Officiating crew

dman · February 28, 2022, 07:29:51 AM

I respect the JOB that refs do, but never understood why people think the refs should be allowed to do a crappy JOB without criticism?? They are PAID employees that should, and need to be held to a standard. If they aren't doing their job well they absolutely should be criticized. Especially in the State tournament...coaches should demand the best refs work the biggest high school wrestling event in the State.

MatScoutWillie · February 28, 2022, 07:37:51 AM

Some officials were great this weekend. Some were horrible. The horrible ones should not come back next year. Get rid of the good ol' boys club and get the best refs at state. Pretty simple.

Handles II · February 28, 2022, 08:23:34 AM

Sounds like we have several people on this site that could do a better job. Please go through the process and start reffing. You will make a positive contribution to the sport. And, as someone stated, you will be paid to do it. I can't imagine why the complainers on here now (and every year) haven't already filled the shoes of our retired officials?
Yep, the sport is losing officials faster than they can be replaced. You are fully welcome to be the change you want to happen.

dman · February 28, 2022, 08:58:09 AM

Quote from: Handles II on February 28, 2022, 08:23:34 AM
Sounds like we have several people on this site that could do a better job. Please go through the process and start reffing. You will make a positive contribution to the sport. And, as someone stated, you will be paid to do it. I can't imagine why the complainers on here now (and every year) haven't already filled the shoes of our retired officials?
Yep, the sport is losing officials faster than they can be replaced. You are fully welcome to be the change you want to happen.

To bad you don't understand the point. And funny part is the people that you call "complainers" probably have contributed more to the sport than you ever have or will. And so sorry if you are ref and are hurt by people/coaches wanting the best ref's at the state tournament, and when they aren't the best and screw up on basic aspects of the job they are and should be criticized. Sorry your fragile ego can't take it.

DocWrestling · February 28, 2022, 09:28:24 AM

Dman,

I don't think you understand the shortage of officials problem. If you say that all the best of the best were not down at state I can take your word for it. But I also have to assume that the ones down there are part of the best and most experienced. You can maybe criticize the process if you know what that is but you cannot criticize officials. If you are not happy with the refs at state then you are unhappy with at least 80% of the officials in the state since I am sure the officials at state are in the top 20% and probably higher.

We are in dire need of officials. Honestly the biggest change in wrestling coming up could be getting rid of regionals simply because there are not enough officials to cover all those events. If you are not happy with officials at state I cannot imagine your complaining at sectionals where they were worse as a whole and then at regionals where they were even worse based on ratings by coaches.

dman · February 28, 2022, 09:46:48 AM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 28, 2022, 09:28:24 AM
Dman,

I don't think you understand the shortage of officials problem. If you say that all the best of the best were not down at state I can take your word for it. But I also have to assume that the ones down there are part of the best and most experienced. You can maybe criticize the process if you know what that is but you cannot criticize officials. If you are not happy with the refs at state then you are unhappy with at least 80% of the officials in the state since I am sure the officials at state are in the top 20% and probably higher.

We are in dire need of officials. Honestly the biggest change in wrestling coming up could be getting rid of regionals simply because there are not enough officials to cover all those events. If you are not happy with officials at state I cannot imagine your complaining at sectionals where they were worse as a whole and then at regionals where they were even worse based on ratings by coaches.

Doc, maybe other people don't do this but I separate the two issues here. I understand and sympathize about the shortage of refs...I truly do and understand the impact of said shortages. I am all in favor of addressing that issues and making positive moves forward. However, who, and how the ref's are chosen to ref at the state tournament is a separate issue in my opinion. The problem is how the ref's are chosen and thus not ALL of the best are there. And those that are there should be able to understand the basic aspects of the rules and understand current wrestling, and if they don't, I personally don't think they get a pass. It is the biggest stage for high school wrestling in our state and we should demand kids dreams aren't taken from them because of poor officials...notice I said poor officials, not poor officiating. As that can happen even from the best ref's out there. I understand we are humans and humans make mistakes but there is a big difference between a good official making a mistake and a poor official. And my final point is I will never think the answer to a shortage on refs is to decrease the expectations of refs and treat them like delicate little flowers. It's like being a coach, I expect that I will get criticized by over zealous parents to a certain point no matter what I do, and that doesn't impact my decision to be a coach, just as a ref should have certain understanding that they are going to get criticized when they make a bad call.

