WWCA meeting

Started by Redeemer, March 31, 2022, 09:19:07 AM

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Ghetto

Quote from: Numbers on April 05, 2022, 11:07:54 PM
The discussion should be about moving to 12 weights.

If a team has 2 varsity caliber kids at a weight (or two), the coach has the option to find tournaments that will allow multiple entries.  Tournaments will adjust.  Life will be fine and wrestling will move forward. 

The idea of having JV duals instead of just JV matches is a bonus.

Almost every tournament, minus the big holiday tournaments that we go to allow for more than one kid per weight. It's not hard to find.
As long as we are keeping score, I've got something to prove

tigerking

Quote from: Ghetto on April 06, 2022, 10:08:19 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on April 06, 2022, 08:10:32 AM
Still hasn't been addressed, but why do we have to reduce weight classes for individual tournaments like the state series. Would allow for individuals to compete at their best weight class and also create better duals. I am all in favor of reducing weight classes for duals. IMO go to 12 weight classes for duals and get rid of 106 and 195 based on the data that has been presented. If there are good 106s or 195s they can wrestle up to 113 or 220(which both had lower % of wrestlers as well). Everything else is exactly the same.

I would be all in for 14 weights for the state tournament series. 12 for the season.

With the data in trackwrestling, it would be easy to see if a kid could make 106 or whatever weight. Keep it simple. No weight allowance. Or just call the weights 109, etc. for regionals.

Love that idea.

Would the team tournament series be 12 or 14 weights?

Ghetto

#47
Quote from: tigerking on April 06, 2022, 10:30:01 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on April 06, 2022, 10:08:19 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on April 06, 2022, 08:10:32 AM
Still hasn't been addressed, but why do we have to reduce weight classes for individual tournaments like the state series. Would allow for individuals to compete at their best weight class and also create better duals. I am all in favor of reducing weight classes for duals. IMO go to 12 weight classes for duals and get rid of 106 and 195 based on the data that has been presented. If there are good 106s or 195s they can wrestle up to 113 or 220(which both had lower % of wrestlers as well). Everything else is exactly the same.


With the data in trackwrestling, it would be easy to see if a kid could make 106 or whatever weight. Keep it simple. No weight allowance. Or just call the weights 109, etc. for regionals.

Love that idea.

Would the team tournament series be 12 or 14 weights?

I feel like it would be 12. Stay consistent with the dual season. That would probably have to be coincide with a different way of qualifying for team state though.
As long as we are keeping score, I've got something to prove

DocWrestling

Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.
Of Course, this is only my opinion and no one elses!

littleguy301

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 09, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.

Ok doc, woke up tonight couldn't sleep and decide to check out the forum

First I was peeved off but after re reading you make some serious points but in a round about way.

While I have never met you I would guess we run in the same age bracket....maybe. back in the day I remember making weight in middle school but having 20 plus weight classes which were full minus maybe a big heavy and the smallest weight.

You made one of the best points to keep weight classes I have ever read on this forum bar none. If you had 18 weights classes you would still have great matches. That is the bottom line, we want great wrestling at the end of the year and we are getting it!

I am notmdighting for 18 weight classes I am fighting to keep what we have!

Cutting weights will not grow wrestling might make some better overall wrestling but will not increase numbers PERIOD! Less chances less kids is the bottom line sorry but it is.

Ok so looking state wide I totally get that something needs to change. I would like to see options for schoolsmto chose them. Many people have really good thoughts of 12 team, 14 individuals and many other choices I like that option alot and let each school figure that out not punish certain schools that for what ever reason gets all the kids out, fund raise, recruit or what ever. Let school with less numbers navigate their own path with what they have.

Pay coaches more may help alot also, with schoolmbugets that is going to be difficult but getting a year around coach is a monster deal in alot of places. I agree not having jv coaches hurt but maybe fund raise for one or at less look into trying to fund another coach on staff. Some times just asking is a great start.

I look on the forum and see coaching jobs posted all the time. Good and bad if you ask me. Great there is an opportunity to coach but why is one leaving.

