Wrestling Rules changes from the April NFHS meeting

[MNbadger]

Technically they are not eliminated but practically they are.

There will always be small freshman. If they are only 100 pounds they can still wrestle 106-108. There are not eliminated.

[Numbers]

Technically they are not eliminated but practically they are.

There will always be small freshman. If they are only 100 pounds they can still wrestle 106-108. There are not eliminated.

I think you only need to weigh 88 pounds to wrestle the lowest weight class and there are still forfeit issues at 106.

So you think we need to make sure the smallest freshman have a solid chance of placing at state as a freshman?

Is there a basketball message board for the freshman kid that is the 10th best player in the high school but might not make varsity for a few years and may never get significant varsity minutes?  Wrestlers have it pretty good.

[MNbadger]

No but basketball doesn't cannibalize itself by decided that no one should be allowed to play that is shorter than some arbitrary height.
I am strictly looking at numbers of age eligible/size eligible high school males.
As far as forfeits I kept track of in a tournament we competed in in WI, invariably 103 had more wrestlers than 285.  Additionally, 103 and 112 had more than 215 and 285.
All of this other stuff means nothing compared to the pool of high school athletes.

Technically they are not eliminated but practically they are.

There will always be small freshman. If they are only 100 pounds they can still wrestle 106-108. There are not eliminated.

I think you only need to weigh 88 pounds to wrestle the lowest weight class and there are still forfeit issues at 106.

So you think we need to make sure the smallest freshman have a solid chance of placing at state as a freshman?

Is there a basketball message board for the freshman kid that is the 10th best player in the high school but might not make varsity for a few years and may never get significant varsity minutes?  Wrestlers have it pretty good.

[MNbadger]

Forget freshmen then.
Just under 10% of sophomore aged males are 103 pounds.(15.5 yo)
Just under 5% of junior aged males are 103 pounds.
Look at the charts for 106, there are more of each age than at 103.  No way we should be raising the starting weight.  If anything, we should be going back to 103 if we are serious about growing numbers.
As far as jv, maybe kids don't want to be on jv.  I know this is the case for other sports that I coach.  We will have try outs and often kids make the decision to quit when they find they did not make the varsity squad.  My point is that thinking that is not the issue some think it to be.

Technically they are not eliminated but practically they are.

There will always be small freshman. If they are only 100 pounds they can still wrestle 106-108. There are not eliminated.

I think you only need to weigh 88 pounds to wrestle the lowest weight class and there are still forfeit issues at 106.

So you think we need to make sure the smallest freshman have a solid chance of placing at state as a freshman?

Is there a basketball message board for the freshman kid that is the 10th best player in the high school but might not make varsity for a few years and may never get significant varsity minutes?  Wrestlers have it pretty good.

[asdf]

Of course the number of weights doesn't attract (or detract) kids from wrestling. Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what.

They will join a team if there is buzz around that team. It is entirely possible that having two less weights creates a more competitive dual.

More than ever, kids transfer to good situations. Maybe the logjam pushes a kid to a school that doesn't have a 106 pounder instead of the team that has three?

I also love watching little guys. I will say it every year. I am only here on this forum because of being able to wrestle a light weight.

By your own statement above "Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what"--so what in the heck is the point of eliminating weight classes?  You state eliminating classes will somehow magically increase #s, then just type the opposite.

You like to quote Flo Guys, so here is one for you.  When discussing decreasing weigh classes, Willie had the best statement----basically said anyone that wants to eliminate classes isn't looking to better the sport, but instead is feeding his own ego in the hopes of winning a meaningless dual in January.

Here's a story-Our team had no 106er this year initially.  The kids found one in the hallway.  Wrestled 3 matches the whole year, got killed...but took a forfeit against our rival team to help the team (got the biggest cheer of the night).  The 106er approached my son asking for some training in our shed this summer..the kid is all in off a 3 loss season and a forfeit. Kids is maybe 90# so should have 106 locked in for at least 1 more year.   Point is close dual scores won't "create buzz".  Kids being leaders and teammates do.

[wrastle63]

Of course the number of weights doesn't attract (or detract) kids from wrestling. Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what.

They will join a team if there is buzz around that team. It is entirely possible that having two less weights creates a more competitive dual.

More than ever, kids transfer to good situations. Maybe the logjam pushes a kid to a school that doesn't have a 106 pounder instead of the team that has three?

I also love watching little guys. I will say it every year. I am only here on this forum because of being able to wrestle a light weight.

