14, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
I am an intermittent lurker at the most on here and it appears this subject comes up often...yet I do not see the posts and topics on how we can reverse the trend of 939 less kids getting bodyfatted compared to a few years ago. I am not trying to be snarky and apologize if I missed them. I am just amazed there are 4 pages of conversation on shrinking, versus growing.
Best post on this subject yet!!!
Not at the high schools I am around (Twin Cities/Metro area). The JV is not as GOOD as the varsity but size-wise they are virtually identical. As I think about it more, the point is moot as wrestling is the only one that has weight divisions.
Quote from: DocWrestling on December 14, 2016, 11:39:34 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on December 14, 2016, 10:51:00 AM
"We should not have the same weight classes for varsity as we do JV. The kids are different in sizes. In every sport the JV team is smaller than the varsity team!"
In what sport is the jv smaller than the varsity?
???? The JV football team is smaller than the varsity. The JV basketball team is smaller than the varsity. The JV baseball team is smaller than the varsity. Are you saying kids are not growing throughout high school? In most other sports the varsity is dominated by upper classmen so they are historically bigger than the JVs that are dominated by freshman and sophomores.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 14, 2016, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: TeamJ on December 14, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
I am an intermittent lurker at the most on here and it appears this subject comes up often...yet I do not see the posts and topics on how we can reverse the trend of 939 less kids getting bodyfatted compared to a few years ago. I am not trying to be snarky and apologize if I missed them. I am just amazed there are 4 pages of conversation on shrinking, versus growing.
Best post on this subject yet!!!
Start with a kids club coach that has a decent high school background who will stick around after his kid is out of high school. He needs to be able to balance fun and technique.
Have your varsity wrestlers work the kids club and be ambassadors.
Have a separate night for kids who want to get more serious in the club.
Hire a coach that also works in the building. Or at least in the district.
Recruit kids early. Don't wait until middle school or later.
Have the middle school coach on your high school staff to bridge the gap so they don't quit before HS.
Get the football coach on board.
Show up in the weight room.
Promote like crazy any way you can.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 14, 2016, 02:33:50 PM
TeamJ,
I get what you mean, but in what other sport does a 100-115 pound freshman or sophomore get on Varsity? Even as a swimmer a freshman that makes Varsity is going to have to have the muscle mass to keep up to the older boys so they would most likely still weigh over a 130 at least, I guess maybe golf?
As I stated before I don't want to see any weights cut unless we are talking about a small school division for schools 400 or less total student body.
I personally don't think any school other then a small rural school has a legit reason they cant fill a roster, not saying its easy. All sports are finding it more of a challenge filling rosters including football.
I'm probably in the minority here but I like that wrestling provides the opportunity for a 100 lb freshman to compete on varsity.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 14, 2016, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: TeamJ on December 14, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
I am an intermittent lurker at the most on here and it appears this subject comes up often...yet I do not see the posts and topics on how we can reverse the trend of 939 less kids getting bodyfatted compared to a few years ago. I am not trying to be snarky and apologize if I missed them. I am just amazed there are 4 pages of conversation on shrinking, versus growing.
Best post on this subject yet!!!
I disagree. The subject matter of growing the sport comes up continuously on this forum. From how youth practice or tournaments should be run, to coaching and practice ideas, recruiting efforts and ideas, fundraising....it's been pretty continuous for well over a dozen years. This thread ISN'T about shrinking. As Ghetto's regional numbers have been showing since 2005, its about too many weight classes for teams to fill. That isn't a shrinking problem, it's a consistent problem that some of us are finally starting to pay attention to after having 14 weights for about 15 years...
Wisconsin tournament numbers are on a new post. Let's see what the data shows.
Quote from: Handles II on December 15, 2016, 07:38:17 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 14, 2016, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: TeamJ on December 14, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
I am an intermittent lurker at the most on here and it appears this subject comes up often...yet I do not see the posts and topics on how we can reverse the trend of 939 less kids getting bodyfatted compared to a few years ago. I am not trying to be snarky and apologize if I missed them. I am just amazed there are 4 pages of conversation on shrinking, versus growing.
Best post on this subject yet!!!
I disagree. The subject matter of growing the sport comes up continuously on this forum. From how youth practice or tournaments should be run, to coaching and practice ideas, recruiting efforts and ideas, fundraising....it's been pretty continuous for well over a dozen years. This thread ISN'T about shrinking. As Ghetto's regional numbers have been showing since 2005, its about too many weight classes for teams to fill. That isn't a shrinking problem, it's a consistent problem that some of us are finally starting to pay attention to after having 14 weights for about 15 years...
Wisconsin tournament numbers are on a new post. Let's see what the data shows.
Really?? Where are all these post about growing the sport? To many want the easy way out and would rather make a simple cut than to commit to the hard task, but rewarding task of building programs. Once you start cutting....its the beginning of the end. Plus there is no logical place to cut weight classes that would actually help the sport grow.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 15, 2016, 09:48:06 AM
Quote from: Handles II on December 15, 2016, 07:38:17 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 14, 2016, 04:20:48 PM
Quote from: TeamJ on December 14, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
I am an intermittent lurker at the most on here and it appears this subject comes up often...yet I do not see the posts and topics on how we can reverse the trend of 939 less kids getting bodyfatted compared to a few years ago. I am not trying to be snarky and apologize if I missed them. I am just amazed there are 4 pages of conversation on shrinking, versus growing.
Best post on this subject yet!!!
I disagree. The subject matter of growing the sport comes up continuously on this forum. From how youth practice or tournaments should be run, to coaching and practice ideas, recruiting efforts and ideas, fundraising....it's been pretty continuous for well over a dozen years. This thread ISN'T about shrinking. As Ghetto's regional numbers have been showing since 2005, its about too many weight classes for teams to fill. That isn't a shrinking problem, it's a consistent problem that some of us are finally starting to pay attention to after having 14 weights for about 15 years...
Wisconsin tournament numbers are on a new post. Let's see what the data shows.
Really?? Where are all these post about growing the sport? To many want the easy way out and would rather make a simple cut than to commit to the hard task, but rewarding task of building programs. Once you start cutting....its the beginning of the end. Plus there is no logical place to cut weight classes that would actually help the sport grow.
I think the point is sometimes "less is more" and by cutting down the weight classes to 10-13 (however many you want to cut) is actually going to help grow the sport. Just because we offer the opportunity doesn't mean people will want to take it. I'm with you aarons on the not cutting the 106 weight class as wrestling is the sport that embraces the little guy being able to be on varsity. Still with obstacles sports face today wrestling weight class numbers might have outstretched their feasability. By cutting weight classes it's not saying we give up and take the easy way out. Can still walk the halls and recruit, fight specialization, find other ways to advertise the sport, etc. Hopefully someday then could increase it back to 14 weights possibly. Right now it's just a suggestion and topic of conversation not set in stone, it's good to look at data and discuss possible ways to help the sport.
C'mon Aarons, you can't possibly say that you haven't seen or read posts and threads about how to improve our sport. :o ::)
Personally I don't believe reducing weights will "grow" our sport unless it happens in one of two ways. 1. By being able to fill a higher % of the weight classes, our tournaments and duals become more competitive and have fewer forfeits we are able to show Admin that we have "full and/or competitive" varsity teams to keep our sport off the chopping block. Or 2. That some currently co-oped teams may be able to separate and once again be able to offer the sport at their school. I have the most hopes for 1, but 2 might be a distinct possibility is some situations.
If sales were to dip in your business, would you keep all the employees if it could possibly bring down your business? Many businesses fail by failing to see the data right there in front of them.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 15, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
If sales were to dip in your business, would you keep all the employees if it could possibly bring down your business? Many businesses fail by failing to see the data right there in front of them.
First off many businesses fail because they are to quick to cut...not look at ways to improve and grow.
Secondly high school wrestling is not a business.....its an extension of the classrooms...its about creating opportunities for kids to learn to be successful individuals....its not about throwing the towel in and cutting the weight classes.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 15, 2016, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on December 15, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
If sales were to dip in your business, would you keep all the employees if it could possibly bring down your business? Many businesses fail by failing to see the data right there in front of them.
First off many businesses fail because they are to quick to cut...not look at ways to improve and grow.
Secondly high school wrestling is not a business.....its an extension of the classrooms...its about creating opportunities for kids to learn to be successful individuals....its not about throwing the towel in and cutting the weight classes.
??? :o Not sure I understand your point here Aarons?? Unless, you are speaking specifically about your small business, pretty sure this is not a blanket statement that can be made across all businesses...actually, I am more than pretty sure...it doesn't even come close to being true about the majority of businesses.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 15, 2016, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on December 15, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
If sales were to dip in your business, would you keep all the employees if it could possibly bring down your business? Many businesses fail by failing to see the data right there in front of them.
First off many businesses fail because they are to quick to cut...not look at ways to improve and grow.
Secondly high school wrestling is not a business.....its an extension of the classrooms...its about creating opportunities for kids to learn to be successful individuals....its not about throwing the towel in and cutting the weight classes.
If the community and administration has a school building out in the country that it simply can't fill with students, but they can close that school to save money and the kids will then go help fill another building, that's what will typically happen.
Our 9.8 varsity wrestlers per team average is looking like that to people who both know, and don't know wrestling. Fewer weights would create on average fuller more competitive varsities and fuller more competitive JV. Selling our product to the people who are in charge is paramount.
a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē/
noun
a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 15, 2016, 12:01:08 PM
a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē/
noun
a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
Lol....so the basic structure of a business is the same as a school? No not at all....except both involve budgets and paying employees.....
It is a regional thing.
aarons your in an area with heavy population, good/great wrestling schools and more future wrestlers to pick from and grow as a sport.
I dont think football is in to much trouble compared to wrestling but the WIAA has seen the need for 8/9 man football for the schools that just cannt field a 11 man football team.
Now with the regional thing, I think some that are in a more dense population area dont see the problem with having kids. I challenge them to wonder to a less populated area and check it out.
If your school is 150 from 9-12 and half of them are boys and you have 3 winter sports for the boys, do you think you can field full teams in all sports? Your always going to get some kids that work, grades or dont want to be in a winter sport. In all honesty, in schools that size you basically need ALL kids on deck to be able to field full teams in all 3 sports. Which is a pipe dream though Athens was able to did it back in the day.
That is why I say go to 2 divisions one with 14 and one with 12. I think that would still give those teams a with big numbers to compete with 14 and those with very small numbers compete with 12. Simple plan I believe.
Also with the 2 divisions, if your a smaller school but have a huge amount of kids you have the chance on a yearly or bi-yearly chance to move up to the 14 or move down to 12 depending on the numbers you have.
In the district I am at I am projecting over the next 2-5 years will will have 25-35 kids in the room and I am figuring that some middle schoolers will not go out also.
The problem we have in those number is the fact we dont have hardly any kids that will project over 182. Sure we can move kids around to fill spots but really thin with the big guys. Also many of the parents of those kids I talk about are NOT very big people. not saying the kids will not grow but it is more likely they probably arent going to grow from 100 to 250 in 2-5 years.
Wasnt long ago at my district that we filled the upper weights but at the time had to FF the lighter weights. Small towns go in cycles, believe it or not that is what is going to happen.
Quote from: littleguy301 on December 15, 2016, 12:37:57 PM
In the district I am at I am projecting over the next 2-5 years will will have 25-35 kids in the room and I am figuring that some middle schoolers will not go out also.
The problem we have in those number is the fact we dont have hardly any kids that will project over 182. Sure we can move kids around to fill spots but really thin with the big guys. Also many of the parents of those kids I talk about are NOT very big people. not saying the kids will not grow but it is more likely they probably arent going to grow from 100 to 250 in 2-5 years.
Wasnt long ago at my district that we filled the upper weights but at the time had to FF the lighter weights. Small towns go in cycles, believe it or not that is what is going to happen.
So isn't this where the high school coaches would need to see this trend you are talking about and get cracking on recruiting "projected" big guys?
We just wrestled another Middle School with a gigantic population...they had 7 kids on their team. There's is a failure somewhere in their organization. That's unreal.
You need good coaches from kids to middle school to high school. You need everyone working together and hands in all three areas. We have been working to elevate our entire program since 2006. It takes foresight, planning and continuous reflection on how to keep getting better at accommodating all levels. You need a strong youth program that involves kids and makes money to help support the whole product. That being said, we still have to recruit first year Freshman. You need to work all aspects and that includes recruiting first year kids as freshman.
More focus on improving your entire wrestling organization and less focus on lowering the amount of weights. I'd like to think either option could work; I just prefer the former.
Ctonsor......I work in one of the larger districts in MN. PLEASE don't tell me I have not worked hard enough or that I have not used the right methods. You would be wrong, period. Sometimes you can do everything right over the long haul even and it does not work.
Too much emphasis on duals is one of the problems not less. As far a weights and such. I have posted the CDC body weights here last time this debate was going on so I will not likely bother again but when the debate comes around to what weights have I will.
MNBadger...I'm not saying that I have no idea what you have or have not done. I would be willing to bet you haven't done it perfectly all those years. There are always ups and downs, new coaches, new board members, outside circumstances where kids quit or move. I'm sure you work your butt off. But can you honestly say you have been perfect? It's hard to swallow when a school of 300 can put out full teams left and right but a school of 1500 can't fill a team or find or create decent wrestlers. Somewhere there was or is a problem. Lowering the number of weigt classes is somehow going to change that outcome? I don't see it. All I see is it hindering the schools that did it right and propping up the schools who do not. Effort isnt the only thing needed, as I am sure you know. I'm sure your effort is there. Good decisions need to be made in all facets at all levels.
Quote from: CTonsor on December 15, 2016, 01:49:35 PM
MNBadger...I'm not saying that I have no idea what you have or have not done. I would be willing to bet you haven't done it perfectly all those years. There are always ups and downs, new coaches, new board members, outside circumstances where kids quit or move. I'm sure you work your butt off. But can you honestly say you have been perfect? It's hard to swallow when a school of 300 can put out full teams left and right but a school of 1500 can't fill a team or find or create decent wrestlers. Somewhere there was or is a problem. Lowering the number of weigt classes is somehow going to change that outcome? I don't see it. All I see is it hindering the schools that did it right and propping up the schools who do not. Effort isnt the only thing needed, as I am sure you know. I'm sure your effort is there. Good decisions need to be made in all facets at all levels.
This!
Actually Dman I did not claim to be perfect but I will tell you I have done all the things successful programs do 90% of the time. To be clear, I am against retraction so we agree there.
As far as the "good old days" when I wrestled there were plenty of forfeits and plenty of "not ready" wrestlers on varsity.
I would welcome a discussion with anyone in regard to what I did/have done and how. I can show you/tell you everything down to the most minute detail, trust me.
http://highschoolsports.lehighvalleylive.com/news/article/-59756431875252285/rick-thompsons-right-lets-scrap-wrestling-dual-meet-tourneys-and-quads/
Interesting email from a former female collegiate student-athlete this morning. "Hey Coach, you'd be proud of me, I went to my high school's wrestling meet last night (yes, I was working a fundraiser for softball). But honestly, it was the most boring thing. There were like 6 or 7 forfeits, so the whole match lasted about 30 minutes, oh there was like 2 Jv matches but that was it. Our team won, so that's good but how can you even call it a varsity sport when there aren't enough players to fill the team? At least with basketball every team can find 5-7 players."