I like your starting time....though letting clubs run the other time becomes a slippery slope. How much do you want the clubs to run the show, before we know it wrestling has become a club sport and.......clubs are great but lots to think of.

m
If life is tough,,,,wear a helmet

factfinder

#50
Quote from: DocWrestling on April 09, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.
I don't understand your logic on how 11 weight classes helps the team concept? It will make the the gap between the good teams and the developmental teams even bigger!! My son is on one of the best public schools teams in the Mid West and if we only had 12 weight classes we would never have a hole in the line up. We would also lose our multi sport athletes, we typically only have 4 spots open for none year round wrestlers, This will make the power teams untouchable!!
>This is an individual sport!! We keep team score at individual tournaments.
>The best wrestlers are typically practicing with partners out side of their HS room, so good partners are not even as important as they once were.
>At the highest level's in this sport there is Zero focus on team.
>The best teams in Wisconsin make team state based on how they do at an individual regional tournament.
>What does 14 weight classes hurt? There are much bigger hurdles in improving the sport before cutting should even be on the table. Statistically the first weight classes that should be cut are 106 and 113 do to the fact that they have the lowest numbers nationally. I PERSONALLY DON'T KNOW ANYONE that thinks that is a good idea?? What weight classes do you cut based on facts? 106 and 113 are the most FF weights so do we do this based on facts or emotion?
Duals are fun but not as important as individual success in the sport, but if you want duals to be more competitive change the scoring mechanism to the same way we score freestyle duals.
With the elimination of 7 and 7 there is nothing that stops a coach for lining up competition with similar teams, its not hard to line up quads with other teams that have a full roster or teams with out a full line up, its being done in other states. Coaches can agree at duals to not put out 14 right now, there is nothing that stop two coaches saying lets line up are teams other then the most over the top decent plan in the nation!!! No state enforces the decent plan the way the WIAA does! how many FF are do to the fact the decent plan prohibits coaches from putting out a full line up? I would say getting rid of the way WIAA does the decent plan Is the first step in fixing the "team concept", then if that doesn't help you can look to eliminate weight classes. We all know cutting weight classes will not help with JV depth so let's be honest, if you cut weights you will cut kids at that size.
I personally have no issue with kids being on varsity that are not hammers, we only notice this because its an individual sport. Every Football team has guys on varsity that are a liability, that's what's great about HS sports, it a developmental age.

Question? How do we know that having 14 weight classes hasn't helped with numbers over the years by making it easier to make varsity? If the NFHS would have never gone to 14 weight classes you could make an argument the numbers could even be worse??? Thoughts?


MNbadger

Do you think this is true: " We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. "
Actually wrestling has stayed steady as the fifth most popular sport for boys for at least thirty or forty years.  As I remember, the upper weights were added with the belief that it would get more football players to participate. 
The reality is participation is down in most sports.  I do not believe contraction will help our sport.  Less is less no matter how you slice it.  Wrestling overall is better, higher quality (probably true in all sports in fact).  I am firmly against retraction and I am a t a school where we do not have a full line up at this time.  Wrestling is first and foremost an individual sport.  I am of the opinion that if we retract, our numbers overall will actually decline.
Wrestling numbers have sta"
Quote from: Handles II on April 01, 2022, 10:01:09 AM
We were told that adding
Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

npope

#52
Is it possible that participation in the sport should be more broadly defined than merely recognizing those who participate at the varsity level, e.g., more opportunities for wrestlers to compete in the end of the season tournaments? Is it possible that the problem lays not at the highly visible varsity level but instead, at the grass roots level, at the kids' wrestling level? I'm not saying it does but rather, think widely and outside of the obvious box. Maybe its the feeder system that is crimping the system? Kids wrestling exploded onto the scene in the 1970s - is it still functioning on the same level these days? I don't know the answer to that, but maybe folks need to redefine the problem in order to see the problem. Just a thought.
Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

Nat Pope

ChargerDad

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 09, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
Best system is likely a compromise with 11 or 12 weight classes for duals and 14 for tournaments.

There is a ton of great wrestling at end of sectionals and at state.  Nobody will debate that.  If you had 18 weight classes you would still have that.

