WWCA meeting

[npope]

Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

I'm throwing a flag on you, Obessed! Waaay outside the box 

[npope]

First post, so bear with me as I try and offer my thoughts.

It seems to me that people who love wrestling looking for ways to fix wrestling for those who do not love wrestling won't get us anywhere.  We can't really understand why someone would choose to leave something we care so deeply about.  As a result, we could never change it in a meaningful way (unless we just got lucky) to fix it for the next generation. We have opinions and thoughts as to why, but we have little if any data.  We aren't asking the people whose information we really need.

In an effort to get data, what if we had a standard approach to ask kids why they quit or choose a different sport? Not necessarily to convince them to return, but rather to impact the next generation of young wrestlers.  I certainly don't have the form, but if we started with a questionnaire of like 5 questions we could at least start to figure out the why.  If every coach had the same set of 5 questions we could look to see if there were any trends that we could address.  Each coach could then compile the results into a database of the larger state and see if we can find a trend and maybe even a solution.  We all see it through the lens of our own experiences, but a broader gaze might be needed.

Thanks for chiming in and joining the conversation. Yes, data - good data - the right data, would be helpful in better understanding. But littleguy kinda hit on my thoughts, I bet I could tick off about 4 out of the top 5 reasons - they seem obvious to me (because I saw them both as a coach and as a competitor) and they were the same ones I had when I let other sports fall by the wayside as I grew up.

1. No fun
2. Not good enough to get playing time
3. Busy with other interests
4. Didn't like getting smashed (I was 120 pounds looking for playing time as a junior in football - yikes!!)
5. Nobody cares about wrestling, not even their (girl)friends

I bet data would support a lot of the rationale for quitting.

[No one]

That's kind of the idea behind accumulating data, we wouldn't have to guess.  I too have had wrestlers list those very same reason, but this is anecdotal.  If we had hard data we could know for sure and make adjustments to make the sport more attractive.  If all the coaches around the state find that we have the same 3 reasons why kids are quitting, we could then explore ways to improve rather than just guessing about adding or cutting weight classes.  We may even find that no changes are needed, but right now we are just guessing based on our own personal experiences.

[LaValle]

Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

I'm throwing a flag on you, Obessed! Waaay outside the box 

You mean like MHSSA

Michigan High School Wrestling 2021-2022

https://www.mhsaa.com/portals/0/documents/wr/psti.pdf

[LaValle]

Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

I'm throwing a flag on you, Obessed! Waaay outside the box 

You mean like MHSSA

Michigan High School Wrestling 2021-2022

https://www.mhsaa.com/portals/0/documents/wr/psti.pdf

INDIVIDUAL FORMAT - In the Individual tournament series, school teams are assigned to one of 8 Districts in
each Division where wrestlers compete as individuals in bracketed, seeded competition. Individual matches will
take place in 14 weight classes with the top four wrestlers advancing to one of 4 Regionals in each Division with
two Districts feeding each Regional. The top four wrestlers in each weight class at the Regional tournament
qualify for the MHSAA Individual Finals at Ford Field. A school may enter a maximum of 14 wrestlers at the
Individual District Tournament with no more than 2 wrestlers in any one weight class. Pairings for the Individual
Finals will consist of seeding the four Regional champions, then completing the remainder of the bracket based
on formula.



They also use the old weight....Darn NFHS rule breakers

[Ghetto]

I love the idea of 12 for the regular season and 14 for regionals --> state with multiple kids possible in each weight. It's the best of both worlds actually.

What a great compromise.

On the reasons that kids quit, that would be interesting if kids would be honest about it.

Rather than have each individual coach have their own, why not have a shared link that all the data would populate all in one spot? If that's something a bunch of coaches would use, I'd be happy to make a google form to make it happen.

[DocWrestling]

8-man football has saved a lot of football "opportunities" to play

The only "opportunities" lost in wrestling are when teams are cut or co-oped.

Without 8-man football there would be a lot fewer high school football teams and a lot of kids that would not have had the chance to play football.

I am proponent of change in wrestling to prevent further loss of wrestling teams. To be honest I am not even worried about losing wrestlers.  We have to keep the teams and the coaches in budgets to even give wrestlers and opportunity to compete.

I do believe that it is harder for administrators to cut wrestling when teams have an easier chance to come loser to fulfilling a full roster meaning most of the weight classes.

[wrastle63]

8-man football has saved a lot of football "opportunities" to play

The only "opportunities" lost in wrestling are when teams are cut or co-oped.

Without 8-man football there would be a lot fewer high school football teams and a lot of kids that would not have had the chance to play football.

I am proponent of change in wrestling to prevent further loss of wrestling teams. To be honest I am not even worried about losing wrestlers.  We have to keep the teams and the coaches in budgets to even give wrestlers and opportunity to compete.

I do believe that it is harder for administrators to cut wrestling when teams have an easier chance to come loser to fulfilling a full roster meaning most of the weight classes.

Dear lord...... so your ok if we keep all the teams but go to 5 weight classes and our numbers drop by thousands? There are no "opportunities" lost in this situation. This is an awful take.

[factfinder]

8-man football has saved a lot of football "opportunities" to play

The only "opportunities" lost in wrestling are when teams are cut or co-oped. THEY ARE CO-OPING AT THE 8 MAN LEVEL, PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH!!

