way too early 2021-2022 line up

Started by dad 2 5, February 20, 2021, 05:43:01 PM

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MNbadger

Everyone has their opinion.  Sanders is a four timer finishing as high as third (6th, 5th, 5th, 3rd).  Yes, Gross is a two time finalist but the difference between that and other finishes, especially third is usually a whisker difference at this level.  He also is experienced and respected as a coach.  Sanders also was a World Team member.  I am not arguing that Sanders is a vastly better coach/training partner.  I am saying he gives up nothing to Gross is this regard.  His qualifications and accomplishments are at minimum equal to Gross'.
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 09, 2021, 01:27:12 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on July 08, 2021, 08:14:43 PM
Well, they will be wrestling each other going forward.  Comparing trajectory, McKee is improving more/faster, winning six straight and pinning three(including Barnett) on his way to 3rd place.
His training partners give nothing up to Gross, one being four - time AA Zach Sanders.
The one thing I will say is that McKee in the past has had some horrible performances where he just looks so bad.  I think he looks like he is past that having watched last year's NCAA Tournament.
Quote from: Harris on July 08, 2021, 06:02:12 PM
"Chuckle if you want but if you are looking at matches wrestled, didn't McKee pin Barnett last time out???
I don't see McKee struggling with Barnett going forward.  I would not assume he'll pin Barnett but I see McKee as having made a big step in comparison to Barnett."

I see it the other way around.  I think Barnett is on a very high trajectory working with Gross every day.  He gets pinned because of his style of wrestling.  Once he figures out how to prevent those situations he will be even more dangerous and I think Gross is going to help make that happen. 

I don't think any opponent likes wrestling Barnett because he can launch you at any moment and he is not afraid to go big.  If I saw him in my side of the bracket, I would have to respect his wrestling ability at all times and would know I was in for a fight.  He is one of my favorite guys to watch right now and he is lethal when his opponents make certain mistakes regardless of how good they are which makes him exciting. 

Think of the progress he has made in the past few years.  It is super impressive and resulted in him becoming an All-American.  I really think he is going to take another monumental step forward this year and can wrestle with anyone in the country especially McKee who I also have a ton of respect for.
Give nothing up to Gross... except one is an all American and one is a 2x finalist. Also you bring up Gomez beating two guys ranked top 20. What is Polancos best win? Guaranteed it isn't close to top 40. McNally beat Krattiger already, but now Krattiger is favored to win.  You have really sound logic  ::)
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

vsmf2010

Quote from: wrastle63 on July 08, 2021, 04:27:45 PM
Don't be rational with MNBadger and actually use matches wrestled and understanding...  ;D

Reading the recent entry's on this string today reminded me of a saying my boss told me a long time ago...

"arguing with (fill in the blank) is like wrestling with a pig in mud. You both get dirty but the pigs likes it!"

MNbadger

I don't see this as arguing.  I made my points based on comparison of qualifications, accomplishments, and track record.  I see it as a debate.  The truth is, there are many with credentials who are/were not good coaches and those without the greatest credentials who are/were great coaches.
I was simply comparing the two individuals mentioned.
Quote from: vsmf2010 on July 09, 2021, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 08, 2021, 04:27:45 PM
Don't be rational with MNBadger and actually use matches wrestled and understanding...  ;D

Reading the recent entry's on this string today reminded me of a saying my boss told me a long time ago...

"arguing with (fill in the blank) is like wrestling with a pig in mud. You both get dirty but the pigs likes it!"
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

Harris

I think you made some really good points.  I really thought Minnesota may be in some trouble after what happened with J Rob but I am really excited for what's going on up there.  I see progress with both teams.

Quote from: MNbadger on July 09, 2021, 01:01:55 PM
I don't see this as arguing.  I made my points based on comparison of qualifications, accomplishments, and track record.  I see it as a debate.  The truth is, there are many with credentials who are/were not good coaches and those without the greatest credentials who are/were great coaches.
I was simply comparing the two individuals mentioned.
Quote from: vsmf2010 on July 09, 2021, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 08, 2021, 04:27:45 PM
Don't be rational with MNBadger and actually use matches wrestled and understanding...  ;D

Reading the recent entry's on this string today reminded me of a saying my boss told me a long time ago...

"arguing with (fill in the blank) is like wrestling with a pig in mud. You both get dirty but the pigs likes it!"