I personally 11 or 12 weight classes will help the sport by greatly improving the team concept at both varsity and JV levels.  When wrestling was huge in our community we had weight classes and duals in middle school.  It was always about the team and not the individuals

Those that don't want to cut weight classes have your reasons but based on your reasons some of you should be fighting for 18 weight classes so more kids have the opportunity to wrestle varsity and more kids can wrestle at state and sectionals.  If you think that will help numbers then fight for that change and nobody knows but maybe you are right.

But anyone that thinks the status quo is working has their head buried in the sand or is lost in the their local community and does not see the big picture for the sport and what is happening in so many other districts.

And better coaches and more involved coaches is not the solution.  Why is that?  Because while programs have not been cut, the number of paid coaches has dropped dramatically over the years with fewer wrestlers and fewer "teams" and more "individuals".  Many schools still have a program but they don't even have a paid JV coach.  Add that to fewer teachers willing to put up with the hassles of parents and coaching. Have to fix the system to make it easier on coaches and draw more of them in.   First thing I would do is start the season after Thanksgiving and create a dead period over the holidays.  Let the clubs have November and they can run open tournaments over the Holiday dead period.

How do you propose to manage different weight classes for duals and tournaments??  The only way it would make any sense at all would be to just straight chop 2 of the existing weight classes out to get to 12 (113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 220, 285) when that probably isn't the best choice of 12 weight classes to have the greatest reduction in forfeits.  Let's just say for sake of argument that after analyzing the data, the optimal weight classes are say 115, 122, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 205, and 285.  Why would we want to hold on to 12 of the old weight classes just to have 14 in tournaments if that is the case.  Another complexity no matter how you do it..  12 weight classes for conference duals, 14 for conference tournament?  I know some want to get rid of the conference tournament, but I don't see that happening.   14 weight classes for regionals, 12 for team sectionals??   It's already deemed unfair by many to determine regional team champ at the individual tourney, then you add in the fact that 2 weight classes that aren't even wrestled at team sectionals are used to determine the regional team champ.   Different weight classes for duals and tournaments is a mess IMO.

Myself, I'm not even sure cutting weight classes is going to accomplish what people want to.  I guess first, we have to clearly define the goal of cutting weight classes, analyze proposed solutions for how effectively they would achieve that goal, and then determine if the cost (loss of matches) is worth those results.  If the goal is to reduce forfeits, and we run the numbers based on the optimal weight classes whatever they project to be, and state wide we project to average 1.5 fewer matches per dual with 0.75 fewer forfeits, is that worth it??

DocWrestling

The sport as is right now works very well for the top 20% teams and the top 20% individuals and always has.  The other 80% is why things need to be changed.  That 80% is where we are seeing declining participation.

We once had fewer weight classes and one division and old timers will tell you we had more wrestlers.

My teammates and I had so much pride in wrestling because we knew it was the most demanding sport and had the toughest practices.  We wrestled at our junior high duals for 9th grade since our high school was only 10-12.  Then we wrestled JV as sophomores because we were not good enough.  We battled for our teams in junior high and JV duals that also had full weight classes.  When we finally earned that varsity spot we were so proud and most of us went from sophomore JV's to conference champs as juniors or seniors. 

Now we make practices easy to keep numbers.  Now we hand out varsity spots like candy because that is what keeps kids involved.  Now we also somehow have to wrestle 50+ matches when 35 used to be a lot. It was not all good back then.  We used to cut a ton of weight and did it in a lot of bad ways.

The system has changed since then.  Is that the cause for issues now?  Is it that the kids have changed?

Personally I think the reason for lower participation is because middle school and JV system is so messed up.  Kids want to be varsity because then things are different.  That is the only place you get to wrestle a dual.  Kids start in 3rd grade and nothing changes in middle school or JV.  Match up some kids similar in weight into 4-man round robins. 

