WWCA meeting

[crossface21]

If we can get double elimination, equal representation for all divisions, and girls wrestling, I'm all for having 8 mats. As long as the tournament still lasts 3 days. I don't think anyone wants anything to do with shortening the tournament. In fact, I say lengthen it out to 4 days

[Handles II]

We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

[wrastle63]

We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

You can't prove that its causation, but I have to prove that it isn't LOL.  There are a big number of factors that go into sport participation. Dropping the weight classes to 10, 11, 12, or 13 isn't going to jump participation numbers up magically. You still won't and haven't addressed the dual vs tournament aspect and think it is a one sized all cut weight classes and we will have a better product. Most teams view wrestling as in individual sport first. In HS, College, and World level the focus is on individuals and tournaments not duals.

[MNbadger]

The football coach puts the best quarterback out there whether a freshman or any other grade.

We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

[Handles II]

We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

You can't prove that its causation, but I have to prove that it isn't LOL.  There are a big number of factors that go into sport participation. Dropping the weight classes to 10, 11, 12, or 13 isn't going to jump participation numbers up magically. You still won't and haven't addressed the dual vs tournament aspect and think it is a one sized all cut weight classes and we will have a better product. Most teams view wrestling as in individual sport first. In HS, College, and World level the focus is on individuals and tournaments not duals.

It's interesting how you said most "teams" view it as an individual sport first. By definition, that's not a "team". I would say that the majority of coaches want a strong team, that's at both the Varsity and JV levels whenever possible. Those coaches that focus on a few individuals usually do not stay around very long.   

[wrastle63]

We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

You can't prove that its causation, but I have to prove that it isn't LOL.  There are a big number of factors that go into sport participation. Dropping the weight classes to 10, 11, 12, or 13 isn't going to jump participation numbers up magically. You still won't and haven't addressed the dual vs tournament aspect and think it is a one sized all cut weight classes and we will have a better product. Most teams view wrestling as in individual sport first. In HS, College, and World level the focus is on individuals and tournaments not duals.

It's interesting how you said most "teams" view it as an individual sport first. By definition, that's not a "team". I would say that the majority of coaches want a strong team, that's at both the Varsity and JV levels whenever possible. Those coaches that focus on a few individuals usually do not stay around very long.

LOL.... You just keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. Also still didn't address the dual vs individual aspect of the sport.

[LaValle]

Not if you are a division 1 or 2 HS football team and any good.  As a Frosh more than likely does not even suit for varsity.

The football coach puts the best quarterback out there whether a freshman or any other grade.

We were told that adding weight classes would grow the sport. The opposite occurred. 

Kids not ready for varsity were filling varsity spots. Retention of athletes was reduced vs when athletes went through the JV experience, creating more holes in the line ups.

Statewide we have an average of 10 wrestlers per varsity team. This has been the documented trend for the past 6 years. Fewer than 20% of teams in the state fill all 14 weight classes regularly.

The NWCA and NFHS wrestling representatives have been pushing for and the NFHS has granted the option of reducing weight classes in the future in every state. Avoiding co-ops and cutting of programs are key reasons. Both of these actually reduce opportunities for to be a participant on a wrestling team. Wrestling on JV rather than on Varsity does NOT reduce opportunities to be on a team.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

If we do the opposite it doesn't 100% mean we will grow the sport like you propose. Also wrestling on JV does reduce your opportunity. Most JV kids get significantly less matches, tournaments, etc than Varisty level kids. Reducing the number of weight classes does 100% reduce opportunities at the conference, regional, sectional, and state tournaments. Reducing weight classes for duals is probably a good idea go down to 12 or 13 as it would make for a better product, but hurts  in tournaments and the state series. Cut 106 and either 195 or 220(I believe those were lower according to your data) for ONLY duals and keep it the same.

