UW Wrestling and AWA

[wrastle63]

If UW starts winning against the upper tier of the Big Ten, the wrestlers will want to come.  His problem right now is the same as any other coach, how does he build the program into a top tier program.  Can he do it without the support of some of the elite clubs and high schools around him?  Maybe.  Will it be easier if he has a good relationship with these clubs and high schools?  You bet.

Count me as one of the disappointed fans who was expecting great things when UW hired Bono and then Askren started working with the RTC.  It is really unfortunate to see that relationship deteriorate regardless of how it happened, what caused it, or who caused it.  I really thought UW was positioned to take the next step.  I am rooting for the Badgers either way and I am also rooting for the elite clubs and high schools to produce more high quality wrestlers.

I think next year can be the defining year in the UW program.  If Wick comes back and the new recruits produce, UW will be a very competitive team.  Unfortunately, this is the same thing we were hoping for with Barry Davis leading the program.  This year seems to have been a step in the wrong direction.

When I look at Penn State and Iowa, they are recruiting the best of the best from across the nation.  It is very hard to catch those types of programs just by trying to out work and out condition them.  UW needs to find a way to consistently recruit these elite athletes inside and outside of Wisconsin to produce the results everyone is hoping for.

I agree with the disappointment thought with Bono and Reader coaching at Ben at the RTC we would be able to jump quickly. I agree it doesn't really matter who, what, or how it happened it isn't good for our state or the program.

I will push back a little on the Barry Davis next year idea. I think this is a weird year obviously with COVID and guys lost an opportunity to compete at NCAAs last year. I also think some guys looked at the possibility of starting the season and having it shut down again so decided to grayshirt/olympic. If you add Wick to this lineup it is very competitive and looking at possible AAs in Wick, Weiler, Hillger with guys like Barnett, Model, and Krattiger who have made big jumps since last year and are ranked.

[Harris]

If UW starts winning against the upper tier of the Big Ten, the wrestlers will want to come.  His problem right now is the same as any other coach, how does he build the program into a top tier program.  Can he do it without the support of some of the elite clubs and high schools around him?  Maybe.  Will it be easier if he has a good relationship with these clubs and high schools?  You bet.

Count me as one of the disappointed fans who was expecting great things when UW hired Bono and then Askren started working with the RTC.  It is really unfortunate to see that relationship deteriorate regardless of how it happened, what caused it, or who caused it.  I really thought UW was positioned to take the next step.  I am rooting for the Badgers either way and I am also rooting for the elite clubs and high schools to produce more high quality wrestlers.

I think next year can be the defining year in the UW program.  If Wick comes back and the new recruits produce, UW will be a very competitive team.  Unfortunately, this is the same thing we were hoping for with Barry Davis leading the program.  This year seems to have been a step in the wrong direction.

When I look at Penn State and Iowa, they are recruiting the best of the best from across the nation.  It is very hard to catch those types of programs just by trying to out work and out condition them.  UW needs to find a way to consistently recruit these elite athletes inside and outside of Wisconsin to produce the results everyone is hoping for.

I agree with the disappointment thought with Bono and Reader coaching at Ben at the RTC we would be able to jump quickly. I agree it doesn't really matter who, what, or how it happened it isn't good for our state or the program.

I will push back a little on the Barry Davis next year idea. I think this is a weird year obviously with COVID and guys lost an opportunity to compete at NCAAs last year. I also think some guys looked at the possibility of starting the season and having it shut down again so decided to grayshirt/olympic. If you add Wick to this lineup it is very competitive and looking at possible AAs in Wick, Weiler, Hillger with guys like Barnett, Model, and Krattiger who have made big jumps since last year and are ranked.

Totally agree

[BuckyMatt]

Looking for some input on a topic that some of us have been kicking around the last couple of weeks...

Does the head wrestling coach at UW need to have a positive relationship with Ben Askren and AWA(this includes Max and the other coaches) in order to have success?  Particularly in regards to in-state recruiting and successful, well attended summer camps.

Another take on this is why can't the head of AWA have a good relationship with multiple UW coaches?
 
Does the head coach at AWA need to have a positive relationship with Chris Bono and UW (this includes Jon Reader and Seth Gross) in order to get his kids the most scholarship opportunities and assure they can wrestle close to home if they so choose?

Quit simping for Bono.

Cool slang Bro, aren't you hip!

[Gizmo]

Gizmo, Give some examples. Site sources for your baloney. I think you are making it up. You just stir the pot and I find you to be feckless. What's your beef? You and W73 both need to site your sources. You're not some media in court.
Maybe you should get out there and do the job. You seem to know all the questions. How about the answers?

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

FYI...Wrestle_73 and I worked it out.  She's not mad at me at all. 