By your own statement above "Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what"--so what in the heck is the point of eliminating weight classes?  You state eliminating classes will somehow magically increase #s, then just type the opposite.

You like to quote Flo Guys, so here is one for you.  When discussing decreasing weigh classes, Willie had the best statement----basically said anyone that wants to eliminate classes isn't looking to better the sport, but instead is feeding his own ego in the hopes of winning a meaningless dual in January.

Here's a story-Our team had no 106er this year initially.  The kids found one in the hallway.  Wrestled 3 matches the whole year, got killed...but took a forfeit against our rival team to help the team (got the biggest cheer of the night).  The 106er approached my son asking for some training in our shed this summer..the kid is all in off a 3 loss season and a forfeit. Kids is maybe 90# so should have 106 locked in for at least 1 more year.   Point is close dual scores won't "create buzz".  Kids being leaders and teammates do.

Nailed it! Some people just have to whine about something. It could make for a more competitive dual or it could make it even worse. Other sports aren't cutting spots or opportunities because some kids might not be "varsity caliber" or don't have enough. Maybe basketball should go to 3 on 3 and the kids who aren't as good or who are under 5'10" can play JV. 

[MNbadger]

" Other sports aren't cutting spots or opportunities because some kids might not be "varsity caliber" or don't have enough. Maybe basketball should go to 3 on 3 and the kids who aren't as good or who are under 5'10" can play JV.  "
Agreed.  We seem to be obsessed about forfeits.  Who cares?  I have coached for years and have had teams from great to horrible.  When we are down, I schedule accordingly.  This does not help as much in our conference as it is a bear and always has been but overall, we do ok. 
Football teams (and every other sport) have blow outs all the time.  Their answer isn't to fundamentally change their sport.  Yes, there is nine man football so I suppose we could have that too with some teams choosing 12 weights.  The difference here is that you inevitably cut opportunities for a good portion of potential wrestlers by doing so. 
Again, having trouble finding a lightweight is one thing, getting rid of a weight guarantees you'll never have one.  Expecting a small kid to toil for three years to make the varsity sounds good to some but it is an unrealistic expectation in my opinion.  We are restricted by weights, nine man (or regular football or other sports) are not. 
I make it a point while we are rebuilding to schedule individual tournaments as we forfeit some weights.  From year to year we can measure our progress by where we place.  In duals, we try to schedule teams "like" us.  In any dual, our measure is how many matches did we win out of the matches wrestled. 

[Ghetto]

Of course the number of weights doesn't attract (or detract) kids from wrestling. Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what.

They will join a team if there is buzz around that team. It is entirely possible that having two less weights creates a more competitive dual.

More than ever, kids transfer to good situations. Maybe the logjam pushes a kid to a school that doesn't have a 106 pounder instead of the team that has three?

I also love watching little guys. I will say it every year. I am only here on this forum because of being able to wrestle a light weight.

By your own statement above "Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what"--so what in the heck is the point of eliminating weight classes?  You state eliminating classes will somehow magically increase #s, then just type the opposite.

You like to quote Flo Guys, so here is one for you.  When discussing decreasing weigh classes, Willie had the best statement----basically said anyone that wants to eliminate classes isn't looking to better the sport, but instead is feeding his own ego in the hopes of winning a meaningless dual in January.

Here's a story-Our team had no 106er this year initially.  The kids found one in the hallway.  Wrestled 3 matches the whole year, got killed...but took a forfeit against our rival team to help the team (got the biggest cheer of the night).  The 106er approached my son asking for some training in our shed this summer..the kid is all in off a 3 loss season and a forfeit. Kids is maybe 90# so should have 106 locked in for at least 1 more year.   Point is close dual scores won't "create buzz".  Kids being leaders and teammates do.

Nailed it! Some people just have to whine about something. It could make for a more competitive dual or it could make it even worse. Other sports aren't cutting spots or opportunities because some kids might not be "varsity caliber" or don't have enough. Maybe basketball should go to 3 on 3 and the kids who aren't as good or who are under 5'10" can play JV. 

What I mean is that the kids don't say, oh, there's 14 weights. I should wrestle. Conversely they don't quit because of the number of weights.

I totally disagree that exciting, close score duals won't create a buzz.

Other sports aren't cutting spots because most basketball teams etc.  have a full JV team full of kids, plus a varsity. Most wrestling teams don't even have a full team of varsity kids.