Well, there you have it. Public reaction, and a very honest one. She was talking about two schools with over 700 student each. It's what we already know and we have all heard from others as well as we have probably said to ourselves, "Forfeits and no JV matches are really hurting our sport in the view of the public eye. Let's really think, and talk, about getting the number of weights to and attainable and achievable number for the majority of our schools. The tough schools, with great tradition and coaching will still be great, no doubts about that, but what will will have less of is the parity. We will still have some schools that have only 8-9 guys, but maybe without giving up 30 points in forfeits, they can do some giant slaying. THAT is what our sport needs to help revive it. Similar to the article Aarons posted, we need some good ol' high-stakes duals and get our gyms rockin' again. Start it out with a solid JV effort to lead into the Varsity.
Think about it.
I am in favor of reducing wt classes..I am in a community that has many co-op teams, very rural. Several schools may be closing with-in a few years. Enrollments are declining and it is very hard to fill 14 weight classes, let alone 12. IMO, the top teams should be leaders in what is good for our sport. If the strong teams stay strong, and the lesser teams get weaker, what teams will push our good teams to be stronger.
I believe that is what is happening in our youth programs today, there is a minimal amount of mediocre wrestlers pushing our better wrestlers to be better. Look at the high school national rankings and see where our wrestlers are.
We need to reduce the weight classes in high school. Work together and make our youth tournaments more enjoyable and educational and our middle school events more interesting, for example, fight shorts and more duals or team scoring
The one thing I am not seeing on this thread is a simple word...
FUN
K-2 wrestlers view the sport as fun then as they get older parents get more competitive and winning becomes more important than having fun. Then we as a sport try to convince High School boys or girls who have never wrestled or haven't wrestled since second grade to come out and take a beating. We tell them to come out for wrestling because they will "work harder than other sports"...Sounds like a blast doesn't it??
I know I am in the minority here but the overall thought process of those "in charge of wrestling" are stuck in the 80's which many view as the glory days when we had 40 kids on every team and kids wanted to bust their butt on a daily basis.
Guess what...kids today are wired differently if they aren't having fun they aren't coming out...MAKE YOUR PROGRAM FUN and you will be surprised the change in numbers you will have. It isn't a change of the number of weight classes or another sports problems why are numbers suck it is the attitude of old school minded coaches and parents alike.
Have fun tearing this post apart as I am sure you all will!
Quote from: padre on December 16, 2016, 06:49:47 PM
Quote from: Handles II on December 16, 2016, 10:51:58 AM
Interesting email from a former female collegiate student-athlete this morning. "Hey Coach, you'd be proud of me, I went to my high school's wrestling meet last night (yes, I was working a fundraiser for softball). But honestly, it was the most boring thing. There were like 6 or 7 forfeits, so the whole match lasted about 30 minutes, oh there was like 2 Jv matches but that was it. Our team won, so that's good but how can you even call it a varsity sport when there aren't enough players to fill the team? At least with basketball every team can find 5-7 players."
Well, there you have it. Public reaction, and a very honest one. She was talking about two schools with over 700 student each. It's what we already know and we have all heard from others as well as we have probably said to ourselves, "Forfeits and no JV matches are really hurting our sport in the view of the public eye. Let's really think, and talk, about getting the number of weights to and attainable and achievable number for the majority of our schools. The tough schools, with great tradition and coaching will still be great, no doubts about that, but what will will have less of is the parity. We will still have some schools that have only 8-9 guys, but maybe without giving up 30 points in forfeits, they can do some giant slaying. THAT is what our sport needs to help revive it. Similar to the article Aarons posted, we need some good ol' high-stakes duals and get our gyms rockin' again. Start it out with a solid JV effort to lead into the Varsity.
Think about it.
LOL That email has to be made up. Who would email a former teacher knowing they liked wrestling to tell them how boring it was? The person has never been to one so should not have even known what to expect or really what was even going on. C'mon.
Actually, this email was 100% real. She has been to wrestling in the past but probably not for ten years or so. Not made up. I could see how you might think it was because it was so cliché, but honestly that is the best point possible. We all know this is being said, even y wrestling lovers.
I talking about kids today...
Our high school basketball coach that left a few years ago told me that he could not get kids to commit and work hard. He told me that if I had my choice of 7 players in the high school that were NOT out for basketball and we played against his varsity team, I would win. He was struggling with the goal of high school sports. It was about winning and he was judged by wins. But he also knew that if he changed his program and never had a practice then all these kids would show up for games and they would actually be better and win more games.
The same could be made of wrestling at our school. There is so much talent walking the halls that wrestled as youth and middle schoolers but are not wrestling in high school. Maybe if we never had practice they would compete in competitions and we could fill all 14 weight classes and would be better?
How do we learn from this?
1) Youth sports are too focused on competitions and not development and practice. This is in all sports. By the time they get to high school they do not want to practice and just want the events. So youth and middle school sports have to change and reduce competitions. This is a kind of burnout because seasons are longer and there are more competitions in youth sports compared to high school.
2) Old school coaches need to change and absolutely make it fun and maybe even easier. Wrestling does not have to be a 6 day a week sport with long Saturdays. Give kids days off, shorten practices, give weekends off, give hunting and Christmas breaks off, alter practice plans. I think you could have too sets of practice plans where all the above is done and helps with the seasonal wrestlers that we absolutely need in the room. Then you can have optional extra time after practices or additional days for those serious wrestlers that want the extra work. I truly believe that 5-8 less practices each season and 5-10 less matches by reducing number of long Saturday competitions is not going to cost kids glory once they get to state tournament series. Wrestling is tough to balance the goals of your die hard year round wrestlers with your seasonal wrestlers. You have to find a way to not treat and coach them the same.
Our football team has done both of these things and is having great success as one of the top teams in the state
Quote from: padre on December 16, 2016, 11:11:51 PM
Quote from: Preparewrestlingcoach on December 16, 2016, 10:22:07 PM
The one thing I am not seeing on this thread is a simple word...
FUN
K-2 wrestlers view the sport as fun then as they get older parents get more competitive and winning becomes more important than having fun. Then we as a sport try to convince High School boys or girls who have never wrestled or haven't wrestled since second grade to come out and take a beating. We tell them to come out for wrestling because they will "work harder than other sports"...Sounds like a blast doesn't it??
I know I am in the minority here but the overall thought process of those "in charge of wrestling" are stuck in the 80's which many view as the glory days when we had 40 kids on every team and kids wanted to bust their butt on a daily basis.
Guess what...kids today are wired differently if they aren't having fun they aren't coming out...MAKE YOUR PROGRAM FUN and you will be surprised the change in numbers you will have. It isn't a change of the number of weight classes or another sports problems why are numbers suck it is the attitude of old school minded coaches and parents alike.
Have fun tearing this post apart as I am sure you all will!
Just wondering what you mean by making it fun? I mean I try as hard as possible to get kids to have fun and build a team chemistry to want to do it not only for themselves but for their teammates but at the end of the day they have to get out on the mat and compete. Losing is not fun...and I wonder if I'm missing something that I hold my wrestlers accountable to hard work and dedication....which most of the time is not always fun.
I've found those that are just out to mess around and have fun aren't around long. But those that learn that hard work will get them success seem to stick around much longer. The fun is in winning matches...but maybe I'm missing something.
I am talking about the little things:
The tough thing is it has to start in youth with parents...little things like not being afraid to let kids play games whether it is silly things like swim fishy swim or wrestling games like king of the mat, or the toe touch game, or scramble drills...kids love to play. I know Ben Askren has stated that wrestling to much live to early and I couldn't agree more. The focus of our goals needs to be on learning the sport and the techniques.
At the High School level team chemistry as huge as you stated anything you can do to get new kids to feel like they are a part of the "wrestling family is huge" As far as having fun it does get more difficult as you eluded to we have a LOT that we have to do to get our kids ready...that doesn't prevent us from setting up fun things for our kids to do...after practice dodgeball (and other variations), Marko at Campbellsport has perhaps the coolest dodgeball games I have ever heard about, team dinners (even if they are set up by coaches and coaches do not attend), scrimmaging a freshman, JV basketball, or swim team in basketball (it is unbelievable how much fun wrestlers have trying to play basketball).
You would be surprised how happy a kid that just got his butt kicked all practice can be just because he won a meaningless dodgeball game after practice. Those are just a few ideas...
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 17, 2016, 09:11:15 AM
Are there any states that have less then 14 weight classes? If so how has it helped or resolved them giving up points in there duals?
If there is no data that supports cutting weight classes is a solution to resolving forfeit points I would then vote for letting another state try it and use there kids as test rats. With out data proving this would resolve a points issue my vote would be to solve issues within our control.
I don't think so. I've looked on track wrestling.
I would love to have a lab rat state try it of course first. Wisconsin isn't as dire as other states in regards to wrestling. Alaska is one state I looked at the state tournament for, and basically if you have a pulse you make it to state. Kids with 3-10 records make it.
I think states are afraid to try something different because they lose their vote in the national federation. I don't understand why this really matters, but I think it does. We don't get a vote right now, so maybe we SHOULD be the test state? We seem to be in the position to do so? I do know that the WIAA will never go away from the federation weights. So if you are worried, don't be. It won't happen until the rest of the country figures it out.
The only data we would have would be to show that before we had 14 weights, we had more kids. But really that's not a fair study. We all know that there are other reasons besides the weight classes.
Since 2005, the number of teams filling 12 or less weights at regionals (all three divisions combined) has risen from 56.7% to 68.0%.
14 (106-285) : Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, N. Carolina, N. Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, S. Carolina, S. Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, W. Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming.
Michigan 14: 103, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285
New York, Pennsylvania, Vermont 15: 99, 106-285
Alaska, Idaho 15: 98, 106-285
Hawaii 15: 108, 114, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285, 500 (I'm guessing this is a somewhat unlimited weight class)
Montana 13: 103, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 205, 285
Hopefully I didn't miss any states.
I think the issue was in the .5 per day weight loss, yes. When we move to the %loss system I think we are back at the table.
Fourteen weight classes is probably to many. Eleven I have always thought is probably the correct number as a whole for the entire state. I get that some teams can fill a full lineup, but most teams cant. I also get the argument that we would be eliminating varsity spots for kids, we would be for some teams. Our team can currently fill a full varsity lineup with solid kids and we also have a good core j.v. team. But it always wasn't like this for us. It was a lot of hard work with a lot of dedicated individuals to get it to that point. I don't think most communities have that many people willing to put in the time to get it to that point.
I fully believe there should be lighter weight classes but varsity weight classes should be situated towards upperclassmen. Not freshman and sophomores. You typically don't see juniors and seniors until the 120lb weight class. Yes there are the exceptions but for the most part 106 and 113 are for freshman and sophomores.
I also have never understood the mind set "what about the stud 85lber in eighth grade that only weighs 100lbs his freshman year. They would probably quit if they can't wrestle varsity if you don't have 106 and 113". I highly don't they would quit wrestling if they are really good at it and have to wrestle j.v. for a year or two because they can't beat out the junior or senior 120lber. They would just wrestle j.v. just like the stud freshman 160lber would can't beat out the junior or senior to make varsity. I saw this when we have a pile of great lighter weight wrestlers. It benefits our team to have the lighter weights. I wish we still had 98lbs right now! But as a whole for all of the state teams the lightest weights are not good. It is a have or a have not incoming club wrestlers from 8th grade. There are very few in betweens for the lighter weights.
Do you think the varsity football coach is concerned that the stud 8th grade tailback is going to quit football because he can't play varsity football his freshman year because he is only 5'9" 150lbs? Or do you think he is saying a couple of years on freshman and j.v. and that kid is going to be a player for us. That 5'9" 150lb freshman would get hammered on the varsity football field.
Here are my weight classes,
116, 124, 132, 140, 148, 157, 166, 177, 188, 210, 285
No growth allowance, not 1lb for extra days of wrestling, nothing. 116 is 116 the first dual of the year to the last day of state. It would be primarily only upperclassmen at these weights. I think fewer kids would open enroll because generally the kids that open enroll are going to the best teams in the state and they might not want to wait to crack the lineup. The duals would be a lot tighter of scores and the competition would be really tough for the varsity spots. Yes some good kids would quit but I don't think many. I would also make it 4 divisions in wrestling.
11??????? Why dont we just jump right to 1.....sorry but thats a rediculous number. Making the lowest weight 116 is also rediculous.... wrestling is the one sport built for all sizes and you want to punish the little guy???? Which 106 pounders last year at the state tournament didnt deserve to be there? Of course you will say they all deserved it but your logic doesnt support that. Not sure I understand the cut to 11 weight classes but go to 4 divisions???
You talk about how your school struggled to fill weight classes but through hard work and commitment you guys got the ship right......do not believe other schools can do the hard work? Maybe instead of promoting cutting weight classes, promote the process your school used to grow your program. What school are you at?
Aaron I coach at Waunakee. I saw the process it took at Waunakee over the last 4 years that I have been involved at Waunakee and the 5 years before that I was coaching at another conference school before we moved to Waunakee. It has taken no less than 30 incredibly motivated and selfless individuals to build up the youth program, start fund raisers, run multiple youth tournaments, organize camps, have spring and summer wrestling, coach at the state team level, get kids to club practice, take kids to summer camps, highly promote freestyle and Greco. I look at where we are versus 5 years ago and it is a big difference. But it took a lot of people to get it there. I don't think most communities have that many people that are willing to help or the resources to get it done. I would look like to hope so but being realistic I don't think so.
I think 11 as a whole for the state is best. Not for our team, we are good with 14 and could run out more varsity caliber kids this year. Heck stoughton could probably run out another 10 varsity caliber kids on their team!
Yes I would say every state qualifier at 106 deserved to be at state last year. You don't get to state by luck. It is hard and those young men should be very proud of what they accomplished. What I am saying is that if you want to gear the sport towards upperclassmen then I would start at 116. I am fine with the current weights, I just see which ones most teams are struggling to fill.
My thought with four divisions is that there is a large discrepancy in divisions one and three with enrollment from top to bottom. I think it's really hard for the schools with the enrollments on the bottom end to compete. None of the changes that I am talking about would benefit the team I coach, it would actually hurt us. But I am looking at wrestling as a whole in the state and this is what I see. I have been reading this forum for years and this topic is a very hot debate among the wrestling community. You are either for a reduction or can't grasp how other people want to eliminate wrestling opportunities for kids. It's similar to Clinton and Trump. Almost everyone had a opinion on who was best and no matter what anyone said to you, you weren't going to change your mind.
Couple of things Troy....106 isnt even the most ff weight class every year....couple years ago it was 145. Your plan does absolutely nothing to increase participation and retain wrestlers....in fact reducing to 11 will most likely reduce participation and make our sport only for those who wrestle year around....at elite clubs....others will see the writing on the wall and find something else to do. I also think your selling the wrestling community out when you dont believe they can replicate what you guys have done in Waunakee. Great job by the way....please help other communities learn how you did it. We have d3 schools (which have larger problems than d2 or1)making it work....so I'm positive the d2 and d1s can do it. It does take the right people to work together....just because your a good coach doesnt mean your a good program builder.
aarons
what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?