[wrestler_73]

Wow Narwal..you are pretty fragile it seems.  The reaction to questions about the program and the clear breakdown between the program and the #1 club in the state is clear.  Their is a lot of speculation and interest without clear facts when it comes to basketball and football...yet we are just supposed to follow like a religion with wrestling?

I think we should be a bit concerned about the direction of the UW Wrestling program. Especially after a very promising start.  I am hopeful things get better.

And...Gizmo.....I believe was a 98 pounder in the day.  Enough said.

[mkm13]

Bono's number one job at UW is to get UW to compete at a high level.  It would obviously be easiest if the UW coaches had a great relationship with all local clubs/coaches AND those local clubs/coaches produced the talent UW needs to compete at a high level. I wish it meant more, but as long as Bono can recruit well nationally it probably matters less than people think.

College wrestling is very unique at the highest level. Almost all top programs recruit nationally and rely on in state a small amount.  Very different from UW football for example.  There is only 9.9 scholarship for 10 weights.  Based on the current roster make up and current holes in the lineup, top teams have to look nationally to get the guys you want. If we have a hole at 125 and minimal scholarship money, we cant throw that money at a good local 165 pounder if we are already invested there.  From what i understand, Bono has not given out scholarships to in state wrestlers at the same level the previous coaching staff did. Is that the right thing to do?  At this point it is hard to argue against it based on the previous results of high school wrestlers from WI. Wrestlers who have  went on to AA in college or produce significant points at NCAAs have been very few and far between. Hopefully that will change at a consistent level.


Unfortunately, if the state only produces 5 to 10 NCAA points each year, you cant spend a lot of your time trying to build a wall around it.

[wrestlemania]

"Ben may very well outlast Bono and company and if history is an indicator, Ben will have an issue and not a great relationship with whomever the next head coach is too."

Bridges have been burned.  Just because you wrestled for a guy doesn't mean you will remain loyal.  Loyalty is a two way street. Having talked to several club coaches across this state.  I am not sure it's just AWA that UW needs to be concerned about.

Bono's number one job at UW is to get UW to compete at a high level.  It would obviously be easiest if the UW coaches had a great relationship with all local clubs/coaches AND those local clubs/coaches produced the talent UW needs to compete at a high level. I wish it meant more, but as long as Bono can recruit well nationally it probably matters less than people think.

"From what i understand, Bono has not given out scholarships to in state wrestlers at the same level the previous coaching staff did. Is that the right thing to do?  At this point it is hard to argue against it based on the previous results of high school wrestlers from WI. Wrestlers who have went on to AA in college or produce significant points at NCAAs have been very few and far between. Hopefully that will change at a consistent level."

I agree with the disappointment thought with Bono and Reader coaching at Ben at the RTC we would be able to jump quickly. I agree it doesn't really matter who, what, or how it happened it isn't good for our state or the program.

(Sigh)When you have to keep repeating yourself stating that UW's wrestling challenges will not go away until we find a coach who steps ups and deals with them, let's just say you don't feel vindicated, just frustrated.

"Get rid Barry and everything will get better!" Yes that's what practically everyone said. Now does it sink in that's not the case? Coaches and club managers complaining UW is not signing enough in-state kids or taking in walk-ons? I just got off another thread complaining about this. Here's the crux of the problem that's been there since the early 1990s: If Wisconsin is limited to how many kids it can bring into the wrestling room (you know, the one which has pillars in it!) then you can't just sweep in a whole bunch of in-state kids as walk-ons or roster fillers. If the coaching staff is forced to be selective both in terms of roster size and academics, then they need to be given the space and opportunity to bring in the athletes they feel fit the program best they wish to develop and then judge the results. So far, me personally I'm not impressed but the staff does deserve the time to fashion the program as it feels is the best to be successful. Again, the results will speak for themselves. 

Would it be easier if the UW head coach got along with all the coaches at the junior levels across the state. Absolutely! As we saw with BD, their attitudes toward him did not help the situation and given BD's credentials I thought rather disgraceful on their part. I've seen this with other college sports too many times. You have to court them, butt-kissing as you may think it may well be. Because they can be your worst enemies and you don't want that. Because if there is an athlete in state you may want, they'll make it very hard for you to recruit that athlete.  If Bono's pissed off these coaches already after three seasons, what's his excuse? Was it really worth dicking around McDonough on his job status? People remember things like that! You cut-off your in-state nose just remember, it means recruiting more kids out of state who will demand full rides which take up a limited number of scholarships and fewer wrestlers behind them in case something happens. It's telling that most of UW's best wrestlers since the Rein-era have come from out of state but not surprising given the attitudes involved on both sides. BD was hurt by the same problems and Bono had a chance to fix it. That he hasn't
and may have well made things worse from what people are saying is quite disturbing. Only a strong in-state high school and club scene feeding UW both great and good wrestlers connecting the state and program will work over the long-term.

