Is Ben Askren good for Wisconsin Wrestling?

[O Harris]

Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.

[onwisconsin]

I will pull for most every kid (cannot think of any exceptions right now) who is from Wisconsin no matter where they wrestle in college.  Just like I root for all our USA wrestlers in the Olympics or World Championships.

That being said I want the Badger program to be excellent and am happy with Coach Bono. I also want our Fargo teams to be excellent.  I just find it extremely disappointing the relationship or lack of a relationship that is present between AWA and UW-Madison.  No matter what the reason or the cause, it is highly disappointing.

To me it doesn't make sense to carry grudges, especially if it limits a kids options.  I wish all parties could forgive, communicate, and get past this.  It is how we are supposed to handle situations as adults. Sets a better example for our kids.

[Army Ant]

I agree. Both excellent coaches. It isn't his job to help Bono. It IS Bonos job to have positive relationships w coaches in the state.

Personally, I'd rather see our WI natives be successful than the Badger wrestling team, if I had to choose. That's just me. Obviously, both would be ideal since I'm also a Badger fan.

My answer is yes.

[wrestlemania]

3). I have heard many close to the situation say "Ben wants Chris fired".  I don't think Ben has kept it secret that he wants Chris fired. That is definitely attempting to affect Chris's livelihood.  On the flip side, I don't believe (or at least I haven't heard) of anyone with the University saying "don't attend AWA", etc in a way that would hurt AWA's livelihood.  It's just been fans on this forum.  Both shouldn't happen.

Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.

He didn't get along with Barry and now he doesn't get along with Bono and apparently wants him fired. He wanted Barry replaced too. He showed the utmost disrespect to a Big Ten champion and NCAA champion and Olympic medalist because he thinks he's something special. You know what that this tells me? He won't be satisfied unless the UW coach is his puppet or toadies to him in some way. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Sorry, UW's not going that route. Askren is free to do what he wants and if that means steering his kids away from UW that's fine too. Hope the internet is high speed wherever they live if people want to follow them as they wrestle out-of-state. As for UW, as Barry Alvarez once said to a recruit "We'll win whether they come to Wisconsin or not." The butt-kissing is over!   

[1Iota]

3). I have heard many close to the situation say "Ben wants Chris fired".  I don't think Ben has kept it secret that he wants Chris fired. That is definitely attempting to affect Chris's livelihood.  On the flip side, I don't believe (or at least I haven't heard) of anyone with the University saying "don't attend AWA", etc in a way that would hurt AWA's livelihood.  It's just been fans on this forum.  Both shouldn't happen.

Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.

He didn't get along with Barry and now he doesn't get along with Bono and apparently wants him fired. He wanted Barry replaced too. He showed the utmost disrespect to a Big Ten champion and NCAA champion and Olympic medalist because he thinks he's something special. You know what that this tells me? He won't be satisfied unless the UW coach is his puppet or toadies to him in some way. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Sorry, UW's not going that route. Askren is free to do what he wants and if that means steering his kids away from UW that's fine too. Hope the internet is high speed wherever they live if people want to follow them as they wrestle out-of-state. As for UW, as Barry Alvarez once said to a recruit "We'll win whether they come to Wisconsin or not." The butt-kissing is over!   

This!  Those of us who spent the last decade plus involved in youth wrestling know all to well the Askren ego is real, and a problem for the rest of Wisconsin wrestling.  Ben cares about AWA,  He has not real concern the state of wrestling as a whole.  Bono also doesn't need AWA.  Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up.  Bono has this program moving in the rigth direction and shouldn't try to appease won guy who is never satisfied.

[MRL_84]

Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.

In his book, Ben is pretty open about his relationship with Barry.  Per his book, Ben liked Wisconsin and was a big fan of Donny Pritzlaff.  But, Barry didn't like Ben and even went as far as to tell other coaches that he wasn't any good and not to recruit him.

Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up

Off the top of my head, Parker Keckeisen and Stephen Buchanan would fit in the lineup nicely.

[wrastle63]

Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.

In his book, Ben is pretty open about his relationship with Barry.  Per his book, Ben liked Wisconsin and was a big fan of Donny Pritzlaff.  But, Barry didn't like Ben and even went as far as to tell other coaches that he wasn't any good and not to recruit him.

Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up

Off the top of my head, Parker Keckeisen and Stephen Buchanan would fit in the lineup nicely.

He didn't wrestle for AWA. Parker would for sure look good in the lineup along with even Mocco.

[MRL_84]

My mistake on Buchanan... I guess its not just AWA wrestlers leaving the state. 

[vsmf2010]

My mistake on Buchanan... I guess its not just AWA wrestlers leaving the state. 

To be fair, I think everyone missed on Buchanan. Props to Wyoming for seeing his potential.

[Vir Fortis]

The real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers.  Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50).  I feel sorry for those kids

Don't understand this logic, at all.  They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers?  By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA?  Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced?  I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose. 
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.