MNbadger

I agree whole-heartedly.  It is good for wrestling to have competitive programs, particularly rivalries like MN/WI.
Quote from: Harris on July 09, 2021, 04:05:04 PM
I think you made some really good points.  I really thought Minnesota may be in some trouble after what happened with J Rob but I am really excited for what's going on up there.  I see progress with both teams.

Quote from: MNbadger on July 09, 2021, 01:01:55 PM
I don't see this as arguing.  I made my points based on comparison of qualifications, accomplishments, and track record.  I see it as a debate.  The truth is, there are many with credentials who are/were not good coaches and those without the greatest credentials who are/were great coaches.
I was simply comparing the two individuals mentioned.
Quote from: vsmf2010 on July 09, 2021, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 08, 2021, 04:27:45 PM
Don't be rational with MNBadger and actually use matches wrestled and understanding...  ;D

Reading the recent entry's on this string today reminded me of a saying my boss told me a long time ago...

"arguing with (fill in the blank) is like wrestling with a pig in mud. You both get dirty but the pigs likes it!"
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

MakingABadgerer

Mnbadger says the goofers go 7/10 but the team score will be "very close". Is he calling for it 21-18 (all goofer decisions and all Badger pins)?  Using that logic, if Gable goes to the land of Vince McMahon, is mnbadger calling for a Badger team win while the goofers win 6/10?

MNbadger

Think of it like last year.  It should have been close but was not score-wise.
For next year, assuming our speculation is correct on the line ups, 174 and 141 are toss ups I am giving to MN.  If those both go to the Badgers, huge difference, right?
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

Harris

I've been thinking about what you wrote here since you posted.  I am not taking anything away from Sanders ability but as I watched Seth Gross over the years he really has a unique style and skill set.  He allows himself to get into very weird defensive positions and then has created somewhat unique counters to create offense.  So many times I have seen him allow people to get in on his legs and it ends up being sort of a trap for the other wrestler. 

What makes Gross so interesting as a coaching prospect is that if he can teach these skills to his athletes you will see huge improvements in the lighter weights which is exactly what I think we saw last year.  This is also why going forward I expect additional progress from Barnett, Burwick, and now Gomez. 

I heard Bono say he wasn't really a "technical" wrestler when he was younger on an interview.  I have also heard posters imply that he is more of a toughness and conditioning kind of coach versus teaching technique.  I see in Gross the potential to really complement Bono's coaching style because he seems to understand the nuances of wresting positions and technique.  If he can teach and communicate that to his athletes you will see some very impressive results in the future.  I am very excited on his potential coaching ability for this fact alone.  If you watch Barnett at the end of last season you can catch glimpses of Gross at different times.  I think just rolling around with these young wrestlers he is starting to have an impact and his style is rubbing off on them.

I am not sure if this post makes sense but I think Gross has a lot more potential to add value as a coach because of his unique style and the contrast to Bono's coaching style.  Comparing his past results compared to another coach really means nothing to me because great athletes don't always make great coaches.  The real test is whether Gross can teach wrestling and I am very optimistic based on this past year.

Quote from: MNbadger on July 09, 2021, 11:40:35 AM
Everyone has their opinion.  Sanders is a four timer finishing as high as third (6th, 5th, 5th, 3rd).  Yes, Gross is a two time finalist but the difference between that and other finishes, especially third is usually a whisker difference at this level.  He also is experienced and respected as a coach.  Sanders also was a World Team member.  I am not arguing that Sanders is a vastly better coach/training partner.  I am saying he gives up nothing to Gross is this regard.  His qualifications and accomplishments are at minimum equal to Gross'.
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 09, 2021, 01:27:12 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on July 08, 2021, 08:14:43 PM
Well, they will be wrestling each other going forward.  Comparing trajectory, McKee is improving more/faster, winning six straight and pinning three(including Barnett) on his way to 3rd place.
His training partners give nothing up to Gross, one being four - time AA Zach Sanders.
The one thing I will say is that McKee in the past has had some horrible performances where he just looks so bad.  I think he looks like he is past that having watched last year's NCAA Tournament.
Quote from: Harris on July 08, 2021, 06:02:12 PM
"Chuckle if you want but if you are looking at matches wrestled, didn't McKee pin Barnett last time out???
I don't see McKee struggling with Barnett going forward.  I would not assume he'll pin Barnett but I see McKee as having made a big step in comparison to Barnett."

I see it the other way around.  I think Barnett is on a very high trajectory working with Gross every day.  He gets pinned because of his style of wrestling.  Once he figures out how to prevent those situations he will be even more dangerous and I think Gross is going to help make that happen. 