SP · February 28, 2022, 09:50:18 AM

I don't think everyone that has issues with some poor calls needs to now become a ref. I also feel that some calls were really bad and they had a direct impact on the outcome of matches. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best refs at state.

I would want to make sure that am doing the best job possible for the kids. I am also aware that everyone makes mistakes and we will never have a state meet that everyone walks away felling that the refs did not make any mistakes. With the technology we now have, I would want to see myself in action and try to understand what a coach is saying. Many officials ask coaches about tough calls and want to know their perspective. Some just look at coaches like they don't know a thing. The same officials that talk to coaches are most often the ones that admit they may have missed a call. Coaches can't expect 100% accuracy and most don't. The state meet magnifies these mistakes. I wish they had a system that coaches could send .arches to for evaluation. Refs could say yes or no to aging their matches viewed. I know I would want mine viewed by my peers so I could see my mistakes and learn to be better. They can also see what they are doing right and get positive feedback as well. Sometimes coaches and fans are wrong!

dman · February 28, 2022, 09:56:58 AM

Quote from: SP on February 28, 2022, 09:50:18 AM
I don't think everyone that has issues with some poor calls needs to now become a ref. I also feel that some calls were really bad and they had a direct impact on the outcome of matches. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best refs at state.

I would want to make sure that am doing the best job possible for the kids. I am also aware that everyone makes mistakes and we will never have a state meet that everyone walks away felling that the refs did not make any mistakes. With the technology we now have, I would want to see myself in action and try to understand what a coach is saying. Many officials ask coaches about tough calls and want to know their perspective. Some just look at coaches like they don't know a thing. The same officials that talk to coaches are most often the ones that admit they may have missed a call. Coaches can't expect 100% accuracy and most don't. The state meet magnifies these mistakes. I wish they had a system that coaches could send .arches to for evaluation. Refs could say yes or no to aging their matches viewed. I know I would want mine viewed by my peers so I could see my mistakes and learn to be better. They can also see what they are doing right and get positive feedback as well. Sometimes coaches and fans are wrong!

Speak for yourself...I am never wrong....

DocWrestling · February 28, 2022, 11:02:05 AM

Quote from: SP on February 28, 2022, 09:50:18 AM
I don't think everyone that has issues with some poor calls needs to now become a ref. I also feel that some calls were really bad and they had a direct impact on the outcome of matches. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best refs at state.

I would want to make sure that am doing the best job possible for the kids. I am also aware that everyone makes mistakes and we will never have a state meet that everyone walks away felling that the refs did not make any mistakes. With the technology we now have, I would want to see myself in action and try to understand what a coach is saying. Many officials ask coaches about tough calls and want to know their perspective. Some just look at coaches like they don't know a thing. The same officials that talk to coaches are most often the ones that admit they may have missed a call. Coaches can't expect 100% accuracy and most don't. The state meet magnifies these mistakes. I wish they had a system that coaches could send .arches to for evaluation. Refs could say yes or no to aging their matches viewed. I know I would want mine viewed by my peers so I could see my mistakes and learn to be better. They can also see what they are doing right and get positive feedback as well. Sometimes coaches and fans are wrong!

Having mentoring or reviewing match video all would make great sense but cannot fall on the officials really as this is a part time gig for them. The WIAA could do a much better job every offseason and putting together videos of matches and interpretations and training to help all refs rather than just relying on independent officials associations. Maybe having Mel Dow in WIAA leadership can help this. All officials would appreciate this.