I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.
I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.
So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.
Quote from: littleguy301 on December 18, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
aarons
what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?
I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.
I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.
So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.
Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders. Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself. The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs. If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow.
Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.
High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 18, 2016, 11:16:18 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on December 18, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
aarons
what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?
I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.
I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.
So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.
Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders. Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself. The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs. If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow.
Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.
High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great.
So what's the non profit organization? Never heard it talked about and who is it helping?
Quote from: padre on December 18, 2016, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 18, 2016, 11:16:18 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on December 18, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
aarons
what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?
I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.
I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.
So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.
Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders. Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself. The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs. If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow.
Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.
High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great.
So what's the non profit organization? Never heard it talked about and who is it helping?
Thanks for asking....we will be posting an official statement about K.N.O.W. this week. One thing we already announced was Wisconsin Red national dual team....its only one of aspects of K.N.O.W. (kids need opportunities wrestling).
Aaron's, you say high school isn't about wins and loses but I have reffed many duals of teams forfeiting back and forth or double forfeiting to create that one matchup that will win them the dual.competitve teams that have a chance at winning duals bring the team and community together and builds excitement and support.less weight classes will help create competitive teams in a dual setting.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 18, 2016, 11:16:18 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on December 18, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
aarons
what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?
I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.
I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.
So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.
Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders. Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself. The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs. If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow.
Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.
High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great.
work closely, administration, coach, recruit, drop your kids off not sure what that means though I am sure your involved in many of the schools you are associated with.
We need good youth and middle to allow the high schools to grow, I totally agree. Though I will say go to the less populated schools and middle schools are dropping because of lack of funding. Sounds whinning but being honest.
never heard of K.N.O.W. glad you brought it up for discussions. Also using dual teams that are basically a couple of clubs putting something together isnt growing the entire state of wrestling.
Like I said, wrestling is different from areas/regions to others. It works in some areas, other it just plain doesnt.
I am glad that schools offer wrestling even though it is low numbers. It is great to give kids chances to compete. Though the proof is in the pudding when we are seeing that teams are filling out on an average of 10 out of 14 weights. I am sure the football team wouldnt get a chance to compete if they filled out only 75% of the positions. Same goes with the other sports.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 18, 2016, 12:05:06 PM
I ask this question in an honest attempt to get an authentic a real answer.
What is stopping schools from scheduling duals with school of similar circumstances? Full teams should be scheduling duals with other full teams.
I understand conference play may be difficult, but if the WIAA would change there rule of triangular and quad's being counted as a tournament. You could work with teams with less then full rosters so we can get the painful duals out of the way in one or two evenings, and with a packed house. I understand Wrightstown just accomplished a great 5 team dual last Thursday. It sounds like it was very well ran and kids got in plenty of matches.
We have to appreciate coaches that are innovative and "Find" solutions.
I may be ignorant but it seems like a partial salution to a difficult issue.
The conference can be the issue. If you have a 8 team conference, you have to wrestle it and don't have the opportunity to schedule a non conference. I dealt with this first hand this year. We had a very good and competitive non conference dual but had to drop it because we added a team to the conference. Normally you think hey a team was added, that's great. We'll not so much. The team that was added broke off of a existing co-op with 3 kids. They currently have 1 kid wrestling. So I had to drop a quality non conference dual for essentially one kid! It's a joke.
Quote from: padre on December 18, 2016, 12:19:01 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 18, 2016, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: padre on December 18, 2016, 11:26:18 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 18, 2016, 11:16:18 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on December 18, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
aarons
what are your things YOU are doing to stop the decreasing enrollment in wrestling?
I think we all know that Ghetto has worked his hind end off in the program he is at. So when Ghetto talks about the declining numbers and how to address it, I will listen because I know he has been doing something to try to increase numbers or at the very least remain the same.
I hear more and more coaches saying that less weight classes is something to look into. I also hear that from administration and state officials. I also believe those are directly involved.
So aarons I want to hear what you feel needs to be done and what you are doing to abtain that goal.
Honestly...I work closely with our youth program, middle school programs and high school programs to recruit, get wrestlers that need more get more, help the wrestlers that need less get less...I don't ever portray the we cant do it attitude...as I said before...good coaches even great coaches are not necessarily good program builders. Ghettos school is to big to use these excuses....ghetto is a great coach....most kids he coaches would run through wall for him.....but ghetto can't do it by himself. The middle school there needs a complete over haul....Im not sure they even have a youth programs. If you dont fix the middle school and youth....dont expect your high school to grow.
Im also involved in a non profit that was exclusively formed to help wrestling grow in Wisconsin on all levels....we didnt start this to watch it shrink. We didn't start this for our own kids...but for those who need help at any level.
High school isnt about the wins or losses...so lets stop trying to shrink wrestling so it,appears to be a full team...because when you shrink it...your no longer including everyone.....which is the reason our sport is so great.
So what's the non profit organization? Never heard it talked about and who is it helping?
Thanks for asking....we will be posting an official statement about K.N.O.W. this week. One thing we already announced was Wisconsin Red national dual team....its only one of aspects of K.N.O.W. (kids need opportunities wrestling).
OK...kind of thought that was what it was about...these traveling teams mostly help those that make decisions to spend 1,000s to go get a few tough matches. They are the top tier kids and while its a generous notion its helping the top 1 percent....thats not where its needed in general to actually grow the sport IMO.
Actually you are would be wrong... first off KNOW was created for much more than the dual team....that is just one aspect. But getting Wisconsin kids who normally dont get to compete at the national level, competing there is growing wrestling for the entire state. Yes it started off with 2 clubs...but the goal is to grow beyond that.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 18, 2016, 12:38:18 PM
Understood my question was if they changed the rule of a triangle and quad no longer counting as a tournament.
KNOW
Is already helping kids that are talented but could never get to these national events. Many of the kids in the team are kids from single parent families that don't have the time or money to get this type of opportunity. We are also currently raising money to help inner city and rural kids to camps at no cost. We just received a 72 passenger buss to help get kids to events they would have not been able to get to.
KNOW is 100% committed to giving every committed wrestler the same opportunity that only privileged kids may have received in the past.
So LG and Padre let's give it a chance before we look down on it. Several of us are out there trying some out of the box ideas, we are putting a lot of personal resources into making a few dents in the Sport for local kids.
first off I NEVER put it down!!!!! So lets not get to hasty on this.
I stated I never heard of K.N.O.W until aarons brought it up.
I also know nothing about expect what I read on another thread about the teams Wisconsin sent to Virginia. I read that some/all/one was mainly put together from wrestlers from 2 clubs. So what I meant in that was 2 clubs putting togethers kids for 1/2/3/4 teams from Wisconsin isnt exactly growing the sport in an entire state wide aspect.
I support the teams and I am excited to see that they performed very well out east, I truely do support those teams. I know it takes alot of time and money for all involved and happy to see what they did.
I think getting rid of the 7 and 7 is a starting point.
conference with 8 teams. Well wrestle the conference duals in 2 nights. Make it a quad meet situation. Then let the schools go out and decide where they want there other duals/tournaments to come from.
I want to hear more about K.N.O.W. maybe start a thread with the topic!
In my area (northwest Wisconsin) it seems to me that hearing more about these chances should be advertised more. Maybe I am in the dark about it but like I said havent heard anything about this until now.
more information would be a pleasure!!!!!!! websight? facebook? twitter? instragram? anything I think would be a pleasure to the state of wisconsin.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 18, 2016, 01:07:40 PM
LG
With out the fund raising we have done so far, I would say half of the kids couldn't have went to any of the 5 events they are attending.
We are excited to see where this can go, we have already notified the state coach to let him know we are willing to help with the state Cadet and JR team. Weather it's helping with mat time or finances to Fargo or Worlds. We also want to start doing camps for schools that don't have the resources along with reduced fee's for kids that want to do more in wrestling but are maybe from a single parent home or a home that the parents are working just to stay a float.
I didnt ask about fund raising, I asked to know alot more about this. I know in my area there would be some pretty interested kids/parents in this.
Like I said, I knew nothing of this until it was brought up!
Lg...KNOW is a work in progress...our first task was to get the dual team up and running, and it is. We proud to know we have several wrestlers competing at the national level that would not have had the opportunity otherwise. You can not deny thats good for the sport and good for these wrestlers surrounding communities when other kids want to do the same.
We are now forming the plans for other aspects....maybe the most important aspect ofs of KNOW, raising money to actually being able to help those in need. Its not happening over night....its a lot of work for all of us involved....but our vision of what we can accomplish is worth it.
The 8 team conference. One solution many in our conference use is to schedule your conference dual at a Saturday dual tournament. We are at a tourney where one of the teams in our conference that struggles with numbers is at as well. We count the dual as our conference dual and it opens us up to schedule a more competitive non conference dual with more JV opportunities and they schedule someone that matches their strengths. Pewaukee has a couple conf. Teams at their dual tournament and can then schedule matches against Mukwonago and Cedarburg last year and Stratford this year.
KNOW sounds a good idea for kids already established in wrestling. It doesn't seem like it is designed to help the majority of schools fill their varsity rosters, or to keep programs from being cut
You guys are free to start a new thread about it, but this isn't where that discussion belongs.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 15, 2016, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on December 15, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
If sales were to dip in your business, would you keep all the employees if it could possibly bring down your business? Many businesses fail by failing to see the data right there in front of them.
First off many businesses fail because they are to quick to cut...not look at ways to improve and grow.
Secondly high school wrestling is not a business.....its an extension of the classrooms...its about creating opportunities for kids to learn to be successful individuals....its not about throwing the towel in and cutting the weight classes.
Complete misunderstanding just like Obama Care !!!!!!!!
Those who approach wrestling like a business have far more success than those who approach itm
like an entitlment.....but that concept is really tough for you to understand Aaron...I can help you understand if you would like.
Quote from: ramjet on December 18, 2016, 04:37:45 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 15, 2016, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on December 15, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
If sales were to dip in your business, would you keep all the employees if it could possibly bring down your business? Many businesses fail by failing to see the data right there in front of them.
First off many businesses fail because they are to quick to cut...not look at ways to improve and grow.
Secondly high school wrestling is not a business.....its an extension of the classrooms...its about creating opportunities for kids to learn to be successful individuals....its not about throwing the towel in and cutting the weight classes.
Complete misunderstanding just like Obama Care !!!!!!!!
Those who approach wrestling like a business have far more success than those who approach itm
like an entitlment.....but that concept is really tough for you to understand Aaron...I can help you understand if you would like.
Lol...I always love your banter Ram....but the business end of it, I think Im doing OK.....stop and visit us in our second location in Appleton this spring.
Yes there are aspects of school that should be run like a business....not things like reducing numbers for any sport.....now I have said before that d3 has a different set of problems than 2 or 3 and would be open to changes......but I certainly believe d2 and D1 has every ability to make it work.
We need some fencing done in Cashton. :)
I was reminded by someone probably smarter than I that I got sucked into something I shouldn't....im sorry.
wow this took a terrible detour.
Bottom line, I think anything that promotes our sport and helps it is a plus to the 10th degree.
The problem is that while starting this and hopefully going forward with this isnt going to solve the problem of state wide decline in wrestling. Sorry if I hurt anyones feeling but it is not and I am looking at this through open eyes.
These clubs will help out many kids achieve their dreams in the sport.
Another problem is and we as coaches/parents/fans have to realize that wrestling is not all kids in the sports favorite sport. Thus those kids are putting their shoes on in Novemeber and taking them off in Febuary. Football, soccer, baseball, golf, tennis, track and field maybe their sport of choice.
What I see in alot of sports and also in wrestling is that you have 2 kids that are equal threw youth and one of them desides wrestling is their sport. They start taking more outside the season wrestling and advance farther than the other. It becomes kind of one sided and the next thing you know is that the second kid is no longer in the sport.
What I dont want to see is that wrestling becoming a club sport and not a school sport.
2 divisions, one with 14 weights and another with 12 weights.
Sorry guys to rain on the parade, while I DO feel your creating spots and growth, I see way to many schools struggling to get kids out for wrestling. Heck I see numbers in ALL sports on the down ward cycle which isnt something that is needed.
From what I understand after a few years in football is that the schools that dropped to 8/9 man football are actually seeing numbers in their respective programs on the rise.
Kids know, they dont want to be on a team that gets totally throttled but if they are in a situation that they can compete they will.
Didnt like the drop to 8/9 man football at first but now I see more schools willing and doing and they still have football I like it more and more.
In wrestling if you cannt field a 14 man team, we HAVE to look at a 12 man option.
I agree LG. If you have watched 8 man it is fun to watch, very action packed with creative offenses. The move -3 wt classes never made sense as they added a wt class between 125 and 145. The we do away with the that add and add 2 wtclasses over 182 (use to be 185 but we use to start at 98). Maybe we could go back to the pre 1989 weights and add 8 # to every weight class.
106, 113, 120, 127, 134, 140, 146, 153, 163, 177, 193, HWT
I wouldn't look at as reducing opportunities but rather reversing a poor decision. 12 may not be right and may not help numbers but I never felt like 14 was correct.
Some have said we will lose some talented wrestlers and I do fear they are right. I have heard of varsity members quiting when teammates drop and they get bumped out, that is sad, not sure how to stop that.
bigoil,,,,,I think we are thinking the same as weight classes and the combining.
I have never really like the adding of classes in the upper weights. I personally feel the 220 pound class did hurt the HWT class some.
I can see a little more stretching of the upper weights and ending at 200. I am sure that 220 pound football guy would cut to 200 and may lose them but...........
Quote from: littleguy301 on December 18, 2016, 08:46:04 PM
From what I understand after a few years in football is that the schools that dropped to 8/9 man football are actually seeing numbers in their respective programs on the rise.
Kids know, they dont want to be on a team that gets totally throttled but if they are in a situation that they can compete they will.
Didnt like the drop to 8/9 man football at first but now I see more schools willing and doing and they still have football I like it more and more.
In wrestling if you cannt field a 14 man team, we HAVE to look at a 12 man option.
Who thinks some D2 and D3 conferences (or the WIAA) would support 12 man teams for duals or dual tournaments? On the chance that happens, very unlikely they get different weight classes.
So those 12 person varsity teams likely just scratch 106 and 195 for duals (and maybe a conference tournament). I would expect all other individual tournaments and the state tournament series to stay the same.
Result: A few 106 and 195 wrestlers wrestle JV or spot someone 10% body weight. The dual meets eliminate up to 4 forfeits and maybe creates 1 or 2 more matches for each dual. So maybe a small benefit to the dual atmosphere, but would it really be worth it?
I think reducing to 10 or 11 weights actually increases opportunities. Riding on a bus for an hour to weigh is not an opportunity, actually wrestling a match and competing is the opportunity. Reducing the number of weight classes immediately improves competition on and individual and team basis. I had been out of HS wrestling for six years, never even went to a dual, just got back into coaching and yikes! Wrestling has a long way to go to become relevant. Wrestling needs marquee matches and close duals filled with wrestling.
We need meets and matches that are competitive. Matches need to be wrestled! People do not want to watch forfeits.