We care also lacking in people willing to coach at all levels. Heck, just like wrestlers all coaches want to be on the varsity staff rather than coach middle school or JV  You want better numbers for your varsity team well then you need your best coaches at the middle school and JV level

I had a lot of success as a wrestler and getting your hand raised is the ultimate reward for that hard work.  My best memories are about my teammates that worked hard but seldom got their hand raised.  We loved the team concept in duals because they wrestlers would go out there and battle to not get pinned or  not get majored.  we had a junior high heavy weight that got pinned 80% of the time and I don't remember him ever winning.  But he battled every dual and our whole team would go wild and he would have the biggest smile if he did not get pinned and saved us those team points.  If we had no duals back then in junior high or JV so many kids would have quit before they even had a chance to become better.

Getting rid of wrestling conference would also be great thing as far as duals.  Let the best teams set up duals against the best teams and the middle talented teams do the same.  Would be better for all.  We dominated our conference and when my teammates get together we only talk about our two non-conference duals we would wrestle that would be intense and in packed gyms.
Of Course, this is only my opinion and no one elses!

Redeemer

Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

npope

Quote from: Redeemer on April 10, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

But wasn't it about ten years ago they moved from 12 to 14 weights and has the situation improved? Numbers up? Popularity up? You denigrate those who want to cut weights and prophesize "failure." If so, then what have we got now?

The truth is that since wrestling's hey-day about 20-40 years ago kids and society have changed. Personally, I think grit has lost its cachet with the youth of today and that is what wrestling actually had to sell - not unlike boxing in its prime, and now...it is reduced to a side show with a bunch of no-names. And I think the powers-that-be recognize this reality, but are afraid to tell the emperor that he wears no clothes. Instead, they tweak this, water down that, etc., until everyone's a "champ." And that reality is readily recognizable by participants and over time, the sport loses its luster in its ability to create character and reward grit; without that, what value does it have? The journey for the "real" champs has been diluted to the point where they too lose that incredible sense of pride in their accomplishments - knowing that they did indeed "climb a mountain." Gentlemen, this issue is far bigger than dithering over adding/deleting a couple of weights; the sport is being neutered while we sit around pondering whether to add or delete a weight, as if that is going to change the value system of today's youth. We are shooting wide of the barn.
Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

Nat Pope

littleguy301

Quote from: npope on April 10, 2022, 07:50:01 PM
Quote from: Redeemer on April 10, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

But wasn't it about ten years ago they moved from 12 to 14 weights and has the situation improved? Numbers up? Popularity up? You denigrate those who want to cut weights and prophesize "failure." If so, then what have we got now?

The truth is that since wrestling's hey-day about 20-40 years ago kids and society have changed. Personally, I think grit has lost its cachet with the youth of today and that is what wrestling actually had to sell - not unlike boxing in its prime, and now...it is reduced to a side show with a bunch of no-names. And I think the powers-that-be recognize this reality, but are afraid to tell the emperor that he wears no clothes. Instead, they tweak this, water down that, etc., until everyone's a "champ." And that reality is readily recognizable by participants and over time, the sport loses its luster in its ability to create character and reward grit; without that, what value does it have? The journey for the "real" champs has been diluted to the point where they too lose that incredible sense of pride in their accomplishments - knowing that they did indeed "climb a mountain." Gentlemen, this issue is far bigger than dithering over adding/deleting a couple of weights; the sport is being neutered while we sit around pondering whether to add or delete a weight, as if that is going to change the value system of today's youth. We are shooting wide of the barn.

I think he was getting at 10 from.now.

It has.been posted that most sports have dropping numbers and wrestling is actually holding pretty steady in number yet many are wanting to push the panic button and cut weights.

We have big numbers drop in the youth for various sports in my district but yet the basketball team isn't dropping to 4 spots on the court why should wrestling?

Tennis looking into going to 3 and 2 meaning 3 singles and 2 doubles team but at this point they are still going with 4 singles and 3 doubles even though teams may forfeit one or the other. Tennis doesn't want to punish teams that have kids so most adjust to fit their needs like tournaments.
If life is tough,,,,wear a helmet

littleguy301

Quote from: DocWrestling on April 10, 2022, 06:41:13 PM
The sport as is right now works very well for the top 20% teams and the top 20% individuals and always has.  The other 80% is why things need to be changed.  That 80% is where we are seeing declining participation.

We once had fewer weight classes and one division and old timers will tell you we had more wrestlers.