I guess if you can show that it's only correlation, that's fine. Nationwide, youth and middle school numbers are up. High School numbers began their quickest drop after going to 14 weights, as did a drop in numbers of individual schools having wrestling. More co-ops occurred shortly after going to 14 weights. There's at least some causation there.  Co-ops and dropped programs are lost opportunities to participate both at the JV and Varsity levels.  That's undeniable.  Two teams = 28 varsity spots and 28 JV spots. Two teams co-oped = 14 varsity spots and 14 JV spots.  Two teams dropped = 0.
Additionally, coaches were willing to try going to 14 weights to see if it would work. It hasn't. Why not be willing to try to see if fewer weights improves the product? I'm also not sure when people, like yourself, started to think that a spot on varsity became the best/only way to gain experience in this sport. So what if a kid doesn't get to wrestle at Regionals or Conf. If they can't beat the guys at their potential weight classes, then they simply aren't going to wrestle at those events anyway, 14 weights or not. And if they are simply "getting" a spot without being ready, it doesn't mean that it's good for them.  It's pretty rare that a head FB coach puts a freshman at varsity QB, even if they can accurately pass the ball. Why are wrestling fans all of a sudden thinking that a wrestler can't learn and grow in the sport unless they get a varsity spot?

[Redeemer]

The majority of teams have team atmosphere but they don't set lofty goals as they have only 10 or less wrestlers, with the majority of them not blessed with talent. That simple.

I'm glad to see them compete at individual state at whichever weight they choose when they have the talent.

[Ghetto]

Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

[tigerking]

Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

My honest opinion is the less starting spots available, the less kids that will go out for that sport.

[hammer]

Is this the same organization that they had a petition to not pay dues until their voices were heard? I guess all problems have blown over.

[hammer]

Sorry. I can't stop myself.

We don't know what will happen when we drop a weight class. What we do know is that with 14 weight classes, over 70% of the teams don't fill a lineup. This is consistent over the past 15 years and the numbers are very slowly trending towards more teams not filling the lineup, not less.

Why wouldn't we try something different? Is going to 13 weights going to make the sport worse? Again, we don't know. Maybe that one kid stays at his home program, or that kid who was forced into the lineup gets to wrestle JV and doesn't quit, or a myriad of things. It's time to try something different rather than doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Ok, is Wisconsin forfeiting weights at sections and at state? I looked and saw 42 individual champs at state and it seem to me that all the brackets were full. So why do you want to cut weight class? Looks like cutting just one weight class you eliminated 40 kids from having a chance to win a state title or even place. Cut 2 weights that would be 80 and 3 weights 120 kids. Where do you want to stop. I believe in Wisconsin you have a JV state also I was told those were 24 person brackets. Sounds like alot of chances maybe eliminated. I dont have the answers but to me taking away chance of kids to get to state doesnt sound like a good idea overall. Wrestling is a sport you may get to wrestle back to a place after a loss. Alot of sports dont get that chance. I understand the not filling line ups but overall taking away chances isnt a sure fire answer either.

[factfinder]

I love how this thread talks about doing what ever it takes to grow women's wrestling and how to cut mens wrestling in the same thread!!!
Wrestling is an Individual Sport, duals are fun but know one cares what a teams dual record is!!!
It's all about individual state, NCAA AA, World Medals and Olympic medals.
The best way to support your team in wrestling is to focus on yourself and score points all by yourself. Partners are great but there are a lot of Elite level guys on HS team without quality partners or coaches thanks to private clubs.
Keep 14 weight classes!!

[DocWrestling]

Schools do not support "individual" sports very well.  There is a reason why there are a lot fewer gymnastics teams, tennis teams, swim teams, track teams, golf teams, etc.  Schools are not going to pay for coaches for an "individual" sport or might possibly pay for one coach.

For school budgets it will continue to be a numbers game and financial one. Wrestling continues to move from a team bus to a van of a few athletes going to a tournament.

It is only an individual sport for the very best wrestlers.  The other 80% wrestlers are there to be a part of the team.  A team sport to spend some time with friends and try and contribute in some way to the team.  These 80% are the ones that spend there entire Saturdays at tournaments and never place.

[Handles II]

Schools do not support "individual" sports very well.  There is a reason why there are a lot fewer gymnastics teams, tennis teams, swim teams, track teams, golf teams, etc.  Schools are not going to pay for coaches for an "individual" sport or might possibly pay for one coach.

For school budgets it will continue to be a numbers game and financial one. Wrestling continues to move from a team bus to a van of a few athletes going to a tournament.

It is only an individual sport for the very best wrestlers.  The other 80% wrestlers are there to be a part of the team.  A team sport to spend some time with friends and try and contribute in some way to the team.  These 80% are the ones that spend there entire Saturdays at tournaments and never place.

Yes, we have seen examples of this even within the same school districts, where school A has a "team" focus and school B has an "individual" focus. The team B type schools have lost their programs or needed to be co-oped with team A or team C from the same district.  Unfortunately once a team is cut/co-oped, rarely does it ever return at the original school.