Stall calls

[padre]

It could be worse...
Edit- This isn't a stalling issue, just a...let's say questionable decision by the refs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQQjvlfSO7U

Crazy finish...I could see where there's no points given when you watch it a couple times.  However, it puts the kid that didn't actually get the points in a real bad position as far as wanting to score an escape.

[tigerking]

It could be worse...
Edit- This isn't a stalling issue, just a...let's say questionable decision by the refs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQQjvlfSO7U

Crazy finish...I could see where there's no points given when you watch it a couple times.  However, it puts the kid that didn't actually get the points in a real bad position as far as wanting to score an escape.

I find it hard to change the score after the exchange occurred 15 seconds prior to the end of the match. Tough call. Feel bad for both kids involved.

[Handles II]

D1 106 - Green riding - down by 1, 7-6 with a minute left - gets both legs in starts working for power half after bellying out red - 30 seconds left ref dings red to tie the match - 10 seconds later both wrestlers doing the exact same thing as the last 40 seconds dings the top man and resets. 

Nothing changed.  If you felt red was stalling at 30 seconds left, how do you say green is now stalling while attempting to dig out same power half he was.  Be consistent IMO.   

Agree with the consistency call.

Lots of coaches are now talking about needing to call double-leg riding, or single leg riding with a figure 4 as stalling, or minimum of a stalemate if nothing has happened within say 10 seconds.
The reality is that lots of kids have learned (been coached) on how to use a double leg ride as a stall ride. They look "busy" trying to get a power half, they throw up their hands in "frustration" when they can't, but they don't move to something else, they don't take the legs out and work for a cradle.  If a half nelson isn't there, work for an arm bar or a crossface. You don't just stay working for a half nelson for 60 seconds while riding with the hips broken down. You have to clear the hips, you have to work for something else, or it's stalling.  As soon as the legs are put in, that same criteria is thrown out the window.
With double-leg ride and some kids in figure 4 leg rides, it's next to impossible even for kids who are very good on bottom to get out (which is why they are popular at the college level where riding time occurs, and stalling calls on the top man are almost non-existent). The hips are never cleared, and in far too many situations, especially the last 30 seconds of a period, legs are just being used to stay in control, not to actively advance the position.  It's stalling, and should be called as such in the opinion of a growing number of coaches. Or, as mentioned, at the very least a stalemate and a fresh start where the bottom man has a few seconds to get away before the boots get put back in again.

[asdf]

Neutral wrestling on 1-2 knees should be added to the list of needing to be called for stalling.  Much like leg riding-if it is used to get into your offense to score great.  But often it is just a flat out stall and almost never called by WI officials. 

Watch some of the national tournaments or state meets on Flo and it is called immediately almost everywhere else.  Those moving onto college are in for a big surprise.

[tyben]

D1 106 - Green riding - down by 1, 7-6 with a minute left - gets both legs in starts working for power half after bellying out red - 30 seconds left ref dings red to tie the match - 10 seconds later both wrestlers doing the exact same thing as the last 40 seconds dings the top man and resets. 

Nothing changed.  If you felt red was stalling at 30 seconds left, how do you say green is now stalling while attempting to dig out same power half he was.  Be consistent IMO.   

Agree with the consistency call.

Lots of coaches are now talking about needing to call double-leg riding, or single leg riding with a figure 4 as stalling, or minimum of a stalemate if nothing has happened within say 10 seconds.
The reality is that lots of kids have learned (been coached) on how to use a double leg ride as a stall ride. They look "busy" trying to get a power half, they throw up their hands in "frustration" when they can't, but they don't move to something else, they don't take the legs out and work for a cradle.  If a half nelson isn't there, work for an arm bar or a crossface. You don't just stay working for a half nelson for 60 seconds while riding with the hips broken down. You have to clear the hips, you have to work for something else, or it's stalling.  As soon as the legs are put in, that same criteria is thrown out the window.
With double-leg ride and some kids in figure 4 leg rides, it's next to impossible even for kids who are very good on bottom to get out (which is why they are popular at the college level where riding time occurs, and stalling calls on the top man are almost non-existent). The hips are never cleared, and in far too many situations, especially the last 30 seconds of a period, legs are just being used to stay in control, not to actively advance the position.  It's stalling, and should be called as such in the opinion of a growing number of coaches. Or, as mentioned, at the very least a stalemate and a fresh start where the bottom man has a few seconds to get away before the boots get put back in again.

I don't like it when stalling is called on the bottom guy when legs are in, there is almost nothing bottom kid can do. Stalemate is the right call. 

