Wrestling Rules changes from the April NFHS meeting

Started by TomM, April 20, 2021, 11:26:38 AM

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Numbers

So there are 10 weight classes for the world championships (6 in Olympic years)
10 weights in college
but the idea of only having 12 or 13 weights in high school is nuts?

Many teams that support 14 weights would also support 15 weights.  Yet the majority of teams cannot field a full varsity team and have maybe 2/3 of a JV team.


dforsythe

I do believe fewer weight classes is better, because it is so difficult to find 14 starters that are all a different weight. But whether they change or not, I don't think it will do much to effect the sport. I am afraid if we continue to add more events to the schedule we will lose more kids and more coaches. The biggest hurdle I have in recruiting kids is they don't want to give up every Saturday. We seem to focus everything in our sport on the top 1%. The huge tournaments and getting kids to wrestle 60 or 70 matches is great for the top kids. It is horrible for the average and below average kids. They end up quitting or never coming out in the first place. Kids get pushed to the brink in elementary and middle school and then have no desire to wrestle in high school. We have got to lose the mentality that more is always better. Sometimes, less is more.

MNbadger

#47
I have a team that many of the retraction supporters would think would benefit from said reduction of weight classes.  We forfeited one or two weights all year.  They were upper weights however(it varied ...170, 182,195).  The heavier weights we did have were not legitimate weight-wise.  Honestly they probably should not have been out there in many cases.  We do all the right things.  We try new things.  We keep working.  I have mentioned before, we have been at the top, at the bottom, and everywhere in between.  I still don't want weight classes cut and I wish we would start lower again.  We struggle to get big kids out.  Some struggle to get light kids out.  The difference is, if you cut the light weight classes out, you can't give them a place to be.  My lack of getting bigger kids out is what it is.  At least when I do recruit a (big) kid, he has a place to wrestle.
Despite our shortage of wrestlers(something we are ALWAYS working on) I would be happy adding a weight to 15.  We need something lighter than 106 and lighter than the proposed 108 for sure. 
https://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf
Look at the weight of kids.  Now, it depends what ages you pick for high school.  Do you count 14-15 F, 15-16 So, 16-17 J, and 17-18 Sr or 15 F, 16 So, 17 J, and 18 Sr or 14.5 F, 15.5 So, 16.5 J, and 17.5 Sr?
Regardless, it shows we could easily start lower than 106.  Actually, 103 was a good starting point statistically.
If you find the line for 106 pounds, go right to left and you will see that just over 25% of 14.5(freshmen) year old males weigh 106.  More than 10% of 15.5(sophomores) year old males weigh 106. Now we are considering going even higher to start?!?!?! I do know some on here are of the opinion that varsity athletics are just for upper classmen.  That is a different argument but one I personally disagree with for too many reasons to go into. 
Some of my "big guys" this year.....Wrestler A: competed at 182/195 minimum wrestling weight via skin fold: 129.59
Wrestler B: competed at 220 minimum wrestling weight via skin fold: 159.78.  Wrestler C: competed at 182/195 minimum wrestling weight via skin fold: 141.98.  Wrestler D:  actual weight 246 minimum wrestling weight via skin fold: 168.72.  Just a few examples.   My point is, my "big" kids aren't really big kids.  One could question the decision to have them wrestling in these weight classes.  The thing is, you don't see football skin folding and measuring body fat.  There are literally zero restrictions on that sport.  You can literally have a 95 pound freshman go head to head on the field with a 300 plus pound senior.  No one would say a word.  And I would argue until the end of time that a 300 pound teen ager is destined for WAY more health problems down the road than any kid cutting weight.
The obsession with JV is overblown in my opinion in regard to duals.  Kids want to be on varsity.  Nowadays kids often drop out of sports when they don't make varsity.  Kids have changed.  Trying to insist on jv being dual oriented is worse, not better for our sport.  The jv should be more like exhibition, giving kids as many matches as possible in preparation for when they make varsity and for their fun and enjoyment.
I know this is long and a bit disjointed but I think we are seriously hurting ourselves when considering retraction and raising the starting weight class. I really believe we are making a mistake considering this kind of thing.  Regardless, I will be here trying to recruit every kid in the hallways, coaching the kids I have in the room and trying to build as we all are.  Thanks.
Quote from: Numbers on April 27, 2021, 09:07:55 AM
So there are 10 weight classes for the world championships (6 in Olympic years)
10 weights in college
but the idea of only having 12 or 13 weights in high school is nuts?

