Seeding system has to be broken

[bigoil]

Isn't it a concern that a coach can be responsible for entering the data correctly, TW has the data. If a coach wanted to be devious, they would just enter the losses as JV.

[Ghetto]

After running a tournament for the past 10 years, I'll go on record saying that you don't want coaches involved in the seeding process. Omissions, mistakes and flat out cheating would make a mess of the state tournament.

[panther93]

For all of those people out there that do not coach, the WIAA and the WWCA put out multiple reminders about seeding this year.  I personally go over my tournaments/duals every Sunday to make sure everything is entered correctly.  Usually is it just a simple select all from the tournament page and clicking import.  One also has to make sure the event is marked at VARISTY, which is a simple click of a dropdown box on the schedule page on Track.

What is frustrating is coaches that do not do their job, either through ignorance or to purposely mislead.  Criteria #2 could be impacted as well as incorrect records by coaches not following through with their duty as a coach. 

One can argue the merits of the criteria being used, but that argument become mute when we do not have the correct data points. The WIAA and ADs need to hold coaches accountable.  In other sports, coaches are required to email and call in scores and stats after each competition.  In wrestling we have a nice one stop shop to do that, yet many coaches do not.  It is hard to move our brand within the public sector with out doing this and giving them access to results. 
Simple solution: do your job.

[WrestlingFan33]

For all of those people out there that do not coach, the WIAA and the WWCA put out multiple reminders about seeding this year.  I personally go over my tournaments/duals every Sunday to make sure everything is entered correctly.  Usually is it just a simple select all from the tournament page and clicking import.  One also has to make sure the event is marked at VARISTY, which is a simple click of a dropdown box on the schedule page on Track.

What is frustrating is coaches that do not do their job, either through ignorance or to purposely mislead.  Criteria #2 could be impacted as well as incorrect records by coaches not following through with their duty as a coach. 

One can argue the merits of the criteria being used, but that argument become mute when we do not have the correct data points. The WIAA and ADs need to hold coaches accountable.  In other sports, coaches are required to email and call in scores and stats after each competition.  In wrestling we have a nice one stop shop to do that, yet many coaches do not.  It is hard to move our brand within the public sector with out doing this and giving them access to results. 
Simple solution: do your job.

What's interesting here in this debate at 190... is Track has the correct overall records but a different part of track (sorry, it's confusing) has a different record.  And this is because records weren't marked as "Varsity!?!"   Just set the default to Varsity if that is the case.  If it's left blank it automatically goes to Varsity.  Should solve that issue.  Or maybe that's too simple.  The information is all there clearly, but just not correctly?   Human error plays a part in everything we do.  We should have the technology to eliminate the human error.

[DocWrestling]

Simply put, if records or seeding criteria is not correct then that is on the coach.  Problem is sometimes that incorrect information helps their wrestler and sometimes it hurts them so it makes it a concern of all coaches.  There is no way the WIAA can keep track of every individual record like they can team records/results.

AD's, WIAA, and other coaches have to call out those not fulfilling their obligations and they should be reprimanded.

Which of course leads you to the next problem which is you don't want to fire or make it harder on coaches because there are not enough people that want their jobs.

[bigoil]

Simply put, if records or seeding criteria is not correct then that is on the coach.  Problem is sometimes that incorrect information helps their wrestler and sometimes it hurts them so it makes it a concern of all coaches.  There is no way the WIAA can keep track of every individual record like they can team records/results.

AD's, WIAA, and other coaches have to call out those not fulfilling their obligations and they should be reprimanded.

Which of course leads you to the next problem which is you don't want to fire or make it harder on coaches because there are not enough people that want their jobs.

Doc, so in this case it hurts a wrestler but what if in another case (which is detailed above) that a wrestler loses a match and it isn't marked as a varsity.

Maybe we can load in all the matches from the '80's and I will be undefeated

[DocWrestling]

According to track wrestling I am undefeated!  0-0.  Good thing I didn't wrestle in any old timers tournaments

[womens_wrestling]

Simply put, if records or seeding criteria is not correct then that is on the coach.  Problem is sometimes that incorrect information helps their wrestler and sometimes it hurts them so it makes it a concern of all coaches.  There is no way the WIAA can keep track of every individual record like they can team records/results.

