WWCA meeting

[littleguy301]

Ok so in the past 20 years wrestling numbers are down like 1%. About the time they added the 14th weight class. In the same time frame football is down like 23%. 30k kids in 2001 and 24k in 2019. Wrestling is like 7300 in 2001 to a tick under 7k in 2019.

Wrestling was also up in 2009 so over a 20 year period wrestling has remained flat in numbers but football has taken a monster hit. Also those 2019 numbers are including 8 man.

So the fact is reducing numbers in football is not helping.

Npope I don't have 40 years ago numbers but I do believe their were more kids out 40 years ago but if you watch wrestling from back then I think you know why......

[factfinder]

The NFHS web site is only showing 20 year rolling numbers, so here is what I found so far, I will put out more data later.

2002 111,506 Total boys out for sports (not unique athletes, many are multi sport athletes)
            7,368 wrestlers
           30,548 Football

2019 104,711 total boys (-13%)
            6,669 wrestlers (-10%)
           23,754 Football (-22.3%) This includes 8 man numbers.


I just don't know if a -13% in total boys participation and wrestling down -10% is cause for a major change like cutting weight classes.  Wrestling is managing better then other sports, especially when you add in the addition of two winter sports like Boys hockey 2002 and Boys Volleyball 2009  (roughly 4000 boys between the two sports).

If you really wan't to "fix" boys wrestling addressing 106 & 113 weight classes is the key IMO. The fight should be adding JR Inclusion not cutting weight classes!!!!!
Everyone on this "old timer forum" agrees that MS wrestling is a major concern and we lose to many kids at that age. So why isn't anyone fighting for JR Inclusion?

[wrastle63]

The NFHS web site is only showing 20 year rolling numbers, so here is what I founds far, I will put out more data later.

2002 111,506 Total boys out for sports (not unique athletes, many are multi sport athletes)
            7,368 wrestlers
           30,548 Football

2019 104,711 total boys (-13%)
            6,669 wrestlers (-10%)
           23,754 Football (-22.3%) This includes 8 man numbers.


I just don't know if a -13% in total boys participation and wrestling down -10% is cause for a major change like cutting weight classes.  Wrestling is managing better then other sports, especially when you add in the addition of two winter sports like Boys hockey 2002 and Boys Volleyball 2009  (roughly 4000 boys between the two sports).

If you really wan't to "fix" boys wrestling addressing 106 & 113 weight classes is the key IMO. The fight should be adding JR Inclusion not cutting weight classes!!!!!
Everyone on this "old timer forum" agrees that MS wrestling is a major concern and we lose to many kids at that age. So why isn't anyone fighting for JR Inclusion?

JHI inclusion would solve a lot of the problems. 1. It would add smaller kids and fill in the 106-120 spots on teams which would reduce in less forfeits. 2. It would add more wrestlers to teams and that would increase your JV team size and would increase the number of JV opportunities for teams including competitions. 3. Would allow for the excellent MS kids to be challenged. 4. It would bring more eyes to the season as you would increase the number of wrestlers in the particular season and would get rid of the MS issue with some teams starting in November and some in January. 5. It would make duals more competitive. There have been many years where we have had a 100-120lb middle school kid who would beat our varsity kids handily. The problem is the WIAA won't do this because people are more focused on State seeding, super regional/sectionals, team duals to determine who goes to state, and cutting weight classes(which won't help anything).

[Handles II]

For those that have expressed concerns that the individual aspect is the most important, and if we remove a weight class or two to more closely fit the actual numbers of varsity participants per team, then hundreds of kids won't get to participate at state...
Why aren't you advocating to add another division or  two?  Several states have up to 6 divisions. That means hundreds more wrestlers get to participate in state. If this is about individuals getting their chance to shine, I'm surprised that this hasn't been brought up. Since it hasn't, then to all of you, why not?

It's been 20 years since we went to 14 weights (2002). Not 10 or so.  We've (WI) averaged about 10 varsity wrestlers per team for 80% of our teams for a decade or more. The NWCA has recognized this, the NFHS has recognized this here and in other states. My understanding is that the options to reduce weight classes ISN'T about an individual qualifying for state or not, it's about hopefully reducing forfeits and reducing teams being cut or co-oped.

                                     

[greysquirrelmobile]

OK-Here's my rant. 

14 weights is not about just creating more opportunities for pure numbers.  It is about creating an opportunity for people based on their current weight.  Yes, there will still be weight cutting (The U.S. is the 9th highest obese country in the world...so cutting might be relative...I digress), but it provides an opportunity for winter athletes that may not be a great fit for the other sports.  Many national wrestling sportscasters talk about the importance of the weight class 103 or 106 (David Taylor is one example among others).   For those coaching staffs who cannot fill 14 weights, then the focus is on the individual accomplishments.  The same is true in track and field or cross country.  We talk about watering down the sport with more weight classes, but aren't we really watering down our expectations?  Do we really think changing to fewer weight classes in high school will grow the sport?  So like in 10 years the sport will have more wrestlers because we switched from 14 weight classes to 12?   We must also face the fact that athletes with the most success at the next level have considerable investment of time and resources. 