[Farside]

Neutral wrestling on 1-2 knees should be added to the list of needing to be called for stalling.  Much like leg riding-if it is used to get into your offense to score great.  But often it is just a flat out stall and almost never called by WI officials. 

Watch some of the national tournaments or state meets on Flo and it is called immediately almost everywhere else.  Those moving onto college are in for a big surprise.

If the wrestler  is just sitting on a knee then I'm ok with the discussion of stalling but if the wrestler is engaging in the hand fight and attacking there is no reason a stall call should be given there. Some kids are longer/lankier kids and may not react as fast as others. Should they just wade in and let guys get to their legs because they can't react fast enough? Or should they be allowed to wrestle to the best of their ability with the body they have and find ways to win with the body they have? To me that's adaptability, and smart wrestling. Just my opinion though.

[littleguy301]

Neutral wrestling on 1-2 knees should be added to the list of needing to be called for stalling.  Much like leg riding-if it is used to get into your offense to score great.  But often it is just a flat out stall and almost never called by WI officials. 

Watch some of the national tournaments or state meets on Flo and it is called immediately almost everywhere else.  Those moving onto college are in for a big surprise.

Well I am not sure about that call. I see many kids dropping to a knee in national events whether folkstyle and freestyle. It is a way to get lower on shots or attack ankles. I have watched several.kids drop and more from their knees in national events, including my relation.

[Whizzersoldman]

 :'(I agree that our refs need some training on stall vs stalemate calls. The 2 boots in ride can be very hard to navigate. I thought this was very clear in the 1st match of the finals in D-1. Kid on bottom appeared to be working his butt off but still got dinged for stalling. The group of guys I hang with all agreed that the refs didn't have a good Sat. night.

[littleguy301]

I will say that this stalling calls after 10 seconds on pinning combos has to be revisited.

You can ride a crab and spiral but cannt ride a half and spiral due to it is a pinning combo.

This stall call is making slow developing pinning combos a thing of the past. I watched 2 near side cradles, one cradle.and 1.arm bar at state get called for stalling at state. All.less than 15 seconds have run off the clock and in the cradles the bottom guybwas fighting hands and on the bar the bottom guy was a compete beast and wasn't going over in that 11 seconds.

This needs to reviewed and presented different.

[WINfan]

D1 106 - Green riding - down by 1, 7-6 with a minute left - gets both legs in starts working for power half after bellying out red - 30 seconds left ref dings red to tie the match - 10 seconds later both wrestlers doing the exact same thing as the last 40 seconds dings the top man and resets. 

Nothing changed.  If you felt red was stalling at 30 seconds left, how do you say green is now stalling while attempting to dig out same power half he was.  Be consistent IMO.   

Agree with the consistency call.

Lots of coaches are now talking about needing to call double-leg riding, or single leg riding with a figure 4 as stalling, or minimum of a stalemate if nothing has happened within say 10 seconds.
The reality is that lots of kids have learned (been coached) on how to use a double leg ride as a stall ride. They look "busy" trying to get a power half, they throw up their hands in "frustration" when they can't, but they don't move to something else, they don't take the legs out and work for a cradle.  If a half nelson isn't there, work for an arm bar or a crossface. You don't just stay working for a half nelson for 60 seconds while riding with the hips broken down. You have to clear the hips, you have to work for something else, or it's stalling.  As soon as the legs are put in, that same criteria is thrown out the window.
With double-leg ride and some kids in figure 4 leg rides, it's next to impossible even for kids who are very good on bottom to get out (which is why they are popular at the college level where riding time occurs, and stalling calls on the top man are almost non-existent). The hips are never cleared, and in far too many situations, especially the last 30 seconds of a period, legs are just being used to stay in control, not to actively advance the position.  It's stalling, and should be called as such in the opinion of a growing number of coaches. Or, as mentioned, at the very least a stalemate and a fresh start where the bottom man has a few seconds to get away before the boots get put back in again.

This in my mind was one of the worst calls in the tournament.  It was an obvious stalemate.  instead gave the match tieing point to the top kid to send into overtime.  How you can call one guy for stalling and then a few second later call the other guy in the same situation is crazy.

[Redeemer]

Agree. I also saw a lot of questionable calls I didn't agree with. Also some bad matches where the clock doesn't start for a good chunk of time, and then let the match go on an extra minute. I don't have a horse in any race, but i'd say some "horses" got unfair calls against em. It is what it is. I expect Herm and others to come back with vengeance.