AD's, WIAA, and other coaches have to call out those not fulfilling their obligations and they should be reprimanded.

Which of course leads you to the next problem which is you don't want to fire or make it harder on coaches because there are not enough people that want their jobs.

Doc, so in this case it hurts a wrestler but what if in another case (which is detailed above) that a wrestler loses a match and it isn't marked as a varsity.

Maybe we can load in all the matches from the '80's and I will be undefeated

Here are other times it helps. These wrestlers in the girls brackets are undefeated in the seeding criteria due to very few matches marked as varsity. That gives them little to no head-to-head and common opponent data. They get a seed point over almost every wrestler who has not been at state before and is not undefeated. Some earned significantly better seeds.

#7 seed at 235 Alyssa Sagen at (1-4) from Cameron
- She has no prior state experience to earn points as a placer or qualifier.
- Going into track, she was 1-4 prior to sectionals. Those matches were not marked as varsity.
- She is seeded only based off her undefeated 4-0 sectionals record. She goes from likely a #14-16 seed to #7.

#8 seed at 114 Gemma Vaccaro (15-11) Fr. from Milwaukee Ronald Reagan
- She has no prior state experience to earn points as a placer or qualifier.
- She has no matches before sectionals marked as varsity and is also seeded only based off her undefeated 4-0 sectionals record. She goes from likely #14-16 seed to #8.

All Reagan's five qualifiers have zero or only a couple matches marked as varsity before sectionals. Some of their wrestlers like at 145 and 185 would probably be seeded high anyway, but their 114 gets a big boost.

#7 at 107 Greta Rzonca (19-5) from Wilmot Union
- Seeded based off a 6-0 record instead of the 19-5 record.

I agree with the posters above that coaches need to be doing this correctly because it can significantly affect some seeds.

[rankwizard]

I appreciate all the respectful discussion on where things can be improved upon. Today is a great day for everyone who enjoys this great sport

[O Harris]

The seeding process needs to be improved. Example: D3 106 On the top of the bracket, you have three wrestlers from the same sectional wrestling again. How does that make any sense?

[DocWrestling]

Comments after two rounds of D1

1) I agree that I would take state qualifier out as criteria.  Some state qualifiers did find an easier path.  In seeding our tournament we also struggled with this when we had returning state qualifiers but they had 6-6 records at the time or something like that.  Maybe replace it with state qualifier that won at least one match at state A lot of kids that qualify and don't place are very good wrestlers and they have earned that criteria if they have won a match at state.

2) Overall the seeding did a nice job. It actually seemed to do an even better job in the upper weights where all the wrestlers are older and their criteria are probably more proven

[Dale Einerson]

I'm old enough to remember pages of threads pleading for seeding.

[tex]

Looks to me like it has done its job in d1 so far by keeping best kids apart going into friday night. I did not see any weights that had the best guys wrestling each other thursday. Remember the purpose of seeding is to get best kids seperated and to semis and finals. The fringe kids and freshman have to go prove themselves, which they have the chance to. Im sure some will but the % will be small.

[tex]

49 of 56 top 4 seeds in semis in d1.
87% accuracy.
Looks like it worked really well to me.

[factfinder]

I think the system works but this thread has raised some interesting potential changes at a review.

I like placing these categories above record and state qualifier last year
a) Number of state qualifiers beaten this year no matter the division or weight class
b) Number of sectional qualifiers beaten this year no matter the division or weight class.

I think this shows strength this year and I do think an interesting point was brought up earlier was that coaches will want to schedule to compete against those in their own division.

How about a tiebreaker being most matches won at the weight class they qualified at.  Pick a way to reward those that wrestled at the weight class all year and did not just drop at the end of season.

I would be against making sectional placing as a category unless a formula could be devised that can measure strength of the weight class at that sectional.  Some sectionals are certainly tougher than others but really the determining factor is the strength of that weight class at that sectional.  A weak sectional can still have a loaded weight class.

If a wrestler can wrestle a guy at regionals and sectionals then why can't he wrestle again 1st round at state?  I get it sucks for the wrestlers but is the most fair.  Same thing is just as bad when two kids from the same conference get matched up 1st round at state which has happened for decades.

Regional results and State qualify points are always a challenge because some sectionals are easier than others. That's why last year's state placement is important, it's easy for some athletes to make state!