The big elephant in the room that needs to be solved is how bush league our JV is ran compared to other sports. We need to run them as duals with guys actually making weights and a team score! I think this would actually help teams recruit kids. Teams would need to fill specific weights to have a full JV. This is possible for a lot of schools if there were only 10-11 weights. You can run exhibition after the dual for extra JV guys. This would improve competition and a sense of belonging to a team. I know a common argument is that there is no way teams will fill a JV squad, how do we know if we have never tried? Let a kid new to the sport wrestle on JV for a year or two to learn how to wrestle instead of throwing him to the wolves because we need to fill a weight. If the weights were condensed teams might be able to develop kids and keep them out for the sport.
Maybe bring back the tradition of starting at 106 and ending at 285. More fan friendly and creates the suspense build up. Or maybe I just miss the good old days lol.
These may not be the answers but the current path wrestling is on is not a good one unless we want to become a club sport. If we are a club sport I guess it would improve Freestyle and Grece results internationally.
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 19, 2016, 06:09:59 AM
The issue isn't the weight classes, weather we have 11 or go up to 15 as some have. I had the opportunity to talk to a few coaches in NE WI yesterday and the common theme from them was they each lost returning wrestlers because of all the weekend tournaments. Kids actually would like to hang out with there buddies or earn money or if there lucky maybe even go on a date (if they still do that).
Change the 7 & 7 rule and offer some of the mid tear tournaments (8 team) on a Friday night and I guarantee most teams would pick up a couple more wrestlers.
How cool would it be not to have to weigh in Thursday and Again on Saturday?
If we no longer counted triangle and quads as a tournament there could be some great matches on Thursday or Friday and garanteed matches.
Go to a 7 & 4 rule but open duals to quads and the kids would get in the same number of matches and they would get some of there weekends back.
This change would get more kids out.
To clarify I am not referring to small
Would we still have foriets? Yes
Would we care? No
As a business owner I always challenge my team to think as a consumer and all the legitimate reasons a consumer would not join our business. The number one reason the consumer doesn't join is it's hard work, number 2 reasons is time. Sound Familiar??
So the last thing we want to do is let our rules and policies be an additional detour ant to them joining.
Many of the policies and lagistics are hurting the numbers, those things can be changed at the end of this season. Start with changes that everyone can support not some harsh change that only 50% of the wrestling community supports.
Listen to the kids and you will learn what to change, stop asking coaches and go right to the source. We need to ask the wrestlers that quit if they could get there weekends back, only have to weigh in once a week along with no more singlet would have you stayed in the sport.
Football and basketball are only 5 days a week, wrestling is 6. How many folks do we all know that complain about working overtime?
Cut weights? Sounds like the plan of a child.. thats just cutting out a tumor and not addressing the cancer, the cancer will return only a bigger tumor if cutting is the solution. I would hope everyone on this forum is smart enough to realize this, I know the WIAA was when it was presented to them. The Coaches association needs to come up with solutions to the problem and not just shove it aside with cuts. That is a very simple minded solution to a bigger problem.
First you always have to fix the morale, if you stop over loading/working your team they will be happier. A happy team doesn't quit and if they do it was out of our control.
To clarify I am not referring to small rural schools with declining student body's, I do respect those are different circumstances that may need a solution similarly to what we have seen with 9 man football, however the suggested changes would still apply at that level.
Two divisions (a 14 & 12 man) maybe an additional nessasary change in the near future, as we continue to see rural and inner city numbers drop.
I'm glad you modified your response as I don't think there is necessarily a right answer. There isn't much chance it changes so working for alternatives is the right way to go. Think of basketball, my daughter has a holiday tournament. Two whopping games, 28 hours apart. There are Saturday practices for FB and hoops but generally not games and never all day tournaments.
On 12 vs 14 it reminds me when Shell one year told customers to go from 4' racking to 6' racking. More product more sales. Just the opposite happened and in 2 years they were recommending going back to 4' shelves with less product.
I do think the weekends are a primary reason why a wrestler that actually wrestled in high school does not return the next year.
I do think we would have more people signing up to coach and happier wives if we had less Saturdays and long ones at that.
It seems that we just value matches for the sake of matches and competition and less on preparing for the state tournament series. I do think some 4 or 5 team scrimmages on a Friday night would be way to go and count as an event. Get the teams in a gym together on a couple mats for 2-3 hours. No weigh-ins. Each coach gets 20 minutes to demonstrate something and work on. All kids have to drill with a partner from another school. Then have an hour of live wrestling. now kids are improving with mat time. No have games with the teams competing against each other like dodgeball, relays, basketball games. Then have pizza. Then have weekend off!
I am very happy that our conference now does JV duals, then has exhibition matches, then has varsity dual.
Getpoints,
I agree with your sentiment that the amount of time + effort involved deters some kids from joining the sport, and others from continuing. Thanks for pointing that out.
At the same time, aren't you the one pushing for more kids to join private clubs and to practice and compete even more than kids already are? Saying that the private clubs know how to increase and improve numbers?
Which one will actually bring new kids into the sport?
So according to what you are quoting Jordan then, about kids not given time off is better and reduces quitting, your statement about too many practices and tournaments in the HS season and kids quitting because of that is false.
It can't be both ways.
I would disagree very much with your statement that "most" other sports are supported by private clubs. This might be true in high-population areas, and for some sports, but not even close in probably 2/3 or more of WI be it for wrestling or anything else. Look at football, no clubs at all that I'm aware of.
I'll say it again though, I don't believe private clubs help grow the sport of wrestling. They don't bring in many, if any, new kids into wrestling. What they do offer is extra time, effort, and money for those who are already involved in wrestling (mostly kids who have an early knack for the sport and/or from wrestling blood-lines). This isn't to knock the efforts of the clubs, however in this thread, for this argument of why we can't fill 14 weights consistently across the state, private clubs aren't adding to the numbers on H.S. teams. Those coaches aren't scouring the hallways and study halls trying to talk some kid into joining wrestling to fill the 195lb slot. They get kids who have already been in the sport for at least a couple years.
You would be surprised at how many clubs do bring new wrestlers into the room.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 19, 2016, 10:25:50 AM
You would be surprised at how many clubs do bring new wrestlers into the room.
Surprise me. I hope you aren't talking about "private" youth clubs affiliated with their HS like most towns have. But please, I'd love to see some statewide numbers of brand-new wrestlers that are joining HS teams due to solely private club recruiting. It would be great to see how many it is. I certainly believe there is some of that happening, but not much, and not state-wide, and not enough to get us filling 14 weight classes.
It is a regional thing, I will continue to say this over and over.
The east, southeast parts of the state have alot of population, industy, jobs and such to bring in coaches and people for employement, schools and other wise.
The problem is that in the way more rural areas there just arent the chances for many kids to get outside training and so on.
Those are the areas I keep bringing up. Those are the areas that school enrollment is declining, not as many jobs and lets face it, if someone didnt grow up in that area more than likely they are not moving in to settle down.
I think in those areas could be a higher % of declining numbers and so on.
In those areas are the kids that wrestle from Novemeber to Feb, play football from August to October and so on. Not many chances for private clubs or extra help.
Until people realize that sports in general is very different from regions to regions we are going to continue to have big problems with declining numbers.
Quote from: aarons23 on December 19, 2016, 10:25:50 AM
You would be surprised at how many clubs do bring new wrestlers into the room.
maybe in your area aarons. Just dont see it in other areas like this.
not trying to be negative, anything that helps wrestlings is a plus for me.
I just see shrinking numbers in all sports and many look at that with blindfolds on.
Quote from: Handles II on December 19, 2016, 10:30:46 AM
Quote from: aarons23 on December 19, 2016, 10:25:50 AM
You would be surprised at how many clubs do bring new wrestlers into the room.
Surprise me. I hope you aren't talking about "private" youth clubs affiliated with their HS like most towns have. But please, I'd love to see some statewide numbers of brand-new wrestlers that are joining HS teams due to solely private club recruiting. It would be great to see how many it is. I certainly believe there is some of that happening, but not much, and not state-wide, and not enough to get us filling 14 weight classes.
The problem we have with discussions on this forum is everyone wants to be so black and white.....wrestling isn't just black and white. Yes private clubs all over our state are running programs with new wrestlers....Yes the majority of that is for the younger age group....but that is still helping grow wrestling numbers. I don't know of a single private club that doesn't take new wrestlers. AWA has Ninjas, Ringers has Pre Elite. Many times someones buddy decides they want to try what their buddy is doing and does so. No matter how we get them interested it still is a good thing. I am not saying the private clubs are bringing in huge numbers but to act as if private clubs are not helping is not true either. Also no one thing will solve the problem it will take a group effort of many things by many people.
Private Clubs do allot to promote this sport and to bring new wrestlers to it. I laugh when HandlesII gets on this kick because he feels that only beauracracy and Government can improve something. It is his philosophical stubbornness that does allow not allow him to see the benefit of these Clubs collaborating and organizing fun events that attract kids. Like I said they have an advantage over schools only because they are NOT ham strung by beauracracy and regulation.
Schools do have an advantage in that they have captive audience and yet cannot always get kids in the room. Why is that? Yet a business who charges to come can fill the rooms and they do not have said captive audience. So it stands to reason they are doing something right or they could not afford to keep the doors open.
Please Ramjet, show us the numbers of kids who have joined their HS team strictly because they were recruited by a private team to begin the sport of wrestling. List names and schools. I've never once said it hasn't happened, but I will say that it doesn't happen for the majority of wrestlers and/or teams. They simply aren't helping fill our weight classes beyond a couple handfuls of kids state-wide. And while I appreciate any additions to what we have, I'm not going to pretend like some on here that private clubs are the key to filling 14 weights. There are also plenty of witnesses saying that for one kid who joins HS wrestling because of a private club, another one or more quits the sport.
We have getyourpoints saying in one post that wrestling takes too much time and effort, too many weekends, so kids quit, and in another saying that kids should join private clubs to work harder and put in more time and weekends so they won't quit. ???
I'm collecting and showing data on the number of wrestlers entered in tournaments. If you want to argue that data, fine, but please start a new thread on your topic and show the data as well.
HandlesII is in region and league of his own. He espouses data collected from others research and uses that make his way thinking purposeful. That way he can never be wrong..........I.e you see he ne'er addressed my assertion that Schools actually have an advantage for recruiting in that it's free and they have captive audience. Why because he is a teacher and takes great umbrage in my claim. ;D
Ramjet, I've schooled you so many times it isn't even fun anymore. And I collected data on my own, thank you. Certainly I took the idea from the guillotine poster. In fact, the title and first post actually mentioned it, so that's another loss for you.
Get points. I don't have any doubt that some private clubs are adding numbers, but until there are some numbers for people to see, it's pretty tough to say it is an impact on the problem state wide. Also, which side are you actually on... Too many practices and meets make kids quit, or practice and tournaments all year make them stay in? It's just kind of confusing. I think both have merit, but that's too wide of an aisle for anyone straddle as a solution to this issue.
Ramjet, "Private Clubs do allot to promote this sport and to bring new wrestlers to it. I laugh when HandlesII gets on this kick because he feels that only beauracracy and Government can improve something. It is his philosophical stubbornness that does allow not allow him to see the benefit of these Clubs collaborating and organizing fun events that attract kids. Like I said they have an advantage over schools only because they are NOT ham strung by beauracracy and regulation.
Schools do have an advantage in that they have captive audience and yet cannot always get kids in the room. Why is that? Yet a business who charges to come can fill the rooms and they do not have said captive audience. So it stands to reason they are doing something right or they could not afford to keep the doors open."
Nowhere did Handles say anything about or indicate he thought bureaucracy and government could or could not improve something (I realize you are quite paranoid about such things and ignore evidence that runs contrary to your fears).
Wrestling clubs raise the level and quality od wrestling overall but do little to bring in new blood compared to school wrestling. I do agree that likely it drives some kids out as they are not willing to do what it taks ot get to that level and that's ok. This is happening in pther sports too, believe me my kids were serious participants in sports and I watched other kids fall off through the years. This is why you see kids open enrolling and wrestling getting concentrated in fewer and fewer schools (the best wrestlers). I am not making a judgement here, just pointing out what is happening. This is the normal evolution of such things.
Now as far as your last paragraph, the clubs draw from wide areas to "fill the room". A school will have less numbers to draw from even in the largest schools, especially considering all the options and draws kids have. You are comparing apples to oranges here.
Quote from: Handles II on December 19, 2016, 01:12:56 PM
Please Ramjet, show us the numbers of kids who have joined their HS team strictly because they were recruited by a private team to begin the sport of wrestling. List names and schools. I've never once said it hasn't happened, but I will say that it doesn't happen for the majority of wrestlers and/or teams. They simply aren't helping fill our weight classes beyond a couple handfuls of kids state-wide. And while I appreciate any additions to what we have, I'm not going to pretend like some on here that private clubs are the key to filling 14 weights. There are also plenty of witnesses saying that for one kid who joins HS wrestling because of a private club, another one or more quits the sport.
We have getyourpoints saying in one post that wrestling takes too much time and effort, too many weekends, so kids quit, and in another saying that kids should join private clubs to work harder and put in more time and weekends so they won't quit. ???
I'm collecting and showing data on the number of wrestlers entered in tournaments. If you want to argue that data, fine, but please start a new thread on your topic and show the data as well.
Who is loosing the wrestlers or having a hard time filling the weights? School teams. Yes even with open enrollment and with a concentrated group of kids to recruit from. An audience that is in the coaches midst for many hours in the day. My point is simple here, it's the program's and the lack of collaboration between teams Coaches schools etc.
One thing you will see is private clubs and organization working together for a common goal. The competition and desire for ultimate success drives division between school programs, coaches and conferences. I see the Clubs and private clubs with higher goal (business fundamentals) and that is to build thier customer base and in that quest they build the quality of wrestling. That drives them to be creative and to be goal driven and use the methodology that defines success in business models. Some of that methodology is collaboration through fun competition but ultimately working together to grow together. Good for wrestling good for the kids and good for the Clubs. Parents are drawn to this because they want their children to succeed. So they seek out what they consider to be the best way to reach that goal. Many of the kids who see success grow and continue on that path. For many kids it is defined by the expereince and the fun they can have being part of winning program. Being around an atmosphere of success and pride being identified with a group of other kids who are committed to the same goals. It's fun they like that positive feedback and hard work ensure advancement. Winning formula so as much as you may despise the idea of Wrestling as a business it has improved wrestling and you can learn from it. Schools provide excellent conduit for the same formulas but the sport is passing many of the programs by because they stick to the good olds days.
I know this tick off some folks but this is reality. Want to change wrestling want to make it better? Then look in the mirror because that guy/gal you see has the most influence to do so.
As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.
Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.
Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. :) More wrestling = better wrestling, all three styles.
Quote from: MNbadger on December 19, 2016, 06:58:57 PM
Ramjet, "Private Clubs do allot to promote this sport and to bring new wrestlers to it. I laugh when HandlesII gets on this kick because he feels that only beauracracy and Government can improve something. It is his philosophical stubbornness that does allow not allow him to see the benefit of these Clubs collaborating and organizing fun events that attract kids. Like I said they have an advantage over schools only because they are NOT ham strung by beauracracy and regulation.
Schools do have an advantage in that they have captive audience and yet cannot always get kids in the room. Why is that? Yet a business who charges to come can fill the rooms and they do not have said captive audience. So it stands to reason they are doing something right or they could not afford to keep the doors open."