[Vir Fortis]

It could be worse...
Edit- This isn't a stalling issue, just a...let's say questionable decision by the refs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQQjvlfSO7U

Crazy finish...I could see where there's no points given when you watch it a couple times.  However, it puts the kid that didn't actually get the points in a real bad position as far as wanting to score an escape.

I'd probably agree there was no points scored...but the "top" kid was down by 1 when they signaled the mistake. Don't you at least have to re-wrestle them and let the kid get those 15 seconds back? Which STILL puts the bottom kid in a disadvantage because it took time to even get into that scramble, but when you have the kid who ends up winning trying to kick out and get an escape in the final seconds and then he ends up winning...it's a bad look.

I'd have to go back again, but I do remember the guy on top, as I said, trying to kick out at the end. Now could be argued if you're in control, you'd be able to kick out and "get out" pretty easily.

Two highly ranked D-1 recruits. At least give the 1 point so those kids can finish it on the mat if you can't re-wrestle those final 15 seconds.

[asdf]

Neutral wrestling on 1-2 knees should be added to the list of needing to be called for stalling.  Much like leg riding-if it is used to get into your offense to score great.  But often it is just a flat out stall and almost never called by WI officials. 

Watch some of the national tournaments or state meets on Flo and it is called immediately almost everywhere else.  Those moving onto college are in for a big surprise.

Well I am not sure about that call. I see many kids dropping to a knee in national events whether folkstyle and freestyle. It is a way to get lower on shots or attack ankles. I have watched several.kids drop and more from their knees in national events, including my relation.

Like I wrote, dropping to the knee is not stalling when used to get into offensive move.  Much like the fake-half with the legs in riding parallel--sitting back on 1 knee, hips over heels in defensive position while occasionally half swiping at an ankle is not offense.  Evidenced by entire matches being spent in neutral with minimal TD's occurring. 

I also have been to national tournaments with kids being on one knee.  Difference is the refs at the national tournaments called it correctly when stalling was happening.   A couple years back a collegiate DIII wrestler-Albis from Johnson and Wales (I think that was him) was the best offensive wrestler from 1-2 knees.  2x national champ and unstoppable.  He was always in the future.

Use the Flo account to watch a lot of the state tourneys they are doing this year, there is a difference in our state.

[Fatguyrolls]

There is a lot of good opinions here about stalling calls.  While at an out of state wrestling tournament, I had an opportunity to talk to the head ref of the tournament outside of the event. I noticed they called the top guy for stalling with one or two legs in multiple times.  So I asked if that was something new, in Wisconsin you will rarely if ever see that call.  He informed me that wasn't new there. In the course of the ride if the top guy is just grabbing wrists and cross facing moving from one to the other in a quick manner without attempting to turn an individual while keeping their hips on the mat, they will call it on the top wrestler. He went on to say that if top had two legs in and has the bottom guy broke down and the bottom guy can't get his knees to the mat they will call top every time because he has put the bottom guy in a place where he can't build base and it is the top wrestlers responsibility to turn the bottom wrestler.  This is the same of a parallel one leg ride when the top wrestler figure 4's the leg high and traps the bottom wrestlers hip on the mat.  He did say obviously there are situations where the bottom guy grabs wrists and just lays there, then it will get called on bottom. 
I went on to ask about the stalling call/no call on kids in neutral who are on a knee.  I saw this called on the wrestler who was on a knee and saw the same exact situation not called.  He explained to me that this is difficult but the wrestler on a knee or two knees and doesnt engage/move foward will be called for stalling. He did explain that the other wrestler still needs to attempt to engage as well. In some cases they will call both for stalling
I also saw several calls that I thought were interesting and I had never seen called before.  The call was on the top wrestler when the bottom wrestler got to his feet and he either hooked through the crotch, grabbed a leg, or had hands locked on the waist and intentially drove the bottom wrestler out of bounds. They called Fleeing the mat.  Obviously there were some extremely angry coaches and parents on this call.  He said if it is obvious and blatant they will call Fleeing because it is exactly like a wrestler who is trying to get out of bounds to prevent a take down. 
I found all of this extremely interesting and said you will not see this called in Wisconsin. He laughed and replied to me "This is why we prefer to Not have Wisconsin refs come to our tournaments!" There will be some individuals who agree with what I wrote here and some who do not. That is OK.  I am just giving you some bits from the enjoyably interesting conversation with this Official and his staff of officials outside of the competition.

[thequad]

In the team finals with LC and Amery I thought this ref was a little bit crazy calling stalling as quick as he was.