I read a lot of people saying kids are soft compared to wrestling in its hay day.  That's not because we have 14 weight classes.  That's because many of us busted our humps to land where we have landed and want a better life for our kids.  Instead, they just have more stuff and not necessarily more happiness.  I read some of the posts and think that some are trying fix the current ills of society by reducing weight classes in wrestling.  I get that we want a better product, but at the end of the day there is still going to be one team state champion in each of the divisions.   It takes a lot of hard work and leadership to build a program (No matter what sport). The best programs go beyond what happens on the mat.  They have committed adults who like to work together.   They view it as civic and social.   It requires parent sacrifice, volunteer coaches, leadership, and social capital and buy-in from the participants.  They are inclusive and inviting.  It has nothing to do with the amount of weight classes.  They understand that kids need relationships and opportunities...not stuff.

Before considering any weight changes and taking opportunities away from HIGH SCHOOL students, we must answer these questions.

What is the purpose of high school wrestling?  (My answer: To create opportunities for students to apply athletic skills, practice leadership skills, build collaboration skills in an athletic context, and learn the value of high level physical activity).

What is the mission of high school wrestling?  (My answer:  To create more individuals who understand the meaning of being disciplined while understanding that being accountable to themselves makes those around them more successful.)

What is the vision for high school wrestling in Wisconsin? (My answer:  To grow the sport of wrestling so that non-wrestlers enjoy watching it and more athletes participate and become life-long supporters of wrestling, while providing an experience in wrestling that the student might not otherwise know).

What are the core values? (Hard work, discipline, sacrifice, competition, adversity, goal attainment, strength and agility development)

That data is good as it gets beyond the gut-feeling.    When making changes ask yourself?  What are we trying to change or the outcome we are trying to achieve.? (dependent variable).    Then what activities will make that change? (The independent variables)?  Then examine the relationships of those two.   These are leadership discussions. If our wrestling leaders aren't framing the conversation around focused outcomes then we are just engaging in activities or making changes and hoping for the best.

[hammer]

WOW! Like someone posted let's go to 6 classes and make numbers way less but have some seriously tough wrestling!

People, JHI is the answer to this 100% you fill up the 3 lowest weight classes in a click of the fingers! Also has anyone on this forum listened to any podcasts? Teague and Steve talked alot about depth and how good Wisconsin wrestling is

Go ahead and continue to want to cut weights, complain about singlets, weight plans and so on and over look the fact that through all of the adults complaining their is a rising amount of seriously talented Wisconsin wrestlers that have some how navigated all of the mess of this to become some of the top kids in the nation!

[npope]

Npope I don't have 40 years ago numbers but I do believe their were more kids out 40 years ago but if you watch wrestling from back then I think you know why......

Not sure what the implication is here littleguy, but I am sure it is wry 

Speaking of wry. I liken the current discussion with that of a great sippin' whiskey. It tastes great as it is, but the drinkers complain that it costs too much so the brewer adds water diluting it and is able to decrease the price. The drinkers no longer find the taste as palatable because it is diluted and they stop buying the product. The brewer is perplexed, as he gave them what they said they wanted - cheaper whiskey.

Go figger

[DocWrestling]

Football numbers have dropped quite a bit.  Thus WI has added 8-man football and it is growing greatly.

Basketball and other sports are also seeing drops and I would bet that there are fewer freshman teams right now than ever before.  Many schools have dropped paid coaches for freshman teams.  The other recent adaptation is we no longer have varsity, JV, and freshman teams.  We now have varsity, JV1, and JV2 teams.  This allows sophomores to participate on JV2 teams and still have opportunity to play.

[bigoil]

Wrestling has grown into new states as well so not a true comparison with football which has been played in all states for a long time.

example: I have no idea if La Crosse is growing or not, but it is in WI, that doesn't mean the sport is growing in it's base.

The South, Texas to the SouthEast has seen a growth in access to wrestling, I believe MS still does not have a state Championship (maybe not even sanctioned).

[hammer]

Football numbers have dropped quite a bit.  Thus WI has added 8-man football and it is growing greatly.

Basketball and other sports are also seeing drops and I would bet that there are fewer freshman teams right now than ever before.  Many schools have dropped paid coaches for freshman teams.  The other recent adaptation is we no longer have varsity, JV, and freshman teams.  We now have varsity, JV1, and JV2 teams.  This allows sophomores to participate on JV2 teams and still have opportunity to play.

I think the factfinder showed in the 2019 that he included the 8 man numbers. So Wisconsin looks to have dropped big time in football but ismstarting close to even in wrestling but everyone is up in arms about cutting weight classes. Go figure.

Npope I don't have 40 years ago numbers but I do believe their were more kids out 40 years ago but if you watch wrestling from back then I think you know why......