My teammates and I had so much pride in wrestling because we knew it was the most demanding sport and had the toughest practices.  We wrestled at our junior high duals for 9th grade since our high school was only 10-12.  Then we wrestled JV as sophomores because we were not good enough.  We battled for our teams in junior high and JV duals that also had full weight classes.  When we finally earned that varsity spot we were so proud and most of us went from sophomore JV's to conference champs as juniors or seniors. 

Now we make practices easy to keep numbers.  Now we hand out varsity spots like candy because that is what keeps kids involved.  Now we also somehow have to wrestle 50+ matches when 35 used to be a lot. It was not all good back then.  We used to cut a ton of weight and did it in a lot of bad ways.

The system has changed since then.  Is that the cause for issues now?  Is it that the kids have changed?

Personally I think the reason for lower participation is because middle school and JV system is so messed up.  Kids want to be varsity because then things are different.  That is the only place you get to wrestle a dual.  Kids start in 3rd grade and nothing changes in middle school or JV.  Match up some kids similar in weight into 4-man round robins. 

We care also lacking in people willing to coach at all levels. Heck, just like wrestlers all coaches want to be on the varsity staff rather than coach middle school or JV  You want better numbers for your varsity team well then you need your best coaches at the middle school and JV level

I had a lot of success as a wrestler and getting your hand raised is the ultimate reward for that hard work.  My best memories are about my teammates that worked hard but seldom got their hand raised.  We loved the team concept in duals because they wrestlers would go out there and battle to not get pinned or  not get majored.  we had a junior high heavy weight that got pinned 80% of the time and I don't remember him ever winning.  But he battled every dual and our whole team would go wild and he would have the biggest smile if he did not get pinned and saved us those team points.  If we had no duals back then in junior high or JV so many kids would have quit before they even had a chance to become better.

Getting rid of wrestling conference would also be great thing as far as duals.  Let the best teams set up duals against the best teams and the middle talented teams do the same.  Would be better for all.  We dominated our conference and when my teammates get together we only talk about our two non-conference duals we would wrestle that would be intense and in packed gyms.

Ok now we are using 20% i thought it was like 33% or higher.

Haven't seen the final data but I thought about 40% of teams had 14 wrestlers at regionals. So we are getting to close to half.

Like I said go 2 divisions one with 14 and 1 with less.

For all that want less and talk about going to college like weights why not go to the Olympic weights with 6. Image the competition with just 6 weights! Certainly will not.have numbers but those that stick it out are going to be incredible!
If life is tough,,,,wear a helmet

dman

Quote from: npope on April 10, 2022, 07:50:01 PM
Quote from: Redeemer on April 10, 2022, 06:47:58 PM
Cutting weight classes won't solve a thing. Retraction will not help. If you guys want to test out your theory, go ahead. Ten years later you may learn.

There are a high number of quality wrestlers at each weight class, so some people need to quit drinking this Kool-Aid of cutting out a lower weight and an upper weight.

But wasn't it about ten years ago they moved from 12 to 14 weights and has the situation improved? Numbers up? Popularity up? You denigrate those who want to cut weights and prophesize "failure." If so, then what have we got now?

The truth is that since wrestling's hey-day about 20-40 years ago kids and society have changed. Personally, I think grit has lost its cachet with the youth of today and that is what wrestling actually had to sell - not unlike boxing in its prime, and now...it is reduced to a side show with a bunch of no-names. And I think the powers-that-be recognize this reality, but are afraid to tell the emperor that he wears no clothes. Instead, they tweak this, water down that, etc., until everyone's a "champ." And that reality is readily recognizable by participants and over time, the sport loses its luster in its ability to create character and reward grit; without that, what value does it have? The journey for the "real" champs has been diluted to the point where they too lose that incredible sense of pride in their accomplishments - knowing that they did indeed "climb a mountain." Gentlemen, this issue is far bigger than dithering over adding/deleting a couple of weights; the sport is being neutered while we sit around pondering whether to add or delete a weight, as if that is going to change the value system of today's youth. We are shooting wide of the barn.

+10000 npope!!