Nowhere did Handles say anything about or indicate he thought bureaucracy and government could or could not improve something (I realize you are quite paranoid about such things and ignore evidence that runs contrary to your fears).
Wrestling clubs raise the level and quality od wrestling overall but do little to bring in new blood compared to school wrestling. I do agree that likely it drives some kids out as they are not willing to do what it taks ot get to that level and that's ok. This is happening in pther sports too, believe me my kids were serious participants in sports and I watched other kids fall off through the years. This is why you see kids open enrolling and wrestling getting concentrated in fewer and fewer schools (the best wrestlers). I am not making a judgement here, just pointing out what is happening. This is the normal evolution of such things.
Now as far as your last paragraph, the clubs draw from wide areas to "fill the room". A school will have less numbers to draw from even in the largest schools, especially considering all the options and draws kids have. You are comparing apples to oranges here.
BS rhetoric MNbadger especially your last sentence. My goodness even in a very small school you have kids willing to sit on the bench in BB or not participate in any sports the bodies are there. The participation is not I see many programs in schools doing there own thing not working together even within the Conference they are in they would rather take several FF to win dual instead of wrestle the matches they could. So please save your baloney for someone that does not really pay attention. ::)
You give me 10 kids who never wrestled and put them in private club and the retention will higher than if those same kids only wrestle in the school. Why? Success more attention to the sport and detail. Kids who do club or get private lessons improve quicker and endure longer in the sport. Hard to argue with success.
Quote from: bigG on December 19, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.
Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.
Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. :) More wrestling = better wrestling, all three styles.
You are not getting it here G. My point is simple work with these clubs get the best of both worlds take the best ideas and start working together. Division is why this sport is fading working together for common goal is a formula for success. Cutting the weight classes is not a solution it is just band aide for a serious wound slows it down but it will do nothing to stop the bleeding.
You missed the point again Ramjet. The kids in club sports are already more highly motivated THAT IS WHY THEY ARE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Just how are you going to force those newbies to go to your club? If I get those ten kids to show up and do so regulalrly, they will become quality, winning wrestlers as well in school wrestling.
I teach in a huge school system. We struggle for numbers in sports other than wrestling as well. A couple of the sports that are doing quite well right now are going to struggle for numbers within the next two or three years and the drop will be drastic, believe me (like from section final quality ot not a conference win). Wrestling is in the process of recovery after dropping middle school sports some years ago. They are back now but it takes time.
We have plenty of quality basketballers that quit due to the fact that they are NOT willing to ride the pine or even be the sixth man.
Many of our female athletes quit if they are not on varsity, especially juniors and seniors.
As far as my last sentence it is very apt. Please explain to us your disagreement there with my point. Do you not see how a club draws from a largr pool of individuals, seriously?
Not doubting anyone on here one bit.
I will say in my narrow mind that usually I see the private clubs getting kids from the schools clubs or teams when that child or parent deems it is the right time for that kid to get some extra wrestling in.
I see clubs as a huge benifit for schools, I really do!!!!!!!! The kids improve and what they take back to the wrestling room for their schools can help all!!!! Also it may help the private clubs when schools see kids take huge jumps and maybe more on the school team want to get better like the private club kids.
I guess what I am saying is I havent yet heard of a private club recruiting a kid that never wrestled, starting them from scratch and then at some point they join a school team. I havent heard of that just yet though I am not saying it hasnt happened somewhere down the line.
I have heard of private clubs directing wrestlers to certain schools though. I am sure that makes one school better and increases their numbers but the school that wrestler left, is down then in numbers.
Not saying any of Wisconsin great private school have done this, just saying I have heard at least once in my life time.
Quote from: ramjet on December 19, 2016, 07:31:59 PM
Quote from: bigG on December 19, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.
Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.
Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. :) More wrestling = better wrestling, all three styles.
You are not getting it here G. My point is simple work with these clubs get the best of both worlds take the best ideas and start working together. Division is why this sport is fading working together for common goal is a formula for success. Cutting the weight classes is not a solution it is just band aide for a serious wound slows it down but it will do nothing to stop the bleeding.
I like BigG thinking here. We also have to look at the point as WE are giving kids chances to get on the mat, on the field, on the court and lets not get ahead of our selfs with all this thinking.
Also, Ram, while I do think that many of the clubs DO work together and DO help the state of wrestling out alot. I cannt name a club that isnt helping the sport out in Wisconsin.
The problem that some overlook and with K.N.O.W. is addressing is the kids that ARE NOT in clubs that could have the chance to get some extra training, whether it is clubs or having some camps/clinics.
I am sure it varies in areas but I doubt less than half of the kids that body fat tested actually have wrestled in a club setting or camp/clinic situation.
The situations I see in wrestling it is becoming the haves and have not. I think in some way wrestling is eating itself from the inside out.
My advice, enjoy wrestling, have fun with it and hopefully at some point in life you give back to the sport!
LG I hope you are well. I know one guy who runs many camps and runs a private for profit club but I have seen him just allow some kids in without paying because he knew they could not. It happens more than they will admit as they cannot advertise it or some may try and take advantage of thier good will.
I agree with everything you said and we should just enjoy wrestling there are some outstanding Holiday Tourneys coming up and it should be fun to watch and this is NOT the time to think about cutting weights.
I really like the idea of this KNOW it sounds like an outstanding effort and I trust if Aaron is part of it they will work hard to help all kids he has allot of passion for that and the kids.
Quote from: ramjet on December 19, 2016, 07:31:59 PM
Quote from: bigG on December 19, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.
Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.
Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. :) More wrestling = better wrestling, all three styles.
You are not getting it here G. My point is simple work with these clubs get the best of both worlds take the best ideas and start working together. Division is why this sport is fading working together for common goal is a formula for success. Cutting the weight classes is not a solution it is just band aide for a serious wound slows it down but it will do nothing to stop the bleeding.
Now get those same ten kids the money, parental commitment, and motivation to commit themselves to one sport through clubs and national tournaments and I'm sold. I get it. But is you think you're idea is the big ticket unifier/solution, you might want to hear others out. What you want is agreement with your paradigm. I agree with the division thing; but aren't you also being divisive at times?
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 19, 2016, 09:26:35 PM
Handles ,
We are in the Fox Valley/ GB area.
My son goes to a school with strong numbers and a solid wrestling tradition. The coach is wise beyond his years, he encourages the commitment kids to get in the privet club. He works with the rest of the kids at a pace that matches there interest and skills inching up the intensity each year. He doesn't coach with a one fits all aproach.
As he says give him a few studs and he will build a bunch of 25-30 match winners around them and we will win state.
Push the ones that are wired to handle it and inspire the rest to be the best they can be.
It seems to be working out great.
That sounds great getpoints, but where in this situation is the private club recruiting brand-new wrestlers, teaching them to wrestle and having them join your HS team? This is the point you have been saying that private clubs do. Personally, I don't see it. Your explanation of the kids that are highly committed to the sport joining a private club to get extra work, while the HS coach, MS coach, and those working in the youth clubs continue to work to find new kids to join the sport and to fill the roster is exactly what I've been saying. Thank you for letting us know how it really works.
Therefore, as you just explained, private clubs aren't really helping bring new kids into the HS teams. They aren't really helping to fill our 14 weight classes. They might in a handful of cases or so, but they are helping kids that are already in the sport get better, but let's be honest, pull 5 committed studs out of 5 area high schools and work with them 3 days per week for 9 months per year, and virtually any of our state's HS coaches could help them improve. Their desire to work and learn, and for most, a natural ability (physical and/or mental) beyond that of their peers, and the willingness for parents to pay for the coaching services is what gives fuel to private clubs of any sport. That isn't at all the point of this thread however. This thread is looking at our HS teams and, at least in these two states (WI/MN), seeing that thus far in the season,
we are filling about 10 weight classes on average per team >:(.
If you and others think that private clubs are the answer to this dilemma, then please, start a thread explaining and showing data on how this is and has been improving our numbers of wrestlers across the state. I'm very eager to learn more, but thus far I'm under the opinion that private clubs are working very much as you explained above (not that there is anything wrong with that). They generally get kids already in the sport, kids that someone else already recruited and put time into teaching the basics (or more). I've asked several times for anyone to show numbers of brand-new recruits, or even examples of those kids that are now filling their HS weight classes that would have never started the sport without being recruited by a private club , but thus far nothing has been mentioned.
This isn't about winning unless the sport is winning, averaging 10 wrestlers isn't winning. So from that view, I agree that private clubs are helping some kids and thus some programs.
Your 7/7 idea wasn't one that you expanded on too much simply because in your next post you quoted Jordan saying kids shouldn't have more than a couple weeks off all year. They conflicted and off we went.
I agree that long weekends take their toll on wrestlers, coaches, and parents. I honestly think that is less of an issue with the HS wrestling season than it is with the many, many, months, and years prior to HS wrestling of being at tournaments on Saturdays and Sundays, in the spring, summer and fall, that should shoulder more of the blame.
However, I agree that maybe there is too much and it becomes a quitting point, or a "I'm not going to wrestle because of conflicts with work, family, other private sports clubs I belong to that demand my time and money...".
I look at college wrestling where 20-30 matches per year is the norm. I look at our past years where 20-30 matches was the norm. Maybe all the pushing for more, more, more has created less?
I'm still in the boat that 14 weights is probably 2 too many, and that our JV would have more action, more guys taking an extra year to learn, and our Varsity would become more competitive, perhaps more exciting, and at least, even for teams with 8-10 guys, looking closer to a "full" team for those Admin that need or want to make budget cuts.
Quote from: bigG on December 20, 2016, 06:13:39 AM
Quote from: ramjet on December 19, 2016, 07:31:59 PM
Quote from: bigG on December 19, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.
Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.
Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. :) More wrestling = better wrestling, all three styles.
You are not getting it here G. My point is simple work with these clubs get the best of both worlds take the best ideas and start working together. Division is why this sport is fading working together for common goal is a formula for success. Cutting the weight classes is not a solution it is just band aide for a serious wound slows it down but it will do nothing to stop the bleeding.
Now get those same ten kids the money, parental commitment, and motivation to commit themselves to one sport through clubs and national tournaments and I'm sold. I get it. But is you think you're idea is the big ticket unifier/solution, you might want to hear others out. What you want is agreement with your paradigm. I agree with the division thing; but aren't you also being divisive at times?
Nope not at all. Multiple sport participation is a must have in small Districts I encourage it. I do not think cutting weight classes will solve anything it's a short term solution for long term problem.
The sport of wrestling is not going to have to worry much about those kids that love the sport, join private clubs, wrestle in the off-season, and grew up going to Saturday tournaments and wrestling 40+ matches as youth wrestlers. Some may burn out but those that make it to a high school room usually stick with it.
But the sport of wrestling desperately needs to hang on to more kids that try the sport for the first time in middle to high school and try to find more of them if they want to try and fill 14 weight classes. Problem is that most of these kids only wrestle during the season and lack experience and are not ready for varsity action anyway as underclassmen. They are not used to the length of the season, the grind, the number of matches, the long Saturdays, wrestling over hunting and holidays, the skin infections scares, focus on weight management, and wrestling 6 days a week. Without these kids the sport of wrestling will suffer and continue to lose teams and wrestlers. These are the kids we need on varsity as juniors and seniors that will fill weight classes and maybe go 25-15 on the season. Coaches and the sport itself almost need to focus more on these kids than the diehards if they want to have a successful full team. Truth is that these kids then make the best and most dedicated wrestlers better because they will have better and more practice partners.
We are almost too focused on the state qualifiers and star youth wrestlers. The fact that so many of these kids become so good so young it almost hurts bringing in new kids because they just get pounded on by these kids when you wrestle them in a dual on varsity
Quote from: ramjet on December 20, 2016, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: bigG on December 20, 2016, 06:13:39 AM
Quote from: ramjet on December 19, 2016, 07:31:59 PM
Quote from: bigG on December 19, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.
Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.
Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. :) More wrestling = better wrestling, all three styles.
You are not getting it here G. My point is simple work with these clubs get the best of both worlds take the best ideas and start working together. Division is why this sport is fading working together for common goal is a formula for success. Cutting the weight classes is not a solution it is just band aide for a serious wound slows it down but it will do nothing to stop the bleeding.
Now get those same ten kids the money, parental commitment, and motivation to commit themselves to one sport through clubs and national tournaments and I'm sold. I get it. But is you think you're idea is the big ticket unifier/solution, you might want to hear others out. What you want is agreement with your paradigm. I agree with the division thing; but aren't you also being divisive at times?
Nope not at all. Multiple sport participation is a must have in small Districts I encourage it. I do not think cutting weight classes will solve anything it's a short term solution for long term problem.
I'm with you. Still it's not debate that creates an atmosphere that hurts the sport. So long as we (prive club and public school) coach like the kids' best interests are what matters, the kids will do well; so will wrestling. Easy to say private is the way to go. But, they promote themselves through their kids' success just like any public school program. Just that schools need to include academics and behavioral expectations as a matter of course. I'm sure most clubs have something in place.
This stuff is nothing new. 10 per team doesn't knock me off kilter. Lots more things to do.
Good ideas. Maybe start a thread, or even a poll and see what others think about it.
We all have to remember however, that with any of our ideas, it isn't up to coaches, or even the coaches association to make decisions (they can make recommendations but don't have much power). It's up to the A.D.'s to really bring changes to the WIAA. Unless the A.D.'s agree and push for it, no changes will come. Head coaches need to communicate strongly with their A.D. to then communicate strongly in the A.D. meetings. All of our discussions are more/less for fun. :P
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 20, 2016, 05:21:33 PM
Handles and others,
As all of you know that have ever read my posts text is not my strength but i will give it a go.
For those that don't know.
7&7 means each school can attend up to 7 dual's and 7 tournaments a season to be compliant with the WIAA. This does not include the WIAA state series including regional, sectionals and state. So in a 12 week span they could wrestle 9 or 10 Saturdays counting team state. Many of those weeks the wrestlers need to weigh in for there Thursday dual maintain on Friday and weigh in again that Saturday for the tournament.
My suggestion is to change the 7&7 rule to a 3-4-3 rule, 3 dual's, 4 quad's or triangles, 3 tournaments. This would be similar to what I am seeing in swim. This would maintain the match counts give or take a few and give the kids, coaches/wives, parents, ref's back most of there weekend during the wrestling season. The triangle or quad would take place Thursdays or Fridays just as dual's are currently done. Teams can still attend out of state tournaments or tournaments like Cheese Head to get there kids exposure if they need it.
With the rule change allowing two unattached events a year, tournaments can be created for the die hard's that need those extra matches. They can travel with there folks or privet club coach to those events.
I am also OK with alternative uniforms and your Thursday weigh ins counting for Saturdays as a change well were at it.
Benefits
1. Guaranteed matches instead of Thursday night forfeits.
2. Packed stands
3. Less travel
4. Cost savings
5. Less time stress on coaches and athletes
6. Line up quads with similar teams (if you have a full roster then line up full teams or if you have a 1/2 roster then line up similar teams)
7. Get your conference matches done in a couple quads if you chose.
8. Shorten the season if you want.
9. Invite media now that there is a better chance of top tear pairings for matches
10. Let kids have the weekends to work, hang, date, or recover.
I truly think this change will keep more kids and coaches out for the sport. Its a hard sport already with out legalistic's making it harder.