You are missing the point, yes HS/club coaches can influence some kids and parents!  They build a strong trust(which is not bad) but some kids/parents just dont have other reference points.   Its called a pipeline to a certain school which is exactly what is going on at Missouri.(not a novel thing, happens in all sports)  Look at Missouri's roster and the number of kids from WI compared to neighboring states and every kid from WI are AWA kids.   And this has been going on for years, pre-dating the current UW staff.

Why can UW attract elite HS/club kids and even get great (AA) wrestlers

The real people that are hurt in this are the AWA high school wrestlers.  Some (not all) of them are very likely being influenced out of the opportunity to wrestle for their home state school, be closer to home for family and friends to attend, compete in the best Conference in the country and most importantly lose out on the education of a top 10 public university (vs Missouri that isn't even in the top 50).  I feel sorry for those kids

Don't understand this logic, at all.  They're being hurt by turning in to elite wrestlers?  By having more opportunities because of what they were taught at AWA?  Are you saying that the parents and wrestlers are easily influenced?  I recall others defending Ben stating he showed pride in his wrestlers no matter what college they chose. 
I like seeing our state schools succeed, but Ben doesn't work for the UW.

You are missing the point, yes HS/club coaches can influence some kids and parents!  They build a strong trust(which is not bad) but some kids/parents just dont have other reference points.   Its called a pipeline to a certain school which is exactly what is going on at Missouri.(not a novel thing, happens in all sports)  Look at Missouri's roster and the number of kids from WI compared to neighboring states and every kid from WI are AWA kids.   And this has been going on for years, pre-dating the current UW staff.

Why can UW attract elite HS/club kids and even get great (AA) wrestlers to transfer in from other colleges and thrive but this isnt happening with elite AWA wrestlers???  Something smells a little bad and has been for many years. 

100% agreed, Ben and Maxx owe nothing to UW and currently we shouldn't expect anything different

So by this logic, Ben and Max have ALL the power in terms of where kids go and Bono doesn't have any responsibility for that??  Poor Bono is just at the whim of Ben and Max and where those kids end of going to college to wrestle.

Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it.

This whole thing is a two-way street...Bono and Ben own it...period.  But to blame one side over the other is absolutely ridiculous.  I believe Ben truly would try and repair the relationship, because despite his bravado, he has proven over and over he wants what is best for his kids.  As for Bono...I have no idea...don't know the man from a hole in the wall...but if he is just throwing his hands up in the air and being like, "well Ben is just steering kids away from the UW, nothing I can do" then a lot of the blame does fall on him.  Good leaders sometimes have to swallow their pride and do what is best for the program, sure hope Bono does that.

to transfer in from other colleges and thrive but this isnt happening with elite AWA wrestlers???  Something smells a little bad and has been for many years. 

100% agreed, Ben and Maxx owe nothing to UW and currently we shouldn't expect anything different

So by this logic, Ben and Max have ALL the power in terms of where kids go and Bono doesn't have any responsibility for that??  Poor Bono is just at the whim of Ben and Max and where those kids end of going to college to wrestle.

Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it.

This whole thing is a two-way street...Bono and Ben own it...period.  But to blame one side over the other is absolutely ridiculous.  I believe Ben truly would try and repair the relationship, because despite his bravado, he has proven over and over he wants what is best for his kids.  As for Bono...I have no idea...don't know the man from a hole in the wall...but if he is just throwing his hands up in the air and being like, "well Ben is just steering kids away from the UW, nothing I can do" then a lot of the blame does fall on him.  Good leaders sometimes have to swallow their pride and do what is best for the program, sure hope Bono does that.

By this logic is seems like you took what he said(can have SOME INFLUENCE)...then you read it, it got cut with your own ideas and...lets be kind and say rationale and you used it and created an argument that fit your narrative better(something you could make a really foolish, sarcastic comment about) and argued THAT vs that point.

Please quote JUST the part of the comment that led you to believe that he was inferring Ben and Max have "ALL the power" and that Bono has "no responsibility?"


I'm trying to understand your deductive reasoning here and I'd simply like to know how that was your takeaway from what was ACTUALLY said...which was absolutely NOTHING remotely similar to how you interpreted it?

[Vir Fortis]

Now to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.

Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.

So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.

So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.


Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'

No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.


So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.

I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.


Multiple things can be true.

[dman]

Now to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.

Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.

So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.

So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.


Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'

No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.


So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.

I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.


Multiple things can be true.

So to fit YOUR narrative you only look at it from what Ben is and isn't doing but nowhere in your ramblings do you hold Bono and staff responsible for the situation.  My point since you seem to not understand is that it is a two-way street...period.  So you can paint your narrative that big bad Ben holds responsibility for the lack of AWA kids going to UW, but I'll stick with both are at fault, but I think Bono owns the majority of the responsibility.  Just as you say Ben's ego (which is large) is the problem, so is Bono's...maybe even more so. 

