WWCA meeting

Started by Redeemer, March 31, 2022, 09:19:07 AM

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greysquirrelmobile

#90
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling? 

wrastle63

Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remedying the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade. No emphasis on competition just activities.    Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?
Probably our biggest problem as a sport imo. More matches than practices especially for kids new to the sport at a young age.

factfinder

#92
Here is my final break down, I have no more band with left to dive in any deeper. There doesn't seem to be any trends that jump off the page. It seems thing go up and down in every state with participation spikes as high as 12% and lows that bottom out a -21%.
First observation is the participation rate for wrestling to total male athlete's (many may be duplicated with multi sport athletes) for the past 20 years.

>Wisc median ave. for total male athletes is 110,085 a year, with 7433 wrestlers a year 6.7%
>MN Median ave. for total male athletes is 118,696 a year, with 8137 wrestlers a year 6.8%
>Iowa median ave. for total male athletes is 85,755 a year, with 6772 wrestler a year 7.8%
>IL median ave. for total male athletes is 192,632 a year, with 15540 wrestlers a year 8.0%
>MI median ave. for total male athletes is 172,291 a year, with 10,810 wrestlers a year 6.2%
This gives a baseline of 7.1% participation rate, so if Wisconsin was at 7.1 they would have an additional 383 wrestlers.

             2002                       2009                                 2012                        2019

Wisc.      7368.                      8337.  (+969)                   7399. (+31)              6669. (down -699)
MN.        8587.                      7911.  (-676)                    8137 (-450)               8085  (down -502)
Iowa.      6490.                      7032.  (-542)                    7044. (+554)            6523.  (up +33)
IL.         14,655.                   16,213. (-1558)                 17112.(+2457)          14170 (down -485)
MI.        11624.                     11546. (-78)                     10904. (-720)            9167. (down -2457)  YIKES

In summary it looks as the wrestling numbers goes up and down in close parallel to total all sports participation numbers.



MNbadger

I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

MNbadger

I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

Ghetto

Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?

Our youth numbers are high. I would agree that our young kids compete too much and they burn out. The problem we run into is that parents WANT that and if you as a club don't don't do that, they'll figure out a way. It's not just wrestling. It's all sports.
As long as we are keeping score, I've got something to prove

ChargerDad

Quote from: Ghetto on April 14, 2022, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?

Our youth numbers are high. I would agree that our young kids compete too much and they burn out. The problem we run into is that parents WANT that and if you as a club don't don't do that, they'll figure out a way. It's not just wrestling. It's all sports.

Too many parents think that their kid wants it, that they aren't going to be the one that burns out, maybe because too many parents want their kids to want it.  Some parents are right, and their kid wants to compete and to practice a lot, but many, perhaps most, are not, and their kids flame out.  Very few parents see burn out coming in time to do anything about it.  Usually they don't see it until their kid decides they are done.  Don't make your kid think that part of making you happy is them wanting it, because then they will want it for the wrong reason, and you won't see it.  It's very hard to tell when a kid wants it for themselves and when they are trying to please a parent.  For me, the most important thing is to make sure the kids keep having fun, because if it's not fun, they move on to something that is.

factfinder

Quote from: ChargerDad on April 15, 2022, 08:23:46 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on April 14, 2022, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: greysquirrelmobile on April 13, 2022, 01:34:37 PM
What about not looking for next year's fix/adjustment.   What if we look at participation as a seperate issue? With an If ...Then chart.   If we increase numbers at the youth level by doing X then we will have more numbers in middle school... if we have more numbers in middle school then we have more in high school.   Does somebody have a model that outlines activities and roles ?  I remember the 1980s the basketball coaches association all got together and developed a Saturday morning youth curriculum and outlined the skills that would be worked on in 3rd through 6th grade.  No emphasis on competition just activities....their numbers increased.  Bottom line:  what's the solution to increasing participation vs.  changing the proportion of wrestlers to weight classes by cutting the denominator?    When there's problems with numbers whether it's budgets or allocations, the easy solution is always to cut.  The creative and harder solutions require effort and dedication to grow.  Isn't this what the IOC did to "improve" wrestling?