That being said, it doesn't help the situation when one of those club leaders may well be very prominent but has the maturity level of a child, a child prone to mean streaks and vendettas. Twitter-attacking a kids tournament? Come on! Don't you have better things to do with your time? What's wrong with using social media to promote instead of tear down? It would be difficult for any collegiate coach to deal with a person like this and you can't please everyone. If I was coaching I would simply to the heads of AWA: "We would love to have AWA kids attend UW. We promise to take care of them, make sure to give them an education and provide the best instruction and competition than anyplace else. But we will not bend over backward for them. What they get out of UW wrestling they will earn and pay forward. And deep down you wouldn't want it any other way. We may not agree on everything but at least we will earn your respect and that's all we ask for and will give back in return." There, is that so hard? Sheesh what a sandbox!

So again, we're back in a whole "next year" situation. I agree its different than before because of the pandemic but in a way it isn't because we're putting a lot of expectations on newcomers being as good as we think and hope and experience wrestlers getting better and everyone not getting hurt. I hope that's the case but just remember this, nobody, at least out of the elite of the B1G or the country is standing pat either waiting for UW to finally emerge again in collegiate wrestling. It's up to the coaching staff to take that potential and turn it into success. We'll see if they can do it.

[MNbadger]

The success or lack of success is not on any state wrestling club.  Nor is it on any owner/operator of a club.
Wrestling(and any other college sports is based on recruiting, pure and simple).
As far as in state recruiting....I just quickly looked at three websites for 20-21:
PSU: 34 on roster, 14 from Pennsylvania.
U of Minnesota: 32 on roster, 14 from Minnesota.
U of Iowa: 32 on roster, 10 from Iowa.
U of Wisconsin: 24 on roster, 17 from Wisconsin.
The issue might be that there are too many recruited from Wisconsin.  I am not saying this to be a jerk. 
Someone mentioned that UW limits the roster.  Is it limited to 24?  Compared to PSU(34), U of M(32), U of Iowa(32) this is pathetic, in fact in my opinion, impossible to compete with. 
Were I qualified, I would never take this job on if what it looks like is the case.
Is there someone out there with knowledge of this?

[The Legend]

The short answer to your question "Is Wisconsin limited to a roster size of 24"? No they are not.

[bigoil]

The success or lack of success is not on any state wrestling club.  Nor is it on any owner/operator of a club.
Wrestling(and any other college sports is based on recruiting, pure and simple).
As far as in state recruiting....I just quickly looked at three websites for 20-21:
PSU: 34 on roster, 14 from Pennsylvania.
U of Minnesota: 32 on roster, 14 from Minnesota.
U of Iowa: 32 on roster, 10 from Iowa.
U of Wisconsin: 24 on roster, 17 from Wisconsin.
The issue might be that there are too many recruited from Wisconsin.  I am not saying this to be a jerk. 
Someone mentioned that UW limits the roster.  Is it limited to 24?  Compared to PSU(34), U of M(32), U of Iowa(32) this is pathetic, in fact in my opinion, impossible to compete with. 
Were I qualified, I would never take this job on if what it looks like is the case.
Is there someone out there with knowledge of this?

WI is limited, I recall 30-32. Lower this year likely due to Covid.

[The Legend]

It's all title nine based.  It changes yearly.  But typically never falls below 30 for a school such as Wisconsin.

[npope]

It's all title nine based.  It changes yearly.  But typically never falls below 30 for a school such as Wisconsin.

I was under the impression that the specifics of the application to any given sport were decided by each respective school. That is, Title IX laid out specific mandates and it was up to each school how to meet those parameters. For example, a given school could "short" the men's track team and inflate the wrestling team's numbers, or vice versa, Thus, some schools have bigger wrestling teams while others might have a relatively large track squad - but the overall number of male participants was the basis for assessment of compliance. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong on this understanding.

[bigoil]

It's all title nine based.  It changes yearly.  But typically never falls below 30 for a school such as Wisconsin.

I was under the impression that the specifics of the application to any given sport were decided by each respective school. That is, Title IX laid out specific mandates and it was up to each school how to meet those parameters. For example, a given school could "short" the men's track team and inflate the wrestling team's numbers, or vice versa, Thus, some schools have bigger wrestling teams while others might have a relatively large track squad - but the overall number of male participants was the basis for assessment of compliance. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong on this understanding.

UW Is school specific in regards to roster size.  The restrictions on size are imposed by UW not NCAA.

[The Legend]

I know it used to be that way.  Not sure that is still true. It still is based off title nine and I believe the number of incoming female students? It's been a bit.

[bigoil]

I know it used to be that way.  Not sure that is still true. It still is based off title nine and I believe the number of incoming female students? It's been a bit.

There were restrictions put in place for wrestling that date back to the 1992? Infractions. Long memories at UW I guess. It doesn't move up or down based on enrollment that I'm aware of, rather a set #.