Many teams that support 14 weights would also support 15 weights.  Yet the majority of teams cannot field a full varsity team and have maybe 2/3 of a JV team.
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

Ghetto

Quote from: wrastle63 on April 27, 2021, 08:53:18 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on April 26, 2021, 10:51:31 AM
Quote from: wrastle63 on April 23, 2021, 11:50:59 PM
Quote from: asdf on April 23, 2021, 10:13:01 PM
Quote from: Ghetto on April 23, 2021, 10:08:29 AM
Of course the number of weights doesn't attract (or detract) kids from wrestling. Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what.

They will join a team if there is buzz around that team. It is entirely possible that having two less weights creates a more competitive dual.

More than ever, kids transfer to good situations. Maybe the logjam pushes a kid to a school that doesn't have a 106 pounder instead of the team that has three?

I also love watching little guys. I will say it every year. I am only here on this forum because of being able to wrestle a light weight.


By your own statement above "Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what"--so what in the heck is the point of eliminating weight classes?  You state eliminating classes will somehow magically increase #s, then just type the opposite.

You like to quote Flo Guys, so here is one for you.  When discussing decreasing weigh classes, Willie had the best statement----basically said anyone that wants to eliminate classes isn't looking to better the sport, but instead is feeding his own ego in the hopes of winning a meaningless dual in January.

Here's a story-Our team had no 106er this year initially.  The kids found one in the hallway.  Wrestled 3 matches the whole year, got killed...but took a forfeit against our rival team to help the team (got the biggest cheer of the night).  The 106er approached my son asking for some training in our shed this summer..the kid is all in off a 3 loss season and a forfeit. Kids is maybe 90# so should have 106 locked in for at least 1 more year.   Point is close dual scores won't "create buzz".  Kids being leaders and teammates do.
Nailed it! Some people just have to whine about something. It could make for a more competitive dual or it could make it even worse. Other sports aren't cutting spots or opportunities because some kids might not be "varsity caliber" or don't have enough. Maybe basketball should go to 3 on 3 and the kids who aren't as good or who are under 5'10" can play JV.  ::)

What I mean is that the kids don't say, oh, there's 14 weights. I should wrestle. Conversely they don't quit because of the number of weights.

I totally disagree that exciting, close score duals won't create a buzz.

Other sports aren't cutting spots because most basketball teams etc.  have a full JV team full of kids, plus a varsity. Most wrestling teams don't even have a full team of varsity kids.
You keep bringing up these close duals. You really think going to 12 weights is going to change a dual? There is no correlation between those two ideas. In fact you could lose by more with less weight classes.

It is entirely possible that duals get closer. We know what happens with 14. It is true we don't know what 12 would bring.
As long as we are keeping score, I've got something to prove

MNbadger

The scores might be closer but it will be more of a drubbing.  When a team better than you condenses their talent the weaker team will be less likely than before to win that 2 or three weights in the dual. 
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

Ghetto

Quote from: MNbadger on April 27, 2021, 07:14:54 PM
The scores might be closer but it will be more of a drubbing.  When a team better than you condenses their talent the weaker team will be less likely than before to win that 2 or three weights in the dual.

That's possible.

Let's try it and find out
As long as we are keeping score, I've got something to prove

MNbadger

#51
The cost is too great in my opinion for the reasons I've stated.  Ignoring/excluding a significant portion of potential participants is not worth it.  And in fact, we tried it in MN with teams having the option to use fewer weight classes.  It changed nothing. .
Quote from: Ghetto on April 27, 2021, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on April 27, 2021, 07:14:54 PM
The scores might be closer but it will be more of a drubbing.  When a team better than you condenses their talent the weaker team will be less likely than before to win that 2 or three weights in the dual.

That's possible.

Let's try it and find out
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

Numbers

Quote from: MNbadger on April 27, 2021, 10:26:48 PM
The cost is too great in my opinion for the reasons I've stated.  Ignoring/excluding a significant portion of potential participants is not worth it.  And in fact, we tried it in MN with teams having the option to use fewer weight classes.  It changed nothing. .
Quote from: Ghetto on April 27, 2021, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on April 27, 2021, 07:14:54 PM
The scores might be closer but it will be more of a drubbing.  When a team better than you condenses their talent the weaker team will be less likely than before to win that 2 or three weights in the dual.

That's possible.

Let's try it and find out
Well there has been enough pushback on 14 that states have options now.  And if the strongest wrestling state wants to reduce, maybe the rest of the nation should take notice and rethink some things.

wrastle63

#53
Quote from: Ghetto on April 27, 2021, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on April 27, 2021, 07:14:54 PM
The scores might be closer but it will be more of a drubbing.  When a team better than you condenses their talent the weaker team will be less likely than before to win that 2 or three weights in the dual.

That's possible.