Good post and ideas. Certainly worth pondering and perusing.
You can do all that now! Who says 7 & 7 means you have to use 7 Saturdays?
You can do 4 quads now if you want. You can take off between Christmas, you can not participate
On any Saturdays if you want. You can wrestle 14 Duals as your 14 dates. It is entirely up to the coach
as to how we wants to manage his schedule.
I kind of like the idea of changing up schedules but like I saw posted in an article I think you need more duals. Duals are what schools and communities will support. They are different than quads. When you have fewer duals and go to quads it means fewer home events and more travel a lot of times.
Our conference has one night where all 10 teams show up and each team wrestles 2 conference duals. Location rotates. I still like this idea but the negative is that every team gives up one home dual meet.
More duals and less tournaments saves coaches, parents, and wrestlers.
Like was also said I think the new rule allowing two open tournaments can be a catch basin to allow for more matches for the elite wrestlers. Not sure what has to change to make the Holiday tournaments legal to be called open tournaments!
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 21, 2016, 05:57:39 PM
Doc,
It would still get you 4 home events per year just like Football. The quads I have been to seem to have a lot more fans attending. I understand there are even college coaches pushing for this change at that level.
With three duals and 4 multis how are teams going to get 4 events at home. Some might that can convince others to come.
Every dual has a home and away. Every quad has one home team and 3 away teams. No way everyone is going to have 4 home events but like I said it is likely better for the sport as a whole especially if the well supported communities host the quads and make them fun. Don't necessarily have to be quads in a perfect world. Get 4-5 teams and just wrestle round robins. Could declare a winner if you wanted on team points. Would likely go faster that way but lose the true team concept
Quote from: bigG on December 20, 2016, 12:56:42 PM
Quote from: ramjet on December 20, 2016, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: bigG on December 20, 2016, 06:13:39 AM
Quote from: ramjet on December 19, 2016, 07:31:59 PM
Quote from: bigG on December 19, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
As the former coach of a team that'll soon be hurting for numbers, I'm still fine with our state of wrestling. There's opportunity for all. It ebbs and flows. Same opportunity for boring ole HS kid who is still good at other sports? You bet. Still room for those who hope to excel in one sport? Yes. We might be in our best days. Yes, the old school doesn't get the numbers we had; but competition in kid-time is at an all-time high. Hunting, friends, church(not just on Sunday), music, etc. takes time just like videogames. Some are just more constructive. Wrestling, whether by a super-dedicated athlete, or part-time football player, is great. I just want those who do it to have that experience of getting grubbed and giving a grubbin'. You can't not get better as a person. Wrestlers get that; no matter how many or few on a given team. I've gotten kids who were LAW trained. Good kids. Others from our local club...good wrestlers. Let 'em wrestle for their schools and show their toughness. If they can all contribute, you got a team. Show them that, with hard work, you get opportunity.
Change the weights and how we weigh (matside might work, I dunno); but let's try to create a culture in our wrestling room of folks who represent. Love my kids; but there'll be more. I think my 2016-17 team has the best people I know on it; win or lose. I don't even coach them; and I love them to death. Great people is all we need to focus on and cultivate a group that watches each others' backs.
Think I'm gonna tell Askren to quit coaching kids privately? Heck no. Am I gonna tell my admin. that wrestling is best in the private world? No way. I like the current balance and think it will lead to growth. Concussions sure don't help. But, such is the way. Askren was coached by a school coach; and Ben can coach any kid of mine, with glee. :) More wrestling = better wrestling, all three styles.
You are not getting it here G. My point is simple work with these clubs get the best of both worlds take the best ideas and start working together. Division is why this sport is fading working together for common goal is a formula for success. Cutting the weight classes is not a solution it is just band aide for a serious wound slows it down but it will do nothing to stop the bleeding.
Now get those same ten kids the money, parental commitment, and motivation to commit themselves to one sport through clubs and national tournaments and I'm sold. I get it. But is you think you're idea is the big ticket unifier/solution, you might want to hear others out. What you want is agreement with your paradigm. I agree with the division thing; but aren't you also being divisive at times?
Nope not at all. Multiple sport participation is a must have in small Districts I encourage it. I do not think cutting weight classes will solve anything it's a short term solution for long term problem.
I'm with you. Still it's not debate that creates an atmosphere that hurts the sport. So long as we (prive club and public school) coach like the kids' best interests are what matters, the kids will do well; so will wrestling. Easy to say private is the way to go. But, they promote themselves through their kids' success just like any public school program. Just that schools need to include academics and behavioral expectations as a matter of course. I'm sure most clubs have something in place.
This stuff is nothing new. 10 per team doesn't knock me off kilter. Lots more things to do.
G I absolutely agree with that last sentence; Expectations, kids will live UP TO or DOWN TO expectations. Acedemics is the reason they are in school, period end of story the rest is the cream. A good learning enviroment is organized and orderly.
Quote from: DocWrestling on December 21, 2016, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 21, 2016, 05:57:39 PM
Doc,
It would still get you 4 home events per year just like Football. The quads I have been to seem to have a lot more fans attending. I understand there are even college coaches pushing for this change at that level.
With three duals and 4 multis how are teams going to get 4 events at home. Some might that can convince others to come.
Every dual has a home and away. Every quad has one home team and 3 away teams. No way everyone is going to have 4 home events but like I said it is likely better for the sport as a whole especially if the well supported communities host the quads and make them fun. Don't necessarily have to be quads in a perfect world. Get 4-5 teams and just wrestle round robins. Could declare a winner if you wanted on team points. Would likely go faster that way but lose the true team concept
Doc open your mind up some you think only along the lines of D1 or D2. D3 dual stink low numbers long travel make for terrible competition and few matches and high numbers FF. The idea of choices is better for most D3 programs tournamanet a gets the wrestlers high level competition and matches they need to hone their skills.
Some coaches are adjusting their schedules. I know our coaches decided to only do 6 events this year to free up a weekend for everyone. I would love to see them pick up another weeknight tourney, dual, or quad to free up another weekend. Just think is makes everyone happier and only limits the kids from a couple matches that are not going to make or break them when it comes to regionals. Lets be healthy and fresh and regionals time!
Even with the canceled tournaments this past weekend, you have to admit that there were many wrestlers, families, and coaches that were excited to have an unexpected weekend off. Only us diehard wrestling fans that lurk on a wrestling forum crave more and more wrestling
All good points.
I believe it is a combo of weight cutting, weekends, not eating, hard practices, time involvement for parents, getting throttled on in practice and no hope of seeing varsity, knowing there is a better kid out there and the energy just isnt there.
I cannt pin point 1 thing but I would venture to say there are alot of things go into why the numbers are down and so on.
Personally I believe in a match count instead of a 7 and 7 or what ever. Go ahead as a team and schedule more than the match count and then your forced to use some of the JV and such and get them experience. They you can rest the starter and maybe look for the "quality" match up or what ever. With the lack (but now growing) JV tournaments it would be a good way as to look at another teams lineups and maybe get some kids in.
I do believe that in doing this, a good scheduling of quads maybe in order. Dual meet settings is a much better way of monitoring the match count over tournaments.
No by any means this would work for all, just some ideas off the littleguys bald head ;D
I think you are right! I would just put a match limit. I would say maybe no wrestler can have more than 30 matches prior to regionals. This would not count hopefully new open tournaments that might sprout up. For the real serious that want more mat time they would be better served by attending an open tournament put on by one of the private clubs or even just attending open mats, etc at private clubs. They would likely get a ton of great mat time with great practice partners or matches that benefit them much more than another school tournament or dual. In two hours they could get a lot more out of it than an 8 hour tourney where they might only get two full length matches.
Just a way to balance the seasonal wrestlers with the die-hard year round wrestlers or just those with loftier goals.
Do you think the bi-state or OTW tourneys could continue with their success as open tournaments? Kid and parents pay their own way. Maybe instead of one huge 50-man bracket it evolves into a 16 man gold division bracket/scramble, a silver division, and bronze division. Each wrestler gets 5 matches against similar abilities. Could be a true grinder like Cheesehead that would draw in the best wrestlers?
Rest of wrestlers get holidays off with some fun team practices?
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 22, 2016, 02:52:48 PM
Doc,
The rule is that the tournament can not be attached to a school, on the water is ran by the U of O correct? If so it should work.
Who has the Bi State?
I think Osh Lourdes runs OTW and Holmen runs Bistate
Quote from: getyourpoints on December 22, 2016, 02:52:48 PM
Doc,
The rule is that the tournament can not be attached to a school, on the water is ran by the U of O correct? If so it should work.
Who has the Bi State?
Holmen runs Bi-state. I wonder if there is a way around that to raise them money but be an open tourney?
OTW is sponsored by Oshkosh Lourdes I think and not university so something would likely have to change there?
I think these open tourney ideas need to be explored by someone. probably private clubs first?
Sorry people, I just cannt let this topic go about the numbers in wrestling.
Northern Badger,,,,,which is an outstanding run tournament to say the least. Big thanks to the River Falls backers and Mr Dave Black for this tournament and all that put in their time for me to enjoy an awesome sport!
OK,,,,41 teams entered in the tournament. Not a single 1 had 14 guys on their respective rosters. Over all 389 wrestlers on 41 teams which comes out to 9.4 kids per team. So basically the average team at the northern badger this years was missing over 25% of their potential line up.
On a lighter note, I certainly enjoyed watching every match I could take in, respected every kid whether win or lose. Hey it is high school sports and enjoy while you can because some day you may not be able to enjoy it.
7737 kids have body fat tested so far this season. 300 less than last year. Only one per team less. Since 2011-12, we've fat tested 1200 less. About 4 per team.
Maybe we have too many rules (including body fat testing ) that discourage getting kids out..........
Quote from: Ghetto on December 30, 2016, 02:18:21 PM
7737 kids have body fat tested so far this season. 300 less than last year. Only one per team less. Since 2011-12, we've fat tested 1200 less. About 4 per team.
How much has enrollment dropped in that same time period?
No clue. Let me know if you find out.
Quote from: Ghetto on December 30, 2016, 07:53:22 PM
No clue. Let me know if you find out.
If you want your stats to be valid, knowing what the actual decling enrollment numbers would be important.
LG (and others)...
"OK,,,,41 teams entered in the tournament. Not a single 1 had 14 guys on their respective rosters. Over all 389 wrestlers on 41 teams which comes out to 9.4 kids per team. So basically the average team at the northern badger this years was missing over 25% of their potential line up."
I say this...... so what? A great, competitive tournament, correct? More weights is more opportunities, period. Less chance for an individual to get stuck being a "tweener".
This issue only matters if you are stuck on duals.
Are you happy about the Olympic weights getting cut to 8?
If we give up our obssession with duals things are fine. We used to compete in a Friday night, eight team, individual tournament... it was great. The Northern Badger was great, and so to are the other tournies OTW, Mid State, Bi-state, etc. For none of these is havinfg 9.4 kids per team a problem.
I truly believe that if we eliminated duals we would lose a ton more kids. There are a ton of kids that wrestle in these big tourneys that maybe win one match or maybe 2 matches. These kids are not going to stay out for wrestling if not for duals where they can contribute to the team. You would lose all the .500 and below wrestlers I think.
These big tourneys started at 8am on Thursday and finished Friday evening. Many were done wrestling by 4pm on Thursday and yet they had to be there for all of Thursday and Friday?
It would snowball. Lose all the .500 and below kids. Then kids that won 60% of their matches are now the kids with losing records and they may quit.
Individual tournaments are built for the top 25% of kids. They are the ones that place. Wrestling numbers will drop dramatically if we only cater to the top 25%.
In the end we need duals because they give kids multiple ways to win and contribute to the team.
Idea- If these holiday tournaments could be opens or even as they are now, they should create gold divisions and silver divisions. Take the top 16 kids and put them in a gold division-maybe a scramble format. Put the rest in a silver division with 32-man bracket. A system that would cater to all wrestlers. Otherwise we just need to do a better job with JV's being the silver division. I know at our Marty Loy many coaches drop "varsity" wrestlers into the JV division to get them more quality matches.
I have been a passive lurker on this thread, and admit I haven't read every post. But since this thread is on its way to setting a record for the number of pages it includes, I'm jumping in to artificially become a part of the history. Therefore, I apologize if my comments are slightly off track.
MN Badger, the Olympic weights have been cut to 6, so it is even worse. Too many tweeners that are very good that don't get their shot, or are just not the best size for their weight class.
With regards to reducing the number of weight classes, I'm a believer in more opportunities for consistent participation. Forfeits are certainly annoying and they can be frustrating. However, trying to make duals more entertaining by eliminating the potential for forfeits through cutting weight classes won't get more kids participating.
Cutting weight classes may only cause a log jam at some weights, and the result is an extra JV wrestler, instead of having more kids getting to participate in the line up.
I'm all for duals and tournaments (and without reducing weight classes). I'm also making this statement without regards to my own kids. I will feel this way next year and beyond. With that said, tournaments do not cater to the top 25%. Yes, only a few may place, but every kid can get something out of it, or enjoy themselves even with setbacks. Some of those things cab also be important lessons learned for their adult life. Tournaments aren't for the top 25%. They are there for all kids. If a kid does not place, he still got at least two matches. A kid could also get beat in every dual as well. How is one scenario worse, or more likely to cause him/her to quit? A string of matches in duals where a kid gets beat may be much worse because of the pressure of all eyes being on you. For instance, at OTW, there may be less pressure because there are 10 mats going and you aren't under the spotlight etc. The arguments can go either way.
"I also think if you wrestle on a Thursday and are weighed in by a ref that the weight should count for a Saturday tournament provided its in state with no out of state teams participating in the tournament. Let the kids rest, recover and relax on Friday, if they all do it things stay fair and equal. If we were to start allowing one weigh in a week, weekend tournaments can be seated the night before allowing the tournament to start earlier and finish earlier. "
I don't like this idea at all. Weigh in on Thursday and that counts for Saturday? Some poor kid will end up being outweighed by 12 lbs etc. Weight cutting should not become easier for the kid that drops a lot of weight. That won't help in trying to reduce that issue within our sport.
I am a firm believer in less is more. I think there is a sweet spot for the number of weig-ins and matches for a season. Unfortunately it varies for every kid. However, reducing the number of weigh-ins and competitions may be a good thing. I do think 50+ matches in a season and the number of required weigh-ins that go with them is too many. That grind can do more to take the fun out of the sport (not to mention, wear a kid down physically, and mentally) for many. I don't know the answers, but there is a range where kids get the consistency of competition, but not too much to where they are at risk for wearing out. Rest and relaxation is also good to keep enthusiasm up.
It ultimately comes down to us finding a way to promote, market and encourage to get a sustained increase in numbers.
Quote from: bman on December 31, 2016, 03:04:17 PM
I have been a passive lurker on this thread, and admit I haven't read every post. But since this thread is on its way to setting a record for the number of pages it includes, I'm jumping in to artificially become a part of the history. Therefore, I apologize if my comments are slightly off track.
