Quick question

[padre]

With the amount of school other sports miss I don't see any AD balking at letting kids out early or for the entire Friday two days in a season.

I agree this is probably true.  The issue from what I've heard generally is it's hard to get the facility any earlier as it's used all day.

[factfinder]

This thread is interesting. I am sure this will be a very unpopular opinion.

We have just spent the past 3 months bitching how unfair it was the WIAA was limiting wrestling opportunities and now that the season is over for about a hot minute we are back to talking about limiting the number of wrestling opportunities. Yep...coaching is low pay for little personal glory. It is a time commitment that is not equally compensated by $$. If that is the problem...quit. We have noticed club wrestling will step in and fill the void. My gut tells me if the WIAA and HS look for reasons to limit opportunities for kids to wrestle parents will start to move to club wrestling.

Coaching wrestling is not unique.  Every sport has athletes that need different attention. Each sport is a time commitment by the coach, each sport has parents that will crawl up the coaches backside, each sport has paperwork, grade issues, discipline issues, injuries.

The WIAA gives wrestling 14 opportunities to compete in season. 7 duels and 7 tournaments (not counting the tournament series). WIAA maximum competition allowance for other sports: Gymnastics 14 (that is a tough sport - weightlifting, watching weight, injuries), Track 20 (individuals compete in multiple events and typically minimal coaches), Hockey 20 (I wish hockey would go away...those are great wrestling recruits), Basketball 24 (I have watched basketball practice...they run all the Dang time), swimming 15 (most of us would drown after one practice), baseball/softball 26

Baseball - 26 games allowed. The season...2019 first game was April 2nd last game before the tournament series was May 25. 24 games played in 8 weeks (do the math). But of course baseball coaches don't have to deal with grades, paperwork, injuries, parents, the pay is awesome, the sport is not hard on an old guys body, there are no holidays (Easter, Mother's Day). Of those 24 games half were on a weekday starting after 4:30 pm. So Doc...your point about other sports have all day events during school hours is not factual. I don't believe school goes until 4:30 in the afternoon. (BTW...I am not a baseball coach and neither of my boys played in HS)

I know...the inappropriate term1 is all day tournaments on Saturdays. We all know every one of those tournaments could be shortened to half that time with less breaks. inappropriate term3...we saw the state tournament could be cut from 3 days to one. So it is very reasonable to believe a one day tournament could be cut in half with less hour long breaks.

My point...let's cut back wrestling opportunities for the athlete. Let's start a letter to the WIAA and have competitions only on weekdays, cut the number down to 9 like football, and let's cut weight classes down to 10. And then this forum can be bitching about low numbers in HS wrestling.

Great post!!
Coaching is a calling and a gift.
There are so many things that could be done to change long Saturday tournaments.
1. Digital weigh ins at home school, this allows time to eat & drink and recover on the buss. MN has went to that this year and its awesome.
2. Shorten the 45 min gap between matches to 30 min.
3. Eliminate the 1 hour break before the finals
4. Go to a couple 8 man bracket (team tournaments) in and out by 1pm
>I understand not every team has a robust coaching staff, but for those that do rotate your staff so coaches can take a few weekends off.
>MN runs with 16 events or weigh ins and the season is two weeks shorter, I would rather get in more events and shorten the season.
>Take the holiday week off like they do in Iowa, including practice.
Wisconsin HS wrestling is way overdue for some fun new kid/coach friendly changes that improve everyones experience within the sport. What is hurting Wisconsin wrestling is the amount of WIAA mandates and unnecessary rules and regulations that have been allowed to happen. Take back the sport from the WIAA and run it right. So many of the complaints can be fixed if everyone would get on the same page and not always fight for there individual team.

[bigG]

Love the 30 minute thing. Sick of waiting around for this or that wrestleback. Let's get on with it.

[bulldog]

The question is "who are the changes for?".

If they are for the athlete because the athletes want them and it is better for them...great. I have heard kids don't like duel meets because it gets to be a late night, they still have school responsibilities for Friday so many times they have to come home after a meet and do school work at 10:00 at night and a duel is one match...sometimes a forfeit. it is frustrating to prepare all day mentally for a match while in school to come out for one or no matches. Whereas weekend tournaments their day is focused on competition and they are typically assured of multiple matches in a day. They have all day Sunday to recover and work on school work

Sure they would like to do other things on the weekend, what teenager wouldn't? But I don't believe they hate weekend events. Most wrestlers grew up in a gym on Saturdays and Sundays from January through March almost every weekend from age 5 until they hit at least middle school if not high school. So for them it really is kind of a way of life. Parents have been doing it with them so it is kind of ingrained in them as well.