Let's try it and find out
So your whole point is close exciting duals will happen if we go to 12 which in turn will create buzz and help grow the sport. But you acknowledge that it might not change things? LOL

Also Pennsylvania didn't go to 12 they went to 13. They kept the first 9 weight classes exactly the same- 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160. The update was 172, 189, 215, 285. They did the opposite of what Ghetto has said with trying to push the weight classes higher. Basically they combined 195 and 220.

DocWrestling

Fewer weight classes shortens tournament lengths.  Another positive.  I would definitely be in favor of trying significant change and going to 12 weight classes.

I truly believe that to be a successful sport you have to focus on having quality JV experiences first.  I believe fewer weight classes will funnel more kids to JV improving that level for events and duals.  I also believe if you have two distinct teams it will lead to schools hiring more coaches.
Of Course, this is only my opinion and no one elses!

MNbadger

My guess is that MN will stick with 14 when all is said and done.  I will say it would be WAY more palatable whether we were to go to 13 or 12 weights that the starting weight does not go up at all from 106.  The numbers of high school age males doesn't indicate this being the right move.  If going to 13 happens, it makes sense to do what PA. did with the upper weights.
Quote from: wrastle63 on April 28, 2021, 06:44:32 AM
Quote from: Ghetto on April 27, 2021, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on April 27, 2021, 07:14:54 PM
The scores might be closer but it will be more of a drubbing.  When a team better than you condenses their talent the weaker team will be less likely than before to win that 2 or three weights in the dual.

That's possible.

Let's try it and find out
So your whole point is close exciting duals will happen if we go to 12 which in turn will create buzz and help grow the sport. But you acknowledge that it might not change things? LOL

Also Pennsylvania didn't go to 12 they went to 13. They kept the first 9 weight classes exactly the same- 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160. The update was 172, 189, 215, 285. They did the opposite of what Ghetto has said with trying to push the weight classes higher. Basically they combined 195 and 220.
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

kluevercoach

#56
Guys I don't know what the right amount of weights are for wrestling! I know that when I wrestled it was 12 weights. Scores were lopsided then just as they are now. The great teams still beat good teams badly and the good teams did the same to bad teams. I saw forfeits then and I see them now.
I wrestled in 8 team tournaments and the finals started at 7pm. Wrestling has come a long way with technology to speed up events. Back then we hand wrote all bouts and had people running the bouts from the head table to the mat. Now we have track and everything is done so much quicker. The experience for the athlete, coach and fan is much better now than it has ever been.
Each head coach sets their schedule for weekend events. They need to do what they think is best for their program. Team vs individual tournaments or 5 events vs 7 events. You know your team better than anyone and what is best for them, so schedule appropriately for your program. You do not have to keep up with the Jones.
Weather we have 12, 13 or 14 weights please make sure the athletes are having a great experience. Word of mouth is the best advertisement!

MNbadger

Yes, remember the bad old days....tournaments would get to the finals and have a dinner break and fo the finals two hours later!.....
Quote from: kluevercoach on April 28, 2021, 01:05:24 PM
Guys I don't know what the right amount of weights are for wrestling! I know that when I wrestled it was 12 weights. Scores were lopsided then just as they are now. The great teams still beat good teams badly and the good teams did the same to bad teams. I saw forfeits then and I see them now.
I wrestled in 8 team tournaments and the finals started at 7pm. Wrestling has come a long way with technology to speed up events. Back then we hand wrote all bouts and had people running the bouts from the head table to the mat. Now we have track and everything is done so much quicker. The experience for the athlete, coach and fan is much better now than it has ever been.
Each head coach sets their schedule for weekend events. They need to do what they think is best for their program. Team vs individual tournaments or 5 events vs 7 events. You know your team better than anyone and what is best for them, so schedule appropriately for your program. You do not have to keep up with the Jones.
Weather we have 12, 13 or 14 weights please make sure the athletes are having a great experience. Word of mouth is the best advertisement!
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

TomM

Quote from: MNbadger on April 28, 2021, 02:22:22 PM
Yes, remember the bad old days....tournaments would get to the finals and have a dinner break and fo the finals two hours later!.....

I loved that!
Seek excellence and truth instead of fame -John Prime
Courage is grace under pressure - Ernest Hemingway
Advocating "matside weigh-in" since 1997
"That's why they wrestle the matches"

3boys

I have to agree with Tom on this. I can remember the Middle Border Conference had in its bylaws the finals started at 7:00pm. The place was always jam packed. Ellsworth, Baldwin, Amery with Henry Yetter Durand had some good kids, New Richmond with Bob Olson. The place, whoever hosted, would be rockin. Really made the tournament special. Not saying all tournaments should be that way but making some events special is also a good way to sell a sport.