MN Badger, the Olympic weights have been cut to 6, so it is even worse. Too many tweeners that are very good that don't get their shot, or are just not the best size for their weight class.
With regards to reducing the number of weight classes, I'm a believer in more opportunities for consistent participation. Forfeits are certainly annoying and they can be frustrating. However, trying to make duals more entertaining by eliminating the potential for forfeits through cutting weight classes won't get more kids participating.
Cutting weight classes may only cause a log jam at some weights, and the result is an extra JV wrestler, instead of having more kids getting to participate in the line up.
I'm all for duals and tournaments (and without reducing weight classes). I'm also making this statement without regards to my own kids. I will feel this way next year and beyond. With that said, tournaments do not cater to the top 25%. Yes, only a few may place, but every kid can get something out of it, or enjoy themselves even with setbacks. Some of those things cab also be important lessons learned for their adult life. Tournaments aren't for the top 25%. They are there for all kids. If a kid does not place, he still got at least two matches. A kid could also get beat in every dual as well. How is one scenario worse, or more likely to cause him/her to quit? A string of matches in duals where a kid gets beat may be much worse because of the pressure of all eyes being on you. For instance, at OTW, there may be less pressure because there are 10 mats going and you aren't under the spotlight etc. The arguments can go either way.
"I also think if you wrestle on a Thursday and are weighed in by a ref that the weight should count for a Saturday tournament provided its in state with no out of state teams participating in the tournament. Let the kids rest, recover and relax on Friday, if they all do it things stay fair and equal. If we were to start allowing one weigh in a week, weekend tournaments can be seated the night before allowing the tournament to start earlier and finish earlier. "
I don't like this idea at all. Weigh in on Thursday and that counts for Saturday? Some poor kid will end up being outweighed by 12 lbs etc. Weight cutting should not become easier for the kid that drops a lot of weight. That won't help in trying to reduce that issue within our sport.
I am a firm believer in less is more. I think there is a sweet spot for the number of weig-ins and matches for a season. Unfortunately it varies for every kid. However, reducing the number of weigh-ins and competitions may be a good thing. I do think 50+ matches in a season and the number of required weigh-ins that go with them is too many. That grind can do more to take the fun out of the sport (not to mention, wear a kid down physically, and mentally) for many. I don't know the answers, but there is a range where kids get the consistency of competition, but not too much to where they are at risk for wearing out. Rest and relaxation is also good to keep enthusiasm up.
It ultimately comes down to us finding a way to promote, market and encourage to get a sustained increase in numbers.
Best post of the year! I agree 100%. Well thought out and said.
Sorry Aarons, In my mind I was typing "going from 8 to 6".
I believe many of you that are focused on dual vs indy meets, or the number of weight classes under the guise of "opportunities" are ignoring the biggest picture, which should be maintaining this sport in all our high schools without co-ops and cuts if possible. That has to be our #1 focus. We have to think as administrators who, year upon year are seeing decreased budgets and forced to make changes.
You have two teams, each has 18 athletes from 9-12. One sport is able to fill and compete at the freshman, JV, and Varsity level. The other only able to partially fill a varsity and a JV team.
One sport has 8 home events for each level of it's sport. The other has 4 home events total. They can't win because they forfeit too many weights.
Which is going to be easier to cut or turn into a co-op (which reduces opportunities for each co-op school)? We MUST look at the sport from that angle and do what is needed to help keep this sport alive in the schools and areas of the state that are struggling. We all know of the small-town or big-city stories, where wrestling literally changed the lives of kids who simply couldn't fit into or didn't belong in other extracurriculars. We can't say to ourselves, "Well, as long as we have some teams able to fill 14 weights, that's fine, let's keep it that way". The perception from the public and admin about our sport is critical, and if it's worth keeping around is what we need to focus on. Having a much more practical and realistic number of weights for at least 90% (or more) of our schools to fill, and increase the ability to be viable and competitive is paramount.
Having more kids on JV isn't reducing opportunities. If so, then some of our top schools are guilty of "reducing opportunities" because they are 3-4 deep at many weights. Too many kids on a team would then reduce opportunities for other kids. Right? The idea that everyone should be a varsity wrestler and we have 3 kids on JV is ludicrous.
At our Olympic level, the weights have been cut to 6, it isn't because the countries involved can only fill 6 weights, There are much deeper politics involved. Therefore using it as an example is not an equal comparison.
Quote from: Handles II on January 01, 2017, 09:12:09 AM
I believe many of you that are focused on dual vs indy meets, or the number of weight classes under the guise of "opportunities" are ignoring the biggest picture, which should be maintaining this sport in all our high schools without co-ops and cuts if possible. That has to be our #1 focus. We have to think as administrators who, year upon year are seeing decreased budgets and forced to make changes.
You have two teams, each has 18 athletes from 9-12. One sport is able to fill and compete at the freshman, JV, and Varsity level. The other only able to partially fill a varsity and a JV team.
One sport has 8 home events for each level of it's sport. The other has 4 home events total. They can't win because they forfeit too many weights.
Which is going to be easier to cut or turn into a co-op (which reduces opportunities for each co-op school)? We MUST look at the sport from that angle and do what is needed to help keep this sport alive in the schools and areas of the state that are struggling. We all know of the small-town or big-city stories, where wrestling literally changed the lives of kids who simply couldn't fit into or didn't belong in other extracurriculars. We can't say to ourselves, "Well, as long as we have some teams able to fill 14 weights, that's fine, let's keep it that way". The perception from the public and admin about our sport is critical, and if it's worth keeping around is what we need to focus on. Having a much more practical and realistic number of weights for at least 90% (or more) of our schools to fill, and increase the ability to be viable and competitive is paramount.
Having more kids on JV isn't reducing opportunities. If so, then some of our top schools are guilty of "reducing opportunities" because they are 3-4 deep at many weights. Too many kids on a team would then reduce opportunities for other kids. Right? The idea that everyone should be a varsity wrestler and we have 3 kids on JV is ludicrous.
At our Olympic level, the weights have been cut to 6, it isn't because the countries involved can only fill 6 weights, There are much deeper politics involved. Therefore using it as an example is not an equal comparison.
Bottom line....cutting weight classes does not increase participation.....but it very likely will increase the likely hood that an average wrestler will give up the sport because they see the writing on the wall and will reduce the number of late bloomers we get out to try the sport out. Cutting weight classes is a terrible idea and would only make the strong teams stronger making it more likely for us to loose more programs.
Handles, If you have 18 kids out for wrestling every year, it is not likely to be cut. You are serving 18 kids , just like BB, VB, etc.(that is what ADs look at) Winning or losing duals has nothing to do with it.
My point with Olympic wrestling/weights was not to compare the way you indicated but to show cutting weights is negative.
I agree more with Handles here.
Our focus should be on saving programs. We keep talking about wrestlers but we are losing programs. Those are truly opportunities lost. We may be losing wrestlers to lower enrollment numbers but I know that we are definitely losing wrestlers with lost programs and those will not increase if and when enrollment numbers go up.
Losing programs snowballs. it affects conferences which then makes it easier and easier for administrators to cut teams or makes it more difficult and expensive for the programs left fighting.
We obviously know and understand the struggles of rural communities and honestly it amazes me that so many still have programs so that is kudos to those coaches and administrators. But lets not forget about larger communities. Just last year Whitnall/Greendale combined and we lost a team. Green Bay went from 4 to 2 teams in 1989. Those teams have never came back. Appleton East and Appleton West each have a team now but combined they could not fill a lineup. Point is that we will continue to lose programs in metro areas because it is even easier for them to co-op because the schools are closer together than the rural schools. Just this year we got this co-op and now they are D1- Cambria-Friesland/Fall River/Pardeeville/Randolph/Rio. That is a lot of lost programs and opportunities. That is almost an entire conference joining together for one team. Go to WIAA wrestling page and look at regional assignments and look at all the co-ops. Each of those is a lost program over the years.
Lets not forget about the coaches either. They feel extreme pressure to fill all the weight classes and it affects the way they coach and how they enjoy the sport. The coaches survey revealed overwhelmingly that they wanted to reduce weight classes. Do they coach to truly push kids to be the best or do they back off and make it easy and fun just to keep kids from quitting. If you talk to the coaches they struggle with this.
To be entirely honest, I don't think dropping to 13 weight classes would have saved many of those programs. That is why I do think something drastic like going to 10 weight classes for duals would help greatly and then use 14 for individual tournaments. We maybe should even go to something like the midlands and let teams enter multiple wrestlers in same weight class in individual tournaments.
Truth is we will likely lose a couple more teams after this year.
We simply don't know if having less weights will increase participation or not. We haven't tried it. We have added weights, and have less participation. That's a fact. Whether or not the two things are correlated or not is ip for debate.
Quote from: MNbadger on December 31, 2016, 01:06:19 PM
LG (and others)...
"OK,,,,41 teams entered in the tournament. Not a single 1 had 14 guys on their respective rosters. Over all 389 wrestlers on 41 teams which comes out to 9.4 kids per team. So basically the average team at the northern badger this years was missing over 25% of their potential line up."
I say this...... so what? A great, competitive tournament, correct? More weights is more opportunities, period. Less chance for an individual to get stuck being a "tweener".
This issue only matters if you are stuck on duals.
Are you happy about the Olympic weights getting cut to 8?
If we give up our obssession with duals things are fine. We used to compete in a Friday night, eight team, individual tournament... it was great. The Northern Badger was great, and so to are the other tournies OTW, Mid State, Bi-state, etc. For none of these is havinfg 9.4 kids per team a problem.
MNbadger,,,,,,please use my entire post if your going to post it.
personally, I love duals. I think going to a dual or even a quad event is much more exciting than being at tournaments all day. I like tournaments dont get me wrong but the fan support at duals seems at least to me is much more loud, personal and exciting.
Questions, isnt watching the finals of state like watching a dual. They introduce the weights 1 by one?
Quote from: aarons23 on December 30, 2016, 05:02:16 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on December 30, 2016, 02:18:21 PM
7737 kids have body fat tested so far this season. 300 less than last year. Only one per team less. Since 2011-12, we've fat tested 1200 less. About 4 per team.
How much has enrollment dropped in that same time period?
just a quick look into wisconsin high school school enrollment, it has gone up so losing 1 kid per team is greater if the school is gaining more and more students.
disclaimer: when I looked they had private, public and voucher and I couldnt with any certainy make out which one was increase by the most. it wasnt a very good one but if the state populations has risen I would thing the school age kids will also.
Quote from: MNbadger on January 01, 2017, 09:24:54 AM
Handles, If you have 18 kids out for wrestling every year, it is not likely to be cut. You are serving 18 kids , just like BB, VB, etc.(that is what ADs look at) Winning or losing duals has nothing to do with it.
My point with Olympic wrestling/weights was not to compare the way you indicated but to show cutting weights is negative.
I beg to differ on that. with all the school cuts, 18 kids is basically a classroom in some schools and yes classes are being cut so why wouldnt they cut wrestling.
middle school wrestling teams at least in my area are being cut or really down sized so what do you think is next?
Quote from: MNbadger on December 31, 2016, 01:06:19 PM
LG (and others)...
"OK,,,,41 teams entered in the tournament. Not a single 1 had 14 guys on their respective rosters. Over all 389 wrestlers on 41 teams which comes out to 9.4 kids per team. So basically the average team at the northern badger this years was missing over 25% of their potential line up."
I say this...... so what? A great, competitive tournament, correct? More weights is more opportunities, period. Less chance for an individual to get stuck being a "tweener".
This issue only matters if you are stuck on duals.
Are you happy about the Olympic weights getting cut to 8?
If we give up our obssession with duals things are fine. We used to compete in a Friday night, eight team, individual tournament... it was great. The Northern Badger was great, and so to are the other tournies OTW, Mid State, Bi-state, etc. For none of these is havinfg 9.4 kids per team a problem.
well I wouldnt compare the olympics to high school wrestling looking at cutting. Like some one said it is a very political situation with the olympics and I doubt the money and the politics are as great in high school.
LG, If you read myreply to handles, I addressed the Olympic issue. As I stated I realize there are different causes but we still dislike fewer weight classes no matter the reason.
I was also repling and agree that it is a political situation.
While I love wrestling, going to tournaments. I totally understand the idea of not cutting weight classes and giving all the oppurtunities to all kids to compete, seriously I do.
the problem I see that in another decade we have alot less programs. I also see more and more super programs meaning alot of transfers and such and the programs they leave will weaken and the programs they go to will be stronge.
I am not at this point looking to transfer or open enroll. Maybe down the road it could be an option but I believe in supporting and commenting to your districts program no matter how good or how bad.
personally I do see wrestling becoming almost a club sport in due time.
These things are happening in all sports (the concentration of talent in fewer and fewer schools). I do not think this has anything to do with how many weights we have or if duals have fewer forfeits. This is an outgrowth of open enrollment, a more mobile society, and the economy.
When I was young there were many dairy farmers (most of my class mates and their families) with 40-60 head making a living and raising families. As time went on several farms became one, then five farms became one, etc.
Yes, I do agree that eventually most if not all sports will leave our schools and be club sports (the European model).
i do not see how duals with forfeits diminishes the lessons that wrestling teaches nor the value of being in wrestling. If it is valued it is going to survive. If it is not valued it won't the same as education overall.
I think..
I do not think..
I'm not picking on you MNBadger, but we are dealing in opinions. When you look at the numbers, less and less kids are wrestling. That's fact.
We are going to 9 man football where it's hard to fill teams. At the same time, we don't want to change our sport, which is far less popular.
Forget "thinking"
I just went through the NFHS numbers and picked some random years...........I did not take the time to "cherry pick" any numbers, just wanted to zip through it.
Generally wrestling has been #5-8 in popularity for boy's sports since 1969.
At worst numbers have stayed the same. Really, they have increased overall (statistically not a significant number in recent history to be honest). Additionally, though not big numbers these don't include girls at all.
year # of schools # of participants
'69-'70 6,870 226,681
'91-'92 8,392 229,908
'03-'04 9,526 238,700
'04-'05 9,562 243,009
'06-'07 9,445 257,246
'09-'10 10,363 272,890
'12-'13 10,488 270,163
'13-'14 10,668 269,514
I had years coaching where we were actually three deep at each weight and I was wishing we could run at least two varsity teams. I also suffered a year where we forfeited four weights (tough to win a dual but I did not care, we emphasized tournaments). Actually I prefer tournaments even when we were a strong dual team. Wrestling at it's heart is an individual endeavor.
As far as cutting programs, if you consistently have 16 or more kids out (similar to BB, VB, etc.) and you are giving the kids a good experience, ADs will love you and your program. Remember, in any sport, half the teams lose, this is not the primary reason for providing sports.
That growth is in non-traditional wrestling states nationally. In some states that never really had wrestling the sports participation is growing because it started with basically zero. In the Midwest where wrestling has always existed each state is losing numbers of wrestlers each year. That was posted with the numbers earlier this year.
National numbers are not going to help the lost numbers in WI, MN, IL, IA, etc.
You can see by those national numbers though that the participation numbers are up and there are more teams but fewer wrestlers per team average.
2013/2014-----25.2 wrestlers per team
1969/1970-----33 wrestlers per team
You can run two varsity teams for tournaments. That is what many of the successful schools do with sending a varsity reserve to varsity tournaments.