What (I believe) wrestlers hate about weekend tournaments it the time. They grew up going to youth tournaments that ran them 3-4 round robin matches. The good tournaments got them in and got them out. The bad tournaments they didn't go back to. But when HS hits they get having to make weight on Thursday AND on Saturday...that is tough. Tournaments become a major travel. Teams loading up at 5:30 to go 2 hours away (when there are events much closer). They get to the tournament weigh in and sit for 2 hours (most youth events do the same thing). But then it is dragged out until 6:00-7:00 at night and then drive home 2 hours so they are not getting home until 9:00 at night (maybe later)

I will wager that is tournaments on the weekend were get there by 7:00 start wrestling by 9:00 and wrap up by 2:00 there would be minimal complaints from the athletes regarding weekend events. It could be team round robin events. Get them 3-4 matches on a Saturday and call it a day.

And pulling kids out of school day for athletics never really sits well with me. I always thought the student portion came first in the term "student athlete". The student still has school responsibility and pulling them out of classes to go to a competition seems to put the athlete before the student. 

Or are the changes for the coaches? Then I don't know...yep, it is a commitment. But I do believe the sport is for the athletes first...

[DocWrestling]

Wrestling wastes a ton of time!

1) Wrestle duals on two mats.  One with varsity matches and one with JV/exhibition.  Less time and more energy in the gym with two matches going on and more people in stands at the same time.  Start duals at 6pm promptly

2) For larger tournaments create two brackets.  The first round is often a waste of time wrestling the top seed against the bottom seed.  Divide the wrestlers in half and have a gold bracket and a silver bracket.  Everyone will be happier.

3) 30 minute minimum time

4) No breaks-  Even the officials I speak with would rather just get done earlier.  Just hire one more ref than mats used.

5) Weighins and pre-bracketing-  I like the idea of weigh-ins prior to bus ride.  Show up, 15 minute warm-up, wrestle

6) Have more mats!

Missing a whole day of school is easier than a baseball player or track athlete missing the same last two classes of the day for 24 baseball games in a season.  Heck our teams miss the last class for home games.

[hornbuckleb]

Wrestling wastes a ton of time!

1) Wrestle duals on two mats.  One with varsity matches and one with JV/exhibition.  Less time and more energy in the gym with two matches going on and more people in stands at the same time.  Start duals at 6pm promptly

2) For larger tournaments create two brackets.  The first round is often a waste of time wrestling the top seed against the bottom seed.  Divide the wrestlers in half and have a gold bracket and a silver bracket.  Everyone will be happier.

3) 30 minute minimum time

4) No breaks-  Even the officials I speak with would rather just get done earlier.  Just hire one more ref than mats used.

5) Weighins and pre-bracketing-  I like the idea of weigh-ins prior to bus ride.  Show up, 15 minute warm-up, wrestle

6) Have more mats!

Missing a whole day of school is easier than a baseball player or track athlete missing the same last two classes of the day for 24 baseball games in a season.  Heck our teams miss the last class for home games.

This topic must be about that cancel culture stuff I keep hearing about on FOX NEWS

[littleguy301]

1. 20 to 30 minutes between matches

2. Weigh in at school before leaving.

3. Cut down breaks in between rounds, everyone needs a break and mat cleaning.

4. Cut the 7 and 7 so you can have multi duals on a week night and that frees ups more open dates.

5. If the school has room, I like the 2 mat and 3 ref thing.

6. Get rid of the decent plan but keep the safe weight plan.

4a.......having a set number of weigh ins and a match limit before the state series. Helps many situations over all. Example for a kid cutting weight he does cut weight but with multi meets they may get 3 to 4 matches instead of 1 or a ff. Also as a coach you can build in weekends offs or weekdays off depending on the needs of your team. Example again......you schedule 3 quads and 1 tournament before Christmas and you have a possible 15 to 17 matches in and that takes 3 nights and 1 Saturday so in the first 6 weeks formtye season that is 4 days of competition out of 42 days which is very doable. With our current situation to get those amount of matches it is 3 single duals and 3 tournaments to get around the same. Cutting 2 days off the schedule.

4b. As a team you can build in time off for training, lifting and maybe some game nights for practice. Maybe even the week off over Christmas.

I like the idea of being flexible with the schedule on doing something to get matches and having time off.

[Handles II]

For all that are complaining about the 45 minute rule, There's really only one place that can change that since WIAA doesn't go off on it's own and it's the NFHS.
Therefore you should be a member of the NFHS, and contact or become and area Rep.
However, based on the commuication I've had in previous years with my Reps, this has been brought up time and time again. NFHS says that it's going off of medical advice (I'm not sure from whom) and they aren't going to change it.

As for all the other ideas, well... some are good for coaches, some are good for some wreslters, and some are good for others. It's pretty tough to find a happy place for everyone on the team from brand-new Senior football player filling in your 182lb slot. The 106lb freshman who has been doing 75 matches a year for five years and now in high school is barely hanging on to being eligible because of grades. The new assistant coach that has a pregnant wife and two kids under four years old.

