Seeding system has to be broken

[wiwrestle#1]

MFF are definitely being abused

[VQOriginal]

Since MFF's seem to be the top complaint on this subject, does anyone throwing that one out there have a list of athletes that intentionally did it to avoid someone? Genuinely interested. So I'll wait.

[picklesnthings]

I am just curious as to how many there were at each sectional.  We had 6 at ours.  One in the semi's (he did continue to wrestle after), 2 in the finals, and 3 in the 2nd place wrestleback.  From what I watched those kids did not get injured in their previous match, but I can't say if they were injured coming in. 

[CLC FAN]

Look at D2 138lbs. Delebreau beat Bozile each time they faced off this year (all of Bozile's losses) including Sectionals, Bozile still got the #2 seed, that can't happen.

https://www.trackwrestling.com/predefinedtournaments/PrintableWeightClassInfo.jsp?TIM=1708464563517&twSessionId=uwnjmtfdos&groupId=18597138

What this link shows is that the seeding system "deemed" Delebreau as being the superior wrestler when compared to 7 wrestlers in the bracket... based on your information, that includes Bozile.  It also said 4 wrestlers in the bracket were better than Delebreau. 

The system "deemed" Bozile as being better than 8 wrestlers in the bracket.  In fact, Bozile, Mau, and Scoles were all deemed to be better than 8 and worse than 3.  So Delebreau ends up below all of those (and below Penn who the system had as better than all 11) and Bozile ended up winning the 3-way time amongst himself, Mau, and Scoles.  I'm sure someone who knows the bracket well could figure out and post who were the 4 that the system rated as above Delebreau (one of them was clearly Penn).  Then you could argue what you think instead.

[DocWrestling]

I think the system works but this thread has raised some interesting potential changes at a review.

I like placing these categories above record and state qualifier last year
a) Number of state qualifiers beaten this year no matter the division or weight class
b) Number of sectional qualifiers beaten this year no matter the division or weight class.

I think this shows strength this year and I do think an interesting point was brought up earlier was that coaches will want to schedule to compete against those in their own division.

How about a tiebreaker being most matches won at the weight class they qualified at.  Pick a way to reward those that wrestled at the weight class all year and did not just drop at the end of season.

I would be against making sectional placing as a category unless a formula could be devised that can measure strength of the weight class at that sectional.  Some sectionals are certainly tougher than others but really the determining factor is the strength of that weight class at that sectional.  A weak sectional can still have a loaded weight class.

If a wrestler can wrestle a guy at regionals and sectionals then why can't he wrestle again 1st round at state?  I get it sucks for the wrestlers but is the most fair.  Same thing is just as bad when two kids from the same conference get matched up 1st round at state which has happened for decades.

[WrestlerSB80]

106 Wolters N Busler just wrestled each other at regionals, team state, and sectionals, and now first round at state.

[DocWrestling]

106 Wolters N Busler just wrestled each other at regionals, team state, and sectionals, and now first round at state.

That does suck but the results keep changing. They also wrestled in first tourney of season.  Interesting though that the results keep changing

[downtown]

Every year people will be complaining about the first round matchups at state.  The seeding for D2 & D3 isn't as good as it used to be, that is a understandable complaint.  It is a big deal if you take second at your sectional and get to wrestle a sectional third place.  It also does suck to have to wrestle the same kid back to back weeks (especially if you just lost to him).  But a lot of kids wrestled in the conference finals and then wrestled in the regional finals a week later for a future seeded tournament (sectionals) and people weren't getting all hot and bothered about it. 

For D1 seeding it is infinitely better than the old matrix system.  That was an absolute joke.

Chris Hansen said that part of the stipulation of getting a seeded tournament was no human interaction.  Which is too bad.  Because the easiest solution is the human interaction.  If you had every state qualifier coach put in their record, common opponents that qualified in that division and weight, highest place at last years tournament series whether it is a state champion or 6th at regionals, and note worthy accomplishments on current folk style season.  Then have the coaches put in their seeds from 1-11 or 1-15 and not rank your own wrestler.  Lowest total is the lowest seed and so forth. You would have a very balanced, seeded weight class.  If you fail to put in your wrestlers information or don't seed you automatically gain 10 seeding points to your total (try explaining that epic fail to the kids parents).  The coaches know whos who at each of their kids qualifying weight classes.  It wouldn't take more than 10 minutes per kid to put in the information and seed it per coach.  With so many qualifiers it would be incredibly difficult for coaches to pull favors as well and noticeably change the outcome of the seeds.  All of this would be done in a timeframe that track would be open for a short window say the Sunday following sectionals.

But the main thing that would solve the problem is double elimination at state.  They used to tell us there wasn't enough time to do it.  Then it was it was close to enough time.  Then they added girls state.  So I guess there always was enough time.  Not having double elimination at state is embarrassing.  Even more embarrassing then wrestling 1 minute first periods on wrestle backs.  If you implement that most rationale people would be satisfied.