Handles II · February 28, 2022, 11:17:43 AM

Quote from: dman on February 28, 2022, 08:58:09 AM
Quote from: Handles II on February 28, 2022, 08:23:34 AM
Sounds like we have several people on this site that could do a better job. Please go through the process and start reffing. You will make a positive contribution to the sport. And, as someone stated, you will be paid to do it. I can't imagine why the complainers on here now (and every year) haven't already filled the shoes of our retired officials?
Yep, the sport is losing officials faster than they can be replaced. You are fully welcome to be the change you want to happen.

To bad you don't understand the point. And funny part is the people that you call "complainers" probably have contributed more to the sport than you ever have or will. And so sorry if you are ref and are hurt by people/coaches wanting the best ref's at the state tournament, and when they aren't the best and screw up on basic aspects of the job they are and should be criticized. Sorry your fragile ego can't take it.

I do understand the point, and the factors in the equation. We have a limited number of officials and need more officials it has been announced at the State Tournament for several years. We have a rating system. Unless you are an official, or a person that submitting ratings for officials, you have nothing to do with it. So, in order to do something, rather than just be a complainer do one or both of the following: Use your knowledge of the rules and become an official and help the sport, or become a Head Coach and rate officials (something that in almost every tournament, officials are begging coaches to do because not all Head Coaches take the time/effort to go online and do the rankings for each official they see). If the "complainers" aren't doing either of things, then they should get on it, or shut it.

And let's face the facts, errors will happen. Certain rules/calls are up to the officials interpretation based on the situation at hand. Control, stalling, loss of control are interpretations of situations. Even nearfall is an interpretation of the rules. Is it 45 degrees or not? Was he there two seconds or three? Your best refs won't make the call that makes every person happy based on their own opinion (be it from the coaches chair or their seat in section 315). That's reality, not ego. A fragile ego would be constantly complaining about it without ever putting yourself in the position to do something about it.

bulldog · February 28, 2022, 12:03:10 PM

DocWrestling...you raise a thought. Does the WIAA currently have a match review process? I am not saying something where they review matches that are brought into question but maybe video that is submitted to them that they could review the match and offer call suggestions. It is probably a tough thing to do because video vs in match situation is completely different. I am a much better video ref then in match...I never miss a call on video.

Maybe it is an impossible idea...just thinking out loud. The tough thing from a ref standpoint is after the meet thinking of the calls that were made. In the heat of a match they make the call. There is not time to waffle about if it is a pin or nearfall. I have been critical of a great many refs and I had done it years ago. I fully recognize a full day on the mat is a brutal experience. I could not imagine at the level of the state tournament. I would have to be 20 years old to take a full day of those matches...and need a strong drink afterwards.

I am sure all refs have walked away thinking about close calls. Maybe if there was a video review through the WIAA for further education of the refs that would be useful. But maybe it is not something that is possible.

SP · February 28, 2022, 12:20:44 PM

Quote from: DocWrestling on February 28, 2022, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: SP on February 28, 2022, 09:50:18 AM
I don't think everyone that has issues with some poor calls needs to now become a ref. I also feel that some calls were really bad and they had a direct impact on the outcome of matches. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best refs at state.

I would want to make sure that am doing the best job possible for the kids. I am also aware that everyone makes mistakes and we will never have a state meet that everyone walks away felling that the refs did not make any mistakes. With the technology we now have, I would want to see myself in action and try to understand what a coach is saying. Many officials ask coaches about tough calls and want to know their perspective. Some just look at coaches like they don't know a thing. The same officials that talk to coaches are most often the ones that admit they may have missed a call. Coaches can't expect 100% accuracy and most don't. The state meet magnifies these mistakes. I wish they had a system that coaches could send .arches to for evaluation. Refs could say yes or no to aging their matches viewed. I know I would want mine viewed by my peers so I could see my mistakes and learn to be better. They can also see what they are doing right and get positive feedback as well. Sometimes coaches and fans are wrong!

Having mentoring or reviewing match video all would make great sense but cannot fall on the officials really as this is a part time gig for them. The WIAA could do a much better job every offseason and putting together videos of matches and interpretations and training to help all refs rather than just relying on independent officials associations. Maybe having Mel Dow in WIAA leadership can help this. All officials would appreciate this.