Generally, less of a time committment allows for more participants and fewer conflicts for coaches and families. It also might mean less aquisition of skills during said season.  If we look at the history of wrestling in this state and others in the midwest, participation is down. In WI we are at fewer than 1/2 of the high school wresters that we had through about three decades. Lots of reasons for that which has been discussed, but time commitment is always high on the list.  I didn't notice any "burn out" this year or "I gotta quit because I need to work". Perhaps why was because we had fewer events, and fewer weekends, which allowed kids to stay fresh, or stay on the team (or not have an extra excuse that is the final straw). 

I guess I'd rather see more kids come out and stay out, more coaches being able and willing to be involved, than to keep seeing numbers, and programs, continue to dwindle.

Gotta say that MN's 16 event/32 match set up this year has gotten really positive reviews. Not too much, not too little, and coaches have the flexibilty to schedule events that fit their team's needs. Something to be said for that.

[DocWrestling]

EVERY sport has trended toward more volume and intensity of competitions and year round training and it keeps getting into younger and younger ages.

I believe this has created better and more skilled athletes.
I believe this has created a much wider gap between the best athletes and the average athletes.
I believe this has reduced the number of participants in all sports and younger and younger ages.

I often think of youth wrestling tournaments and their evolution.
The 80's had fewer and smaller tournaments.  4 man brackets (not round Robin) so you got two matches.  You registered and were called to the bullpen.  You won a ribbon.  Only state tournament or national tournaments were in freestyle and greco.

Look what it is now from volume or tournaments and tournaments formats, the number of "national" tournaments, trackwrestling and profiles, awards, wrestling clubs, etc.

The problem in all sports is that the system to create the best athlete does not always mesh with the system to have the best team/program, and does not mesh with the system that might be in the best interest of the sport.  No system works ideally for both the year round committed athlete doing his favorite sport and the seasonal athlete that is just competing for fun.

[MNbadger]

"Gotta say that MN's 16 event/32 match set up this year has gotten really positive reviews. Not too much, not too little, and coaches have the flexibility to schedule events that fit their team's needs. Something to be said for that."


This was just for this year as an accommodation for COVID, just so you know.  Our best system was 18/36

[bulldog]

There you go Doc...I knew we were not that far off. I agree...wrestling tournaments and even duals could cut time. The idea of at school weigh-in is awesome...but each school would have to get a certified ref at the school ahead of time. That would be an obstacle. But brackets can basically be done ahead of time. We ran pre-register youth tournaments for years and weighed the kids the day of to make sure they hit the weight class they said they were. If they were off the didn't wrestle (pissed off parent but it was on them a bit)

The boys loved practice over Christmas...they seemed to prefer tougher ones. They said they didn't have to worry about weight over break so they could 100% focus on wrestling and fine tuning. But my boys maybe were odd...they hated "game night" said they were in the sport to wrestle...not to play games. They thought the games were good to distract k-2 youth practice and keep them interested but by HS they knew why they were in the room. They were fine with games after practice but not when they were there to get better on the mat.

I wonder if one day there will be a split. The "elite" wrestlers and the guys that show up just to be in a winter sport. They are both in the room now and it is tough to coach to make both happy. I wonder if one day the elite will move towards club and leave the HS wrestling to the "not as committed" wrestlers

And Yep...I remember the 80s tournaments...good times...

[Handles II]

"Gotta say that MN's 16 event/32 match set up this year has gotten really positive reviews. Not too much, not too little, and coaches have the flexibility to schedule events that fit their team's needs. Something to be said for that."


This was just for this year as an accommodation for COVID, just so you know.  Our best system was 18/36

Yep. And I would probably agree with your 2nd point. Either seems better than 7/7.

[DocWrestling]

I do think all sports are heading to elite wrestlers competing as part of clubs and not on their high school teams.  This already happens in hockey and soccer. 

Another great day to have a tournament would be Martin Luther King Day.  Lots of schools off that day and frees up the weekend prior!

[bulldog]

I do think all sports are heading to elite wrestlers competing as part of clubs and not on their high school teams.  This already happens in hockey and soccer. 

Another great day to have a tournament would be Martin Luther King Day.  Lots of schools off that day and frees up the weekend prior!

MLK Day is an interesting idea...

As much as my boys would have loved the club idea in HS I wonder what kind of mess it would be. I guess you are right with hockey and soccer. I think gymnastic has moved that way as well. And it seems boys swimming gets recruited from club more then HS teams. And I guess if it is recruiting for college I have to think wrestling gets more college coach exposure at Fargo than the WIAA state tournament.

[MNbadger]

" The idea of at school weigh-in is awesome...but each school would have to get a certified ref at the school ahead of time. That would be an obstacle. "
Why would you need a certified referee?  We did one or two seasons where we weighed in in the morning of a meet.  We simply needed a district administrator to witness the weigh ins.  We are requiring the same this year with our weigh ins.
The morning weigh ins were the best as then wrestlers were not moping around the lunch  room whining the day of the meet.