Yes, but it counts as two dates for us. At least it did when I was coaching.
Your point makes mine about participation.... It is up in some communities and down in others inside MN or WI or IA, etc. This has always been the case and what I was pointing out about my personal experience coaching (and others on this thread).
And regardless, MORE kids are wrestling, not fewer.
You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed. Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will). So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.
So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?
aarons, wE agree in regard to contraction but one has to be careful about claiming people are not "working hard enough" or "smart enough". I coached in a large high school (presently 2100 + and we were actually bigger at one point). As I stated, we had big numbers and small numbers at different times. I can tell you when numbers were down, it was not from my/our lack of effort. We have always done the right things and emulated successful programs. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Heck, for 4 years we had a youth coach who would be hired by any college or country instantly to coach. We had horrible youth numbers. We have several coaches now who are very good coaches, young, kid friendly, etc. We can't get participation, period.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 02, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed. Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will). So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.
So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?
Quote from: MNbadger on January 02, 2017, 08:21:10 PM
aarons, wE agree in regard to contraction but one has to be careful about claiming people are not "working hard enough" or "smart enough". I coached in a large high school (presently 2100 + and we were actually bigger at one point). As I stated, we had big numbers and small numbers at different times. I can tell you when numbers were down, it was not from my/our lack of effort. We have always done the right things and emulated successful programs. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Heck, for 4 years we had a youth coach who would be hired by any college or country instantly to coach. We had horrible youth numbers. We have several coaches now who are very good coaches, young, kid friendly, etc. We can't get participation, period.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 02, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed. Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will). So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.
So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?
Actually...I havent accused anyone of anything. I asked a question. If they are so set on cutting weight classes, I would suspect they could discuss what they tried and why it didnt work. Maybe even get pointers from other schools that are successful.
Aarons, If I sounded like I was accusing you I apologize. I have been through this kind of thing on here before.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 02, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed. Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will). So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.
So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?
alot, thanks for asking. Though probably not enough according to your standards.
aarons, talk to your AD and administration about budget issues once. I would guess your in a growing district but talk to a district that is struggling. The first things AD see is that a full line up is not being put out on the mat. They liken it to playing football with 10 kids, playing basketball with 4 kids and such.
Overall I am for the 14 weight classes but in all honestly some schools just dont have the numbers that school budgets are willing to support.
you can recruit until your blue in the face, you can offer free wrestling and on and on. you can have very good coaches in all levels and sometimes that just isnt enough to build programs.
I guess the easy way is to recruit from other districts or simply open enroll to a school that has a stronge team.
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 02, 2017, 11:52:10 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 02, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed. Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will). So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.
So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?
alot, thanks for asking. Though probably not enough according to your standards.
aarons, talk to your AD and administration about budget issues once. I would guess your in a growing district but talk to a district that is struggling. The first things AD see is that a full line up is not being put out on the mat. They liken it to playing football with 10 kids, playing basketball with 4 kids and such.
Overall I am for the 14 weight classes but in all honestly some schools just dont have the numbers that school budgets are willing to support.
you can recruit until your blue in the face, you can offer free wrestling and on and on. you can have very good coaches in all levels and sometimes that just isnt enough to build programs.
I guess the easy way is to recruit from other districts or simply open enroll to a school that has a stronge team.
Lg...we get it your from a small school....that doesn't mean you can't improve. That doesn't mean you should give up and jump on the cutting weight classes band wagon....good thing schools like Stratford and now tge emerging GET didnt take that road. Its not easy...it won't happen over night. Maybe you dont have the right people in the right places. A good coach doesnt always make a good program builder.
As far as your continued comments about ADs....come on man....the ones I talked to understand the issues....they are not looking to the sport to cut weight classes. Infact I believe cutting weight classes would be more destructive because it would indicate to those outside the sport that we inside the spirt think its dieing.
Finally...you keep trying to take a swipe about open enrollment....I dont care...but its one aspect of running a school that should be run like a business. If you are doing things to improve your programs and other see it they will want be part of it. If you do nothing or dont at least stay up with your competition then you not only will less in your district participating but will likely loose some to other districts. Im not sitting on my hands and watching my customers go else where.
Seems to come in waves where I am. We never burst at the seems; heck our best year we just filled the weights and had two backups. Next few years look a little grim; but, hey, I gotta hit the hallways and invite kids up. I'm fine with the weight classes; but can see how losing a few might help the smaller schools. Still nobody's gonna jump to help the small rural schools. Here, it's more about kids getting involved young and showing them the fun it is to wrestle in tourneys and duals. Now, we have duals set with middle schoolers starting out against each other and progress to the big show. Give the fans a reason to come even when our numbers are less.
Aarons,
I think you are confusing the issues. I don't believe anyone on here is saying that cutting weights will increase participation at an individual school. Though using your analogy that at some schools, kids may quit if they don't have a varsity spot, I'll counter that with some kids may stay in the sport because they will not be forced onto varsity when they aren't ready. Wrestling JV may give them time to learn and keep them in the sport. Is it fair for us to equate our two ideas?
Secondly, Let's just say in the next 5 years we lose 50 more schools in wrestling. All of them are teams that could not fill their varsity weights (let's just say they could fill 10 weights, which is the average that we are seeing thus far in the numbers) and therefore were 12-24 points behind their opponents before the first match started due to forfeits. They were unable to win many if any matches, and this is what the public and admin saw year after year.
With my math we would lose much more than the 50 programs and 500 wrestlers. We would be losing the entire culture of wrestling in these areas. Gone. No reason for youth clubs, no reason for anyone to wrestle at all. No wrestling to benefit kids in other sports. No more wrestling families. This is what my concerns are. If on a well-structured team, with plenty of wrestlers, a kid or two doesn't go out because they don't want to lose a wrestle-off, then 1. That isn't anything new, and can't be looked at as a new problem, it will happen on every basketball team by 11th grade also. 2. They need to read Wrestling Sturbridge and get some perspective and learn why being a back-up isn't a bad thing.
Quote from: aarons23 on January 03, 2017, 08:45:27 AM
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 02, 2017, 11:52:10 PM
Quote from: aarons23 on January 02, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
You guys can talk about cutting weight classes all you want...but reality is the WIAA is not cutting any weight classes unless its done at the national level.....I have not even heard of that being discussed. Even if they did....it wouldn't increase participation ( and your fooling yourself if you think it will). So the smart thing to do would be to find ways to increase participation, wbtw.....should be done even if by some crazy change of events, they did reduce weight classes.
So my question to the guys whom are spending all the time argueing to reduce weight classes...what are you doing in your specific schools to increase participation?
alot, thanks for asking. Though probably not enough according to your standards.
aarons, talk to your AD and administration about budget issues once. I would guess your in a growing district but talk to a district that is struggling. The first things AD see is that a full line up is not being put out on the mat. They liken it to playing football with 10 kids, playing basketball with 4 kids and such.
Overall I am for the 14 weight classes but in all honestly some schools just dont have the numbers that school budgets are willing to support.
you can recruit until your blue in the face, you can offer free wrestling and on and on. you can have very good coaches in all levels and sometimes that just isnt enough to build programs.
I guess the easy way is to recruit from other districts or simply open enroll to a school that has a stronge team.
Lg...we get it your from a small school....that doesn't mean you can't improve. That doesn't mean you should give up and jump on the cutting weight classes band wagon....good thing schools like Stratford and now tge emerging GET didnt take that road. Its not easy...it won't happen over night. Maybe you dont have the right people in the right places. A good coach doesnt always make a good program builder.
As far as your continued comments about ADs....come on man....the ones I talked to understand the issues....they are not looking to the sport to cut weight classes. Infact I believe cutting weight classes would be more destructive because it would indicate to those outside the sport that we inside the spirt think its dieing.
Finally...you keep trying to take a swipe about open enrollment....I dont care...but its one aspect of running a school that should be run like a business. If you are doing things to improve your programs and other see it they will want be part of it. If you do nothing or dont at least stay up with your competition then you not only will less in your district participating but will likely loose some to other districts. Im not sitting on my hands and watching my customers go else where.
aarons please reread my post.
I stated that I am all for 14 weight classes.
My point is that wisconsin has 9 man football and that seems to be working out some what. I am also pointing out that having a division with 12 weight classes might be an option.
GET is doing great, they really are. Also do you realize that it is MM/GET. It is a co-op with 5 towns. No rip on any of those schools. That is just how it is is.
In my area look up all the co-op schools. I really like that to keep wrestling but with that you lose on some aspects also.
In the district I live in we have shown continue growth over 50 years. We are at 500 enrollment. Though I look at some of the neighboring towns that are in St Croix County and they may no be doing as well as people think they are.
On your thoughts of a shot to open enroll,,,,,,to be honest I have no idea what your getting a huff about. I see in some areas that recruiting does go on. Well to be honest who is that helping? Sure the school that does but it isnt helping wrestling.
Also, I get it. Your making your business grow and putting food on the table. But seriously to move from district to district for wrestling, I will never understand that way of thinking. Also aarons, before you think I am talking a shot at you, I have no idea what your situation is nor do I care. Just happy your having fun and your children are doing well lin the sport.
MM-GET is doing great now, that they have the GET kids to help with numbers/wrestlers, but this happened when the co-op happened. MM had lesser numbers through the years, despite great coaches who, I'm sure, went through these debates in their own minds.
Ironically, most of our open enrollment comes from families that prefer the smaller school and tighter controls. I have yet to talk wrestling, or any other sport, during my conferences with these folks. I'm sure the sports open enroll happens; but I don't see it that often. If so, adios. I just tell wrestling focuses kids/parents that the best wrestler all want that scholarship. Very few are to be had and what usually brings a very good wrestler that scholarship is more grades than wrestling.
I'm just refreshed that, in the age of sports open enrollees, many parents actually just look at what's best for their kids as a whole. Any such parents out there may PM me and I'll show ya God's country and the nicest school ya ever visited. :)
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 03, 2017, 12:05:17 PM
Speaking as a football coach 9 man football and cutting weight classes are two different things. They have to block for one another, pass, catch and run plays and schemes together.
The only reason you need a team in wrestling is for practice.
A wrestling dual is a bunch of individuals combining there scores together. Wrestling up or getting bonus points is awesome and fun. But it's not a handoff or a orchestrated team play involving all the players at the time.
9 man and cutting weight classes is not a good comparison, if a full wrestling team has to forfeit a weight because a starter came down with a bad cold the Dual can still go on as planed. If a football team can only field 10 players some one could get seriously hurt or worse.
Not the same at all.
Glad you are not our coach. This mentality is what is killing wrestling. No it is not the team demanded concept of football all working together in one single moment. Yet that is what practice is, getting your teammate better so when it is their turn to help the team whether that is getting a pin or fighting like mad to hold off a state champ to only a decision it is still for the team. If it was just for the individual that kid just failed himself who lost a hard fought 11-4 decision. Yet in a dual his crowd might be screaming louder than the other teams kid who just won. It is a team sport with a bigger individual emphasis.
Hard part is most teams never get to see that side of wrestling already being down 12-24 points, and thus it is just an individual sport to more and more and more towns/teams every year.
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 03, 2017, 12:05:17 PM
Speaking as a football coach 9 man football and cutting weight classes are two different things. They have to block for one another, pass, catch and run plays and schemes together.
The only reason you need a team in wrestling is for practice.
A wrestling dual is a bunch of individuals combining there scores together. Wrestling up or getting bonus points is awesome and fun. But it's not a handoff or a orchestrated team play involving all the players at the time.
9 man and cutting weight classes is not a good comparison, if a full wrestling team has to forfeit a weight because a starter came down with a bad cold the Dual can still go on as planed. If a football team can only field 10 players some one could get seriously hurt or worse.
Not the same at all.
it depends on where you put your thought into on this.
I am a huge team guy and I believe having a heated dual with a closely match team is out of hand great!!!!!!!
Why did teams opt for the 9 man situation. They just did not have the number to compete in the 11 man area!!!!!!!! plain and simple. Also to be able to compete against liked schools in that aspect.
The goal of every teammate is to be the best partner possible and to help improve their skills and their partners skill.
there is alot more that goes into being a teammate. support, hanging out with, being there in the tough times and the good times.
It is truely a cool experience being part of a good team. I would bet if you asked the Ellsworth kids that stick out wrestling for 4 years and see the varsity mat only a few times, being a teammate would rank pretty high on their list.
I would rather be an average kid on a kick butt team than a stud on a bad team. Much more fun having a good team. Maybe I am wrong but man it is fun knowing that your on a great team.
It's 8 man football, and you should check it out!!!
Team sports will always have more popularity and participation than individual sports.
If olympics had team duals it would be more popular than the individual tournament and more likely to be on TV.
The great majority of kids in wrestling wrestle for the team! Why? Because there individual successes will never get them a medal or a picture in the paper. A kid goes 0-2 in an individual tournament and he feels like a "loser" as he spends the rest of the day watching the stud wrestlers. A kid loses his match in a dual but the team wins still goes home feeling like a winner and gets to walk through the line shaking hands knowing he was on the winning TEAM. That keeps him in the sport.
Quote from: littleguy301 on January 03, 2017, 12:35:48 PM
Quote from: getyourpoints on January 03, 2017, 12:05:17 PM
Speaking as a football coach 9 man football and cutting weight classes are two different things. They have to block for one another, pass, catch and run plays and schemes together.
The only reason you need a team in wrestling is for practice.
A wrestling dual is a bunch of individuals combining there scores together. Wrestling up or getting bonus points is awesome and fun. But it's not a handoff or a orchestrated team play involving all the players at the time.
9 man and cutting weight classes is not a good comparison, if a full wrestling team has to forfeit a weight because a starter came down with a bad cold the Dual can still go on as planed. If a football team can only field 10 players some one could get seriously hurt or worse.
Not the same at all.
it depends on where you put your thought into on this.
I am a huge team guy and I believe having a heated dual with a closely match team is out of hand great!!!!!!!
Why did teams opt for the 9 man situation. They just did not have the number to compete in the 11 man area!!!!!!!! plain and simple. Also to be able to compete against liked schools in that aspect.
The goal of every teammate is to be the best partner possible and to help improve their skills and their partners skill.
there is alot more that goes into being a teammate. support, hanging out with, being there in the tough times and the good times.
It is truely a cool experience being part of a good team. I would bet if you asked the Ellsworth kids that stick out wrestling for 4 years and see the varsity mat only a few times, being a teammate would rank pretty high on their list.
I would rather be an average kid on a kick butt team than a stud on a bad team. Much more fun having a good team. Maybe I am wrong but man it is fun knowing that your on a great team.
plus 1! Wrestling is a TEAM sport!
Quote from: bigoil on January 03, 2017, 12:57:04 PM
It's 8 man football, and you should check it out!!!
And it is growing and as its growth rate will pick up each year as it becomes more standard. I can guarantee if they created a division for wrestling with fewer weight classes that many schools would choose that
I love all three styles; but currently Folk is the only one to focus on the team aspect. Man, duals are where the workers earn their checks and feel the love for their hard work. Even if you bump a mediocre kid up to try a state placer or champ and he does well, it's a big deal. Duals just have more opportunity to hook kids in. LG/Oil +1 here.