Not sure what the implication is here littleguy, but I am sure it is wry 

Speaking of wry. I liken the current discussion with that of a great sippin' whiskey. It tastes great as it is, but the drinkers complain that it costs too much so the brewer adds water diluting it and is able to decrease the price. The drinkers no longer find the taste as palatable because it is diluted and they stop buying the product. The brewer is perplexed, as he gave them what they said they wanted - cheaper whiskey.

Go figger

Yes that is about right but you have a choice as to quite drinking or drink the water down version. You cut weight classes your not getting them back, ever!

[hammer]

Wrestling has grown into new states as well so not a true comparison with football which has been played in all states for a long time.

example: I have no idea if La Crosse is growing or not, but it is in WI, that doesn't mean the sport is growing in it's base.

The South, Texas to the SouthEast has seen a growth in access to wrestling, I believe MS still does not have a state Championship (maybe not even sanctioned).

Your right the south has grown but the numbers that are being used are Wisconsin numbers. Sure the La Crosse area could be frowning and others are falling but the numbers are pretty close since they when to 14 weights so not sure why everyone is so testy. Complaining about a few % and missing out on great wrestling from kids from Wisconsin, pretty amazing if you ask me.

[factfinder]

Football numbers have dropped quite a bit.  Thus WI has added 8-man football and it is growing greatly.

Basketball and other sports are also seeing drops and I would bet that there are fewer freshman teams right now than ever before.  Many schools have dropped paid coaches for freshman teams.  The other recent adaptation is we no longer have varsity, JV, and freshman teams.  We now have varsity, JV1, and JV2 teams.  This allows sophomores to participate on JV2 teams and still have opportunity to play.

Doc,
I am not trying to be a jerk!!! I am sure you are a very nice guy and mean well.
But I would enjoy meeting you and learning where you get your information? 8 man football hasn't helped at all! there are already 8 man football teams Co-oped. The numbers I posted had no 8 man football teams in 2002 and the numbers were over 35,500, then they dropped mandatory 11 man teams and the numbers still dropped and teams are having to Co-op at the 8 man level already, those teams should have stayed 11 man and Co-oped sooner.
Football added smaller teams and the numbers dropped by (-22%) (41% worse then the state average)
Wrestling maintained 14 man teams and dropped (-10%) (23% better then the state average) I will take this option please!!!!!!!

[No one]

First post, so bear with me as I try and offer my thoughts.

It seems to me that people who love wrestling looking for ways to fix wrestling for those who do not love wrestling won't get us anywhere.  We can't really understand why someone would choose to leave something we care so deeply about.  As a result, we could never change it in a meaningful way (unless we just got lucky) to fix it for the next generation. We have opinions and thoughts as to why, but we have little if any data.  We aren't asking the people whose information we really need.

In an effort to get data, what if we had a standard approach to ask kids why they quit or choose a different sport? Not necessarily to convince them to return, but rather to impact the next generation of young wrestlers.  I certainly don't have the form, but if we started with a questionnaire of like 5 questions we could at least start to figure out the why.  If every coach had the same set of 5 questions we could look to see if there were any trends that we could address.  Each coach could then compile the results into a database of the larger state and see if we can find a trend and maybe even a solution.  We all see it through the lens of our own experiences, but a broader gaze might be needed. 

[ObsessedObserver]

Just an idea curious to hear people's thoughts what are people's thoughts on how NAIA runs their conference then national tournaments 10 weights but you can bring 4 extra guys at different weights. I'm not saying 10 but a lot of people seem really interested in cutting weight classes so what about 12 weight classes then when you get to the state tournament series teams that think they have two guys at the same weight get that opportunity to show that at the state level and they can follow eachother from regionals to the state finals. I really like this idea and would be cool to try it out

[littleguy301]

First post, so bear with me as I try and offer my thoughts.

It seems to me that people who love wrestling looking for ways to fix wrestling for those who do not love wrestling won't get us anywhere.  We can't really understand why someone would choose to leave something we care so deeply about.  As a result, we could never change it in a meaningful way (unless we just got lucky) to fix it for the next generation. We have opinions and thoughts as to why, but we have little if any data.  We aren't asking the people whose information we really need.

In an effort to get data, what if we had a standard approach to ask kids why they quit or choose a different sport? Not necessarily to convince them to return, but rather to impact the next generation of young wrestlers.  I certainly don't have the form, but if we started with a questionnaire of like 5 questions we could at least start to figure out the why.  If every coach had the same set of 5 questions we could look to see if there were any trends that we could address.  Each coach could then compile the results into a database of the larger state and see if we can find a trend and maybe even a solution.  We all see it through the lens of our own experiences, but a broader gaze might be needed.

Great thoughts and thinking.

I have asked kids that chose to not continue a sport and reasoning is all over the place. This isn't just wrestling either. Our school has been hit hard in football, falls in line with the data.

Time is one answer I hear some, the sport just isn't fun is the other answer that rears it ugly head. I think as a coach we.need to.listen to those comments amoung many others and adjust coaching to meet those also.

Not a rant but I blame myself for kids not going out. Did I ask to much and there also needs to be a level of fun in the sport. Coaches need to also look at dropping numbers and think what they can do to improve before saying the dreaded word cut.