[Ghetto]

Of course the number of weights doesn't attract (or detract) kids from wrestling. Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what.

They will join a team if there is buzz around that team. It is entirely possible that having two less weights creates a more competitive dual.

More than ever, kids transfer to good situations. Maybe the logjam pushes a kid to a school that doesn't have a 106 pounder instead of the team that has three?

I also love watching little guys. I will say it every year. I am only here on this forum because of being able to wrestle a light weight.

By your own statement above "Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what"--so what in the heck is the point of eliminating weight classes?  You state eliminating classes will somehow magically increase #s, then just type the opposite.

You like to quote Flo Guys, so here is one for you.  When discussing decreasing weigh classes, Willie had the best statement----basically said anyone that wants to eliminate classes isn't looking to better the sport, but instead is feeding his own ego in the hopes of winning a meaningless dual in January.

Here's a story-Our team had no 106er this year initially.  The kids found one in the hallway.  Wrestled 3 matches the whole year, got killed...but took a forfeit against our rival team to help the team (got the biggest cheer of the night).  The 106er approached my son asking for some training in our shed this summer..the kid is all in off a 3 loss season and a forfeit. Kids is maybe 90# so should have 106 locked in for at least 1 more year.   Point is close dual scores won't "create buzz".  Kids being leaders and teammates do.

I love Willie and listen to him too. Let's be super clear. I'm not on this crusade for me. I am no longer a head coach, and even when I was, my ego was large enough when we were losing every dual to negate any possible inflation from winning a dual. Exciting duals was awesome to be a part of. I am absolutely in this to improve wrestling. When I get back in as a head coach, wherever that may be, I'll get better numbers.

You know what decreases opportunities? Lost teams. That's the only thing that removes the ability to wrestle. JV is still an opportunity. Every other sport builds their teams with JV1 and JV2 teams. For whatever reason, we think that's not important.

[MNbadger]

108 is not that light for starting.
https://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41l021.pdf

You can see that 5% of sophomore age boys weigh 106 pounds.  More than 10% of freshman weigh 106. Do we want to close our doors to these athletes?  Whether we are getting these kids out or not is one thing.  If you raise the weight there is no option to recruit them to.

I don't think the 12 weight class solution will eliminated the forfeit problem. 108 is still really light. I would like to see a by the numbers on what weight classes had the highest forfeit percentage in the State of Wisconsin. I would think it would be 106 and 113. Pretty hard to find wrestlers for those weights year in and year out.

[MNbadger]

Of course the number of weights doesn't attract (or detract) kids from wrestling. Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what.

They will join a team if there is buzz around that team. It is entirely possible that having two less weights creates a more competitive dual.

More than ever, kids transfer to good situations. Maybe the logjam pushes a kid to a school that doesn't have a 106 pounder instead of the team that has three?

I also love watching little guys. I will say it every year. I am only here on this forum because of being able to wrestle a light weight.

By your own statement above "Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what"--so what in the heck is the point of eliminating weight classes?  You state eliminating classes will somehow magically increase #s, then just type the opposite.

You like to quote Flo Guys, so here is one for you.  When discussing decreasing weigh classes, Willie had the best statement----basically said anyone that wants to eliminate classes isn't looking to better the sport, but instead is feeding his own ego in the hopes of winning a meaningless dual in January.

Here's a story-Our team had no 106er this year initially.  The kids found one in the hallway.  Wrestled 3 matches the whole year, got killed...but took a forfeit against our rival team to help the team (got the biggest cheer of the night).  The 106er approached my son asking for some training in our shed this summer..the kid is all in off a 3 loss season and a forfeit. Kids is maybe 90# so should have 106 locked in for at least 1 more year.   Point is close dual scores won't "create buzz".  Kids being leaders and teammates do.

Nailed it! Some people just have to whine about something. It could make for a more competitive dual or it could make it even worse. Other sports aren't cutting spots or opportunities because some kids might not be "varsity caliber" or don't have enough. Maybe basketball should go to 3 on 3 and the kids who aren't as good or who are under 5'10" can play JV. 

What I mean is that the kids don't say, oh, there's 14 weights. I should wrestle. Conversely they don't quit because of the number of weights.

I totally disagree that exciting, close score duals won't create a buzz.

Other sports aren't cutting spots because most basketball teams etc.  have a full JV team full of kids, plus a varsity. Most wrestling teams don't even have a full team of varsity kids.