I know it is a part time job. I would hope that officials wanting to work the best events would be able to log on a computer and watch some video clips or read a few interpretations. The WIAA should employ someone that heads this up. Most officials want to do the best job they can. Some will ask to see video at an event. These are the ones that are the best and truly want to be the best.

I saw several poor calls from a few officials. The majority were great.

I think it is completely fair to want the best for the atheletes. Coaches make mistakes all the time and they try to correct them so they don't happen again. Coaches are part time! I feel strongly that giving officials the resources to improve is way overdue. If you give them the opportunities it is up to them to utilize them. The best will rise to the top.

Handles II · February 28, 2022, 12:31:15 PM

Quote from: SP on February 28, 2022, 12:20:44 PM
Quote from: DocWrestling on February 28, 2022, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: SP on February 28, 2022, 09:50:18 AM
I don't think everyone that has issues with some poor calls needs to now become a ref. I also feel that some calls were really bad and they had a direct impact on the outcome of matches. There is nothing wrong with wanting the best refs at state.

I would want to make sure that am doing the best job possible for the kids. I am also aware that everyone makes mistakes and we will never have a state meet that everyone walks away felling that the refs did not make any mistakes. With the technology we now have, I would want to see myself in action and try to understand what a coach is saying. Many officials ask coaches about tough calls and want to know their perspective. Some just look at coaches like they don't know a thing. The same officials that talk to coaches are most often the ones that admit they may have missed a call. Coaches can't expect 100% accuracy and most don't. The state meet magnifies these mistakes. I wish they had a system that coaches could send .arches to for evaluation. Refs could say yes or no to aging their matches viewed. I know I would want mine viewed by my peers so I could see my mistakes and learn to be better. They can also see what they are doing right and get positive feedback as well. Sometimes coaches and fans are wrong!

Having mentoring or reviewing match video all would make great sense but cannot fall on the officials really as this is a part time gig for them. The WIAA could do a much better job every offseason and putting together videos of matches and interpretations and training to help all refs rather than just relying on independent officials associations. Maybe having Mel Dow in WIAA leadership can help this. All officials would appreciate this.
I know it is a part time job. I would hope that officials wanting to work the best events would be able to log on a computer and watch some video clips or read a few interpretations. The WIAA should employ someone that heads this up. Most officials want to do the best job they can. Some will ask to see video at an event. These are the ones that are the best and truly want to be the best.

I saw several poor calls from a few officials. The majority were great.

I think it is completely fair to want the best for the atheletes. Coaches make mistakes all the time and they try to correct them so they don't happen again. Coaches are part time! I feel strongly that giving officials the resources to improve is way overdue. If you give them the opportunities it is up to them to utilize them. The best will rise to the top.

I agree with this. We have had several officials ask for video of matches. Additionally, most coaches have been utilizing video for years in assessment of their wrestlers (and how to improve coaching methods). A factor in this is that teams almost always have someone doing video. It's not as easily accessible for an official. With more schools streaming videos now, it's getting better and I know some officals are watching those when possible.

WIWRESTLING1010 · February 28, 2022, 12:38:28 PM

Unfortunately, reffing at the state tournament is a good ol boys club type deal! Does not surprise me with the WIAA as they consistently screw up everything! I am not a complain about the refs guy either. I am just saying there were a few refs out there on Saturday night (I will not mention names because I respect these people) that had ZEROOO business reffing in the state finals! Just my .02

Handles II · February 28, 2022, 12:52:30 PM

Quote from: WIWRESTLING1010 on February 28, 2022, 12:38:28 PM
Unfortunately, reffing at the state tournament is a good ol boys club type deal! Does not surprise me with the WIAA as they consistently screw up everything! I am not a complain about the refs guy either. I am just saying there were a few refs out there on Saturday night (I will not mention names because I respect these people) that had ZEROOO business reffing in the state finals! Just my .02

Would you like to further explain the rating system, the rotational system that is put in place for officiating at State, and the rating of the officials who were there vs the ones that weren't there? Lots of us would like to know much more about it. It sounds like you have the information to help us all.