[DocWrestling]

Other sports had coaches doing the seeding originally and it was a massive fail and all went away from it.  The only way to get human involvement would be to have a non coaches committee to maybe review for any major errors but I don't think anyone has identified any "major" errors.  And once you make one change then it open up all kinds of complaints.

[beastmode]

D2 190 is wrong based on the current seeding criteria. Wyatt Ingham should have 11 points and Silas Daily 10. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  I went through the head to head and it comes dow to the final criteria which Ingham wins. Hmmm

[CLC FAN]

D2 190 is weird

Ingham and Dailey have not wrestled head to head it seems

Ingham's only loss was to Mirasola (who Dailey also lost to)

They were both state champs last year

They are both sectional champs

Should come down to record with the point going to Ingham for better winning percentage


Yet track has Dailey with 11 seed points, meaning he was given the point over everyone in the bracket, including Ingham

[Fan1]

D2 190 does appear to be an error and should have gone to winning percentage with the point going to Ingham between the two of them. I'd ask for clarification on that one though with those two wrestlers, I don't envision them having trouble outside of the finals.

[Backwards Singlet]

D2 190 does appear to be an error and should have gone to winning percentage with the point going to Ingham between the two of them. I'd ask for clarification on that one though with those two wrestlers, I don't envision them having trouble outside of the finals.

D2 190 is weird

Ingham and Dailey have not wrestled head to head it seems

Ingham's only loss was to Mirasola (who Dailey also lost to)

They were both state champs last year

They are both sectional champs

Should come down to record with the point going to Ingham for better winning percentage

Yet track has Dailey with 11 seed points, meaning he was given the point over everyone in the bracket, including Ingham

D2 190 is wrong based on the current seeding criteria. Wyatt Ingham should have 11 points and Silas Daily 10. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  I went through the head to head and it comes dow to the final criteria which Ingham wins. Hmmm

When the seeding points don't seem correct, it's most likely a coach's error. The computer runs it the same for everyone based on the data entered. It appears both coaches don't have their data entered correctly.

The important thing to note is that seeding only pulls matches from varsity matches entered into Track.

Ingham is 31-1 on the bracket and that comes from whatever coaches enter at regionals. On Track, if you go into Amery's matches and print matches for all levels, he's 24-1.

If you select varsity matches only for Ingham, he is only 13-0. Most of his matches on the year were not marked as varsity so he doesn't get credit for those in seeding. He's probably missing head-to-head and common opponent wins he should have.

For Silas, he's 47-3 on the bracket and 36-1 on Track varsity matches used for seeding. He's missing some wins and losses that were not included in seeding. If he lost to Mirasola, Track has no idea because it's not listed under his matches at all.

Unfortunately, not all coaches enter everything correctly. The WIAA has been very clear on how the process works and how to make sure everything is counted, but that's not always followed.

[beastmode]

I bet the algorithm goes strictly off what the coaches input as their athlete's 2023-24 season. I went into the Dailey's season and the coach never linked in the outside tournaments that Dailey participated in therefore it only show's him with one loss to Aiden Sinclair. That said, all of Wyatt's matches aren't on there either.  The coaches need to make sure the data is accurate in order for the seeds to be accurate.

[beastmode]

D2 190 does appear to be an error and should have gone to winning percentage with the point going to Ingham between the two of them. I'd ask for clarification on that one though with those two wrestlers, I don't envision them having trouble outside of the finals.

D2 190 is weird

Ingham and Dailey have not wrestled head to head it seems

Ingham's only loss was to Mirasola (who Dailey also lost to)

They were both state champs last year

They are both sectional champs

Should come down to record with the point going to Ingham for better winning percentage

Yet track has Dailey with 11 seed points, meaning he was given the point over everyone in the bracket, including Ingham

D2 190 is wrong based on the current seeding criteria. Wyatt Ingham should have 11 points and Silas Daily 10. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.  I went through the head to head and it comes dow to the final criteria which Ingham wins. Hmmm

When the seeding points don't seem correct, it's most likely a coach's error. The computer runs it the same for everyone based on the data entered. It appears both coaches don't have their data entered correctly.

The important thing to note is that seeding only pulls matches from varsity matches entered into Track.

Ingham is 31-1 on the bracket and that comes from whatever coaches enter at regionals. On Track, if you go into Amery's matches and print matches for all levels, he's 24-1.

If you select varsity matches only for Ingham, he is only 13-0. Most of his matches on the year were not marked as varsity so he doesn't get credit for those in seeding. He's probably missing head-to-head and common opponent wins he should have.

For Silas, he's 47-3 on the bracket and 36-1 on Track varsity matches used for seeding. He's missing some wins and losses that were not included in seeding. If he lost to Mirasola, Track has no idea because it's not listed under his matches at all.

Unfortunately, not all coaches enter everything correctly. The WIAA has been very clear on how the process works and how to make sure everything is counted, but that's not always followed.

Then there needs to be some check's and balances to make sure the coaches use trackwrestling correctly, or else you could manipulate the seeding system by only entering the information you deem fit.