Not true here.  We are finding more and more that kids quit when they don't make the varsity team especially juniors and seniors.
The school I am in:
At one point we were a 10-12 high school with 2600 students.  During those years we would dress almost 100 players(it would vary from 80~ to 90 +).  We now are a 9-12 high school and last season we never got to 90 players on the roster 9-12. 
We sed to have four levels of soccer.  We had three last season but the jv and sophomore team had to share six players or one of them would have been eliminated.
It is not just us.  Another strong soccer program in our conference went to three levels from always having four in their complete history.
Forfeiting weights is no different than a blowout in football, basketball, or any other sport.  And in fact, going to 12 weights will make strong teams stronger and result in more lopsided victories than ever as it will condense their talent.

[Ghetto]

Four levels down to three.

We don't even have a full one at over 60% of the D1 schools.

[MNbadger]

I am aware.  It is similar to that here.  Wrestling doesn't have the numbers of soccer, football, etc.  The thing is, is that really that big an issue?  If it is, why?  And again I will ask, is it worth eliminating even 5% of our potential pool because of these forfeits?  How is it really any different than having a weak football team that loses by twenty or thirty points per game? 

[asdf]

Cutting weight classes is the lazy out.  For a sport that prides itself on "no excuses", we sure got alot of people out there making them.

We get what we earn.  Cutting weight classes when there is no logic, evidenced based, or even factual #s that justify it is nuts.  Prove to me that it will guarantee #'s to increase.  Otherwise the "well we gotta try something" is just weak sauce.

"you got any better ideas, step up" will be the next comment.  This forum alone has thrown out tons of great ideas that I do not see struggling teams implementing.  At the leadership level there is no concrete, state wide plan to increase #'s.  Again- if they decrease weight classes it is just lazy.

When Colleges are dropping teams left and right the worst thing to do is embrace lessening opportunities at the HS level.  The mental gymnastics to justify this by "creating buzz" is comical.  Having a few teams with closer dual scores does not justify cutting across the state.

For every team that has a big dip, I can show you some that increased.  One team near us jumped from 13-15 kids to over 35 kids fat tested in one year.   It definitely wasn't due to the exciting duals they have had.  I don't think they won a dual in 4 years.  Wanna guess what changed?

Good luck to everyone this FS/Greco season.  I am off the forum again until this comes around next year.

[wrastle63]

Of course the number of weights doesn't attract (or detract) kids from wrestling. Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what.

They will join a team if there is buzz around that team. It is entirely possible that having two less weights creates a more competitive dual.

More than ever, kids transfer to good situations. Maybe the logjam pushes a kid to a school that doesn't have a 106 pounder instead of the team that has three?

I also love watching little guys. I will say it every year. I am only here on this forum because of being able to wrestle a light weight.

By your own statement above "Kids aren't joining because of the number of weights no matter what"--so what in the heck is the point of eliminating weight classes?  You state eliminating classes will somehow magically increase #s, then just type the opposite.

You like to quote Flo Guys, so here is one for you.  When discussing decreasing weigh classes, Willie had the best statement----basically said anyone that wants to eliminate classes isn't looking to better the sport, but instead is feeding his own ego in the hopes of winning a meaningless dual in January.

Here's a story-Our team had no 106er this year initially.  The kids found one in the hallway.  Wrestled 3 matches the whole year, got killed...but took a forfeit against our rival team to help the team (got the biggest cheer of the night).  The 106er approached my son asking for some training in our shed this summer..the kid is all in off a 3 loss season and a forfeit. Kids is maybe 90# so should have 106 locked in for at least 1 more year.   Point is close dual scores won't "create buzz".  Kids being leaders and teammates do.

Nailed it! Some people just have to whine about something. It could make for a more competitive dual or it could make it even worse. Other sports aren't cutting spots or opportunities because some kids might not be "varsity caliber" or don't have enough. Maybe basketball should go to 3 on 3 and the kids who aren't as good or who are under 5'10" can play JV. 

What I mean is that the kids don't say, oh, there's 14 weights. I should wrestle. Conversely they don't quit because of the number of weights.

I totally disagree that exciting, close score duals won't create a buzz.

Other sports aren't cutting spots because most basketball teams etc.  have a full JV team full of kids, plus a varsity. Most wrestling teams don't even have a full team of varsity kids.

You keep bringing up these close duals. You really think going to 12 weights is going to change a dual? There is no correlation between those two ideas. In fact you could lose by more with less weight classes.