[Wrestling Thug]

3). I have heard many close to the situation say "Ben wants Chris fired".  I don't think Ben has kept it secret that he wants Chris fired. That is definitely attempting to affect Chris's livelihood.  On the flip side, I don't believe (or at least I haven't heard) of anyone with the University saying "don't attend AWA", etc in a way that would hurt AWA's livelihood.  It's just been fans on this forum.  Both shouldn't happen.

Did Ben get along with Barry? I can't recall if they did get along but something tells me they didn't.

He didn't get along with Barry and now he doesn't get along with Bono and apparently wants him fired. He wanted Barry replaced too. He showed the utmost disrespect to a Big Ten champion and NCAA champion and Olympic medalist because he thinks he's something special. You know what that this tells me? He won't be satisfied unless the UW coach is his puppet or toadies to him in some way. Doesn't matter who the coach is. Sorry, UW's not going that route. Askren is free to do what he wants and if that means steering his kids away from UW that's fine too. Hope the internet is high speed wherever they live if people want to follow them as they wrestle out-of-state. As for UW, as Barry Alvarez once said to a recruit "We'll win whether they come to Wisconsin or not." The butt-kissing is over!   

This!  Those of us who spent the last decade plus involved in youth wrestling know all to well the Askren ego is real, and a problem for the rest of Wisconsin wrestling.  Ben cares about AWA,  He has not real concern the state of wrestling as a whole.  Bono also doesn't need AWA.  Outside of O'tool, who was going to be a stud with or without Ben, there are not a lof of other wrestlers that crack our line up.  Bono has this program moving in the rigth direction and shouldn't try to appease won guy who is never satisfied.

Didn't O'toole get most of his coaching from Gomez Wrestling in the first place? He was pretty elite before he got to Askren.

[kmoc33]

Didn't O'toole get most of his coaching from Gomez Wrestling in the first place? He was pretty elite before he got to Askren.
[/quote]

I am assuming this is an innocent question. But the answer is no, not even close in my opinion. Most of his training up until like 4th grade was mainly from Gomez. And yes he was elite at that time. But we are talking about a 4th grader. The majority of his coaching and true life lessons, that make him as good as he is, came after that point from his parents, AWA, and his HS coach Ferrell.

[Healthy and happy]

Now to answer the question, AWA is objectively good for the state.

Wisconsin just not on the level of Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, states that probably had a comparable level of talent because the wrestling was too spread out.

So Askren and the Crass brothers and Pinnacle, they are changing the sport of Wrestling in Wisconsin. And I think John Messinbrink is one of the best coaching working with individuals and getting the most out of them.

So yeah, he's ABSOLUTELY good for the State...in terms of creating and developing the best wrestlers.


Is his ego the best for all the kids and the States Flagship University? No, of course not. And...before someone stops me and says sommething foolish like, 'So you're saying these kids and their parents have absolutely no say in where they wrestle in College, they just go where Ben(and Maxx...who I suspect is FAR-FAR less concerned over this) order them to go?'

No...of course not. That'd be an inappropriate term01 conclusion. But if you put in the hours you put into wrestling at these camps and you develop the rapport that most coaches do with their athletes, the athletes come to have a great deal of respect for said coach and the parents see their kids earning D1 scholarships and they're proud and grateful and that will invariably lead to an outsized influence on the athletes.


So I'd say just the kids getting and opportunity to go to these clubs closer to their houses and work with other kids and learn from a HOF coach and D1 Wrestlers like Wagner's and the Askren's(or again, the Crass brothers or any clubs that have grown)...that is great and we're seeing the benefits pay off.

I think (and yes, I do understand that UW is not for everyone as I head you off at the pass for this inevitable response) it's also hurting the kids. They're not Wrestling in front of their home state, their fans, in the B1G, at one of the best schools that has D1 Wrestling in terms of academics.


Multiple things can be true.

So to fit YOUR narrative you only look at it from what Ben is and isn't doing but nowhere in your ramblings do you hold Bono and staff responsible for the situation.  My point since you seem to not understand is that it is a two-way street...period.  So you can paint your narrative that big bad Ben holds responsibility for the lack of AWA kids going to UW, but I'll stick with both are at fault, but I think Bono owns the majority of the responsibility.  Just as you say Ben's ego (which is large) is the problem, so is Bono's...maybe even more so. 

Past behavior is a great predictor of future behavior.  The Askern's had negative things to says about Barry Davis and promoted him getting fired.  That started well over a decade ago.   Enter Chris Bono and that past behavior reared its ugly head yet again. So Chris does have some responsibility but your argument lacks the teeth needed to make it that credible. Ben and Maxx's behavior/attitude is pretty predictable and it is a little silly to thing otherwise