Without 8-man football there would be a lot fewer high school football teams and a lot of kids that would not have had the chance to play football. THEY WOULD NEED TO CO-OP.

I am proponent of change in wrestling to prevent further loss of wrestling teams. To be honest I am not even worried about losing wrestlers.  We have to keep the teams and the coaches in budgets to even give wrestlers and opportunity to compete.You are assuming that Co-oping would hurt opportunity's? that hasn't held true in other states. MN has co-oped 30+ teams in the past 20 years and participation numbers have held, and in some communities the numbers went up!





I do believe that it is harder for administrators to cut wrestling when teams have an easier chance to come loser to fulfilling a full roster meaning most of the weight classes.

[factfinder]

The data would support WI schools should consider CO-OPING as a possible solution before cutting weight classes.

Wisconsin ranks 41 out of 50 for the least amount of students per school with 290 students per school, the national average is 384 per "Public" school.
Wisconsin ranks 19th for total student body. (Actually real strong)
Wisconsin ranks 4th highest in the nation with 14% attending private schools.
With the high participation in private schools Wisconsin may have the smallest student enrollment per school in the nation.

Local comparison

             Total schools.       Free and reduced lunch.        students per school.       private school %.   teacher student ratio
IL.              4139.                    55%                                     373                               11%                   14:1

MI              3181                     49%                                     358                                8%                     16:1

WI             2378                      44%                                   (290)                                   14%                    14:1

MN            1982                       40%                                    335                                8%                      14:1

IA             1164                       44%                                    321                                9%                       14:1

No wonder WI taxes are so high!!!

It may be easier to make a varsity line up (for any sport) in WI than any other state in the nation based on the amount of schools per student body and moderate free and reduced %'s.

[DocWrestling]

So reducing to 12 weight classes is losing "opportunities" to wrestle because JV is not an "opportunity" but having teams co-op is not losing opportunities?

If two teams co-op that is losing 14 weight classes in I guess my distorted mind?

Co-ops lead to lost teams, lost wrestling rooms, and lost coaches.

[factfinder]

So reducing to 12 weight classes is losing "opportunities" to wrestle because JV is not an "opportunity" but having teams co-op is not losing opportunities?

If two teams co-op that is losing 14 weight classes in I guess my distorted mind?

Co-ops lead to lost teams, lost wrestling rooms, and lost coaches.

That hasn't held true!!
8/9 man football hasn't saved numbers in WI,MI or Il, but Co-oping in MN has help maintain total participation.
Cutting to 8/9 football did not stop co-oping, so they went from 11 to 8 and still ended up co-oping!!
I am also saying sports are not the priority, but I am suggesting some of these schools should co-op and or merge.
Cutting positions in wrestling or football is not going to solve small town schools from overall numbers steadily declining.

[DocWrestling]

Around and around we go!

First it was about varsity opportunities.  Now it is about "participation"?

Team A and Team B each have 14 varsity opportunities for a total of 28

Co-op A/B only has 14 weight varsity opportunities?  I thought you said varsity opportunities were the key to numbers of wrestlers participating?  How is participation staying the same with only 14 varsity spots between 2 high schools when if we decrease a high school by 2 weight classes it is going to hurt numbers?

[littleguy301]

Around and around we go!

First it was about varsity opportunities.  Now it is about "participation"?

Team A and Team B each have 14 varsity opportunities for a total of 28

Co-op A/B only has 14 weight varsity opportunities?  I thought you said varsity opportunities were the key to numbers of wrestlers participating?  How is participation staying the same with only 14 varsity spots between 2 high schools when if we decrease a high school by 2 weight classes it is going to hurt numbers?

I see what your saying and it is an around an around arguement. I think what these numbers are showing isnt a sports thing it is more of maybe schools should co-op instead. Less than 300 students a school is the average, man that is alot of small school that are costing the tax payer some serious money!

I like wrestling numbers in the past 20 years vs football numbers in the same time period.

Some co-op have worked real well over the years. Doc....would younrather have a co-op vs losing a program for good?

[factfinder]

Around and around we go!

First it was about varsity opportunities.  Now it is about "participation"?

Team A and Team B each have 14 varsity opportunities for a total of 28

Co-op A/B only has 14 weight varsity opportunities?  I thought you said varsity opportunities were the key to numbers of wrestlers participating?  How is participation staying the same with only 14 varsity spots between 2 high schools when if we decrease a high school by 2 weight classes it is going to hurt numbers?

Your not getting this! Dropping to 12 WILL NOT STOP the need to eventually Co-op for 80% of the schools struggling to get numbers.
That leaves you with 2 options.
Option A) 2 schools with 14 opportunities?
Option B) 2 schools with 12 opportunities?
Wisconsins small schools are declining in enrollment every year, But the overall student body is very strong do to new booming towns.
Small schools need to co-op or merge together! Wisconsin has more brick and mortar building per student than any state out there when you factor in privet schools. 
Cutting weight classes is similar to cutting off an arm to fix colon cancer.

I also understand your agenda is different then mine. I want to do what ever we need to do to provide opportunities for kids whether it's a co-op or not. You are motivated to keep teams and mascots in place over kids!!
This is the issue a lot of old timers have, they are choosing town pride over kids getting opportunities. They are not in tune with modern family's and the flexibility so many have these days to put their kids in the best situations.