Our youth numbers are high. I would agree that our young kids compete too much and they burn out. The problem we run into is that parents WANT that and if you as a club don't don't do that, they'll figure out a way. It's not just wrestling. It's all sports.

Too many parents think that their kid wants it, that they aren't going to be the one that burns out, maybe because too many parents want their kids to want it.  Some parents are right, and their kid wants to compete and to practice a lot, but many, perhaps most, are not, and their kids flame out.  Very few parents see burn out coming in time to do anything about it.  Usually they don't see it until their kid decides they are done.  Don't make your kid think that part of making you happy is them wanting it, because then they will want it for the wrong reason, and you won't see it.  It's very hard to tell when a kid wants it for themselves and when they are trying to please a parent.  For me, the most important thing is to make sure the kids keep having fun, because if it's not fun, they move on to something that is.
+1000
Very well said!
Every parent hopes their child is the next Spencer Lee or Kyle Snyder that wins everything from 2nd grade all the way to NCAA titles. And maybe a few are? But I also see a lot of burn out from kids (and parents) trying to keep up with other elite kids, thinking they are falling behind if they are not getting in 5-8 "hard" practices a week.
Working real hard and going to practices with average technique will never catch up to consistent practices with great technique!! Be smart about where the kids train and then pull off the gas and let them have balance in their life.
Remember even in the Big 10 most teams are only practicing 3-4x a week, and that's the most elite dedicated young men out there in the wrestling world!

hammer

Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Redeemer

#99
Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.

wrastle63

Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM
Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.
Lack of logic being used. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.

Ghetto

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM
Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.
Lack of logic being used THAT AGREES WITH THE POSITION I'VE TAKEN. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.


Fixed it for you.
As long as we are keeping score, I've got something to prove

wrastle63

#102
Quote from: Ghetto on May 06, 2022, 10:27:37 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM
Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.
Lack of logic being used THAT AGREES WITH THE POSITION I'VE TAKEN. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.


Fixed it for you.
No I gave a solution of having 12 weights for duals to the "problem" of duals. That doesn't hurt individuals, doesn't bring less kids to the sport, doesn't bring less kids to sectionals, state, etc. but still makes duals better. 

Don't make a change like that for something that you HOPE MIGHT make a better product. There will still be huge lopsided duals with forfeits and quick pins. 

Ghetto

Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 10:31:11 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on May 06, 2022, 10:27:37 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on May 06, 2022, 08:56:48 AM
Quote from: Redeemer on May 06, 2022, 08:51:13 AM
Quote from: hammer on April 18, 2022, 10:25:35 AM
Doing JHI would solve 3 of the weight class issues in a heartbeat. 106, 113 and 120.  Sounds like in the states they have combined 182 and 195 didnt result in the numbers people first thought. I have heard that basically the numbers went down in that area due to reducing a weight class and states with out JHI still are struggling to fill the lowest 3 classes.

Yea, cutting weight classes will only convince more low-tier/middle tier middle school wrestlers to quit wrestling... and the point of   burnout and parents mismanaging their children is more accurate than the 14 weight classes.

As I said before, the level of competition at all 14 weights is pretty high at the top and cutting weights will only be detrimental in the long run. Just because many of the low--tier wrestlers quit wrestling in middle school, doesn't mean the competition at the top is hurting.. and cutting classes won't convince these low-tier wrestlers to stick it out. It's parents and coaches.

It's sad to see some of the logic on this thread about redrawing the weight classes.
Lack of logic being used THAT AGREES WITH THE POSITION I'VE TAKEN. Other sports have like football have been given as an example to show it doesn't help the sport.


Fixed it for you.
No I gave a solution of having 12 weights for duals to the "problem" of duals. That doesn't hurt individuals, doesn't bring less kids to the sport, doesn't bring less kids to sectionals, state, etc. but still makes duals better.

I think that's a great start. Doesn't hurt the large majority of teams and allows for the same state tournament.

I also like being able to send 14 kids to regionals regardless of weight.
As long as we are keeping score, I've got something to prove

Redeemer

The level and depth of talent at 106, 113, 120, and 126 was pretty fun to follow last season... sorry to see some of you guys not appreciating it, while most of us did.