I don't think any opponent likes wrestling Barnett because he can launch you at any moment and he is not afraid to go big.  If I saw him in my side of the bracket, I would have to respect his wrestling ability at all times and would know I was in for a fight.  He is one of my favorite guys to watch right now and he is lethal when his opponents make certain mistakes regardless of how good they are which makes him exciting. 

Think of the progress he has made in the past few years.  It is super impressive and resulted in him becoming an All-American.  I really think he is going to take another monumental step forward this year and can wrestle with anyone in the country especially McKee who I also have a ton of respect for.
Give nothing up to Gross... except one is an all American and one is a 2x finalist. Also you bring up Gomez beating two guys ranked top 20. What is Polancos best win? Guaranteed it isn't close to top 40. McNally beat Krattiger already, but now Krattiger is favored to win.  You have really sound logic  ::)

MakingABadgerer


Harris


wrastle63

Quote from: MNbadger on July 10, 2021, 11:38:44 AM
Think of it like last year.  It should have been close but was not score-wise.
For next year, assuming our speculation is correct on the line ups, 174 and 141 are toss ups I am giving to MN.  If those both go to the Badgers, huge difference, right?
How is 174 a toss up? McNally beat Krattiger 6-3 head to head with 3 takedowns to 0. McNally was a blood round guy last season and Krattiger didn't even qualify. I'm sure Krattiger will make adjustments/improvements, but McNally goes from the Kent State room/coaching to Wisconsin's with guys much better than he had previously. There is 0 information that says Krattiger should be favored.

MNbadger

As I said before, McNally did not wrestle in the Big Ten before.  We will see.  Also, we don't know that Krattiger will be the starter yet(Yes, I realize we are all speculating on both line ups).
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 10, 2021, 08:40:29 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on July 10, 2021, 11:38:44 AM
Think of it like last year.  It should have been close but was not score-wise.
For next year, assuming our speculation is correct on the line ups, 174 and 141 are toss ups I am giving to MN.  If those both go to the Badgers, huge difference, right?
How is 174 a toss up? McNally beat Krattiger 6-3 head to head with 3 takedowns to 0. McNally was a blood round guy last season and Krattiger didn't even qualify. I'm sure Krattiger will make adjustments/improvements, but McNally goes from the Kent State room/coaching to Wisconsin's with guys much better than he had previously. There is 0 information that says Krattiger should be favored.
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

wrastle63

Quote from: MNbadger on July 10, 2021, 10:25:08 PM
As I said before, McNally did not wrestle in the Big Ten before.  We will see.  Also, we don't know that Krattiger will be the starter yet(Yes, I realize we are all speculating on both line ups).
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 10, 2021, 08:40:29 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on July 10, 2021, 11:38:44 AM
Think of it like last year.  It should have been close but was not score-wise.
For next year, assuming our speculation is correct on the line ups, 174 and 141 are toss ups I am giving to MN.  If those both go to the Badgers, huge difference, right?
How is 174 a toss up? McNally beat Krattiger 6-3 head to head with 3 takedowns to 0. McNally was a blood round guy last season and Krattiger didn't even qualify. I'm sure Krattiger will make adjustments/improvements, but McNally goes from the Kent State room/coaching to Wisconsin's with guys much better than he had previously. There is 0 information that says Krattiger should be favored.
LOL

MNbadger

LOL?
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 11, 2021, 06:49:33 AM
Quote from: MNbadger on July 10, 2021, 10:25:08 PM
As I said before, McNally did not wrestle in the Big Ten before.  We will see.  Also, we don't know that Krattiger will be the starter yet(Yes, I realize we are all speculating on both line ups).
Quote from: wrastle63 on July 10, 2021, 08:40:29 PM
Quote from: MNbadger on July 10, 2021, 11:38:44 AM
Think of it like last year.  It should have been close but was not score-wise.
For next year, assuming our speculation is correct on the line ups, 174 and 141 are toss ups I am giving to MN.  If those both go to the Badgers, huge difference, right?
How is 174 a toss up? McNally beat Krattiger 6-3 head to head with 3 takedowns to 0. McNally was a blood round guy last season and Krattiger didn't even qualify. I'm sure Krattiger will make adjustments/improvements, but McNally goes from the Kent State room/coaching to Wisconsin's with guys much better than he had previously. There is 0 information that says Krattiger should be favored.
LOL
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

MakingABadgerer

It means he thinks you're funny.

174 will be interesting. I suspect both wrestlers will be extra motivated for this one.