D3 Team State

[bigoil]

Saw some great wrestling at team state.  Great job by everyone.

My one minor complaint is why isn't it announced how the determination came to be for the Coleman/Fennimore match?  The officials went through it to come to a determination that Coleman won on criteria.  Can't that information be shared and announced?

It was announced. I heard it, criteria I, most first points scored. 14-13 Coleman.

Looked at it today, Coleman scored first in 8 matches. I believe it was 5 TD, 1 Reversal, 2 escapes. Fennimore I believe had 5 TD and 1 3 pt NF.

[Barou]

Saw some great wrestling at team state.  Great job by everyone.

My one minor complaint is why isn't it announced how the determination came to be for the Coleman/Fennimore match?  The officials went through it to come to a determination that Coleman won on criteria.  Can't that information be shared and announced?

It was announced. I heard it, criteria I, most first points scored. 14-13 Coleman.

Looked at it today, Coleman scored first in 8 matches. I believe it was 5 TD, 1 Reversal, 2 escapes. Fennimore I believe had 5 TD and 1 3 pt NF.

They must have announced it after I left.  Thanks for the reply.

[thequad]

Rule 9-2 2019-20 NFHS Wrestling Rules
SECTION 2 TEAM SCORING (Tie-Breaker Criterion)
ART. 2 . . . In dual-meet competition, if teams have identical scores, the following team
tie-breaking system shall be used to determine the winner.
a. The team whose opposing wrestlers or team personnel has been penalized the greater
number of team points for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct shall be declared the
winner.
b. The team whose opposing head coach has been penalized the greater
number of team points for coach misconduct or unsportsmanlike conduct shall
be declared the winner.
c. The team whose opposing wrestlers were penalized the greater number of
match points for unsportsmanlike conduct shall be declared the winner.
d. The team having won the greater number of matches (including forfeits)
shall be declared the winner.
e. The team having accumulated the greater total number of falls, defaults, forfeits
and disqualifications shall be declared the winner.
f. The team giving up the least number of forfeits.
g. The team having the greater number of technical falls shall be declared the winner.
h. The team having the greater number of major decisions shall be declared the winner.
i. The team having the greater number (total match points) of first-point(s) scored shall
be declared the winner.
j. The team having the greater number of points for near-falls shall be declared
the winner.
k. The team having the greater number of takedowns shall be declared the winner.
l. The team having the greater number of reversals shall be declared the winner.
m. The team having the greater number of escapes shall be declared the winner.
n. The team whose opponent has been penalized the greater number of points for stalling.
o. The team whose opponent has been warned more often for stalling.
p. The team whose opponent has the greater number of points for all other infractions
(i.e. false starts).
q. If none of the above resolves the tie, a flip of a disk will determine the winner.
Upon determining the winning team by use of the tiebreaking system, a single team
point shall be added to the prevailing team. The method of recording the score in breaking
team ties shall be the score followed by the letter of the criterion that broke the tie (e.g.
Team A-16; Team B-17, criterion e).

Thanks, Tom.

[The wrestler]

Great post from Lombardi. Reading it a few times I first disagree with him and after I thought about it. He is right Coleman being on the win side but how would they feel on the flip side of it. This is a perfect time to change it up again. Perfect time to drop to 13 wt classes and this would solve a big problem. It would also solve another problem wrestling has is filling 14 wt classes. Who would want to in a Team State Championship lose by a coin flip?  It would be embarassment  to the WIAA for sure. So please fix it

[CLC FAN]

They do declare co-champs in lieu of a coinflip.

From the WI winter season regulations:


Ties in Dual Competition During State Team Tournaments
In the event there is a tie in dual competition during the sectional and State phases of competition, National Federation dual meet tie-breaking criteria shall be applied to determine a winner (NF Rule 9-2-2)
Note 1:
If none of the listed criteria resolve the tie in quarterfinal and semifinal competition, an official will meet with captain of each team in center of mat and break tie by flipping colored disc with green representing home team and red representing visiting team.

Note 2:
STATE Championship Finals: NF tie breaking criteria will be applied. If after all NF tie breaking criteria have been applied a tie remains unbroken - Co-Champions will be declared in lieu of flipping a colored disc.

[ramjet]

The D3 Team State Championship match between Coleman and Fennimore was one of the most exciting matchups in Wisconsin wrestling history!  The back and forth chess match was entertaining and added a lot of energy to the battle of 2 giants!  Some background on the matchup. Fennimore had 9 State Individual Qualifiers and 9 seniors in their starting lineup. Coleman had 10 state qualifiers and 3 seniors in their starting lineup. Coleman moved 3 primarily JV wrestlers into their lineup and had one of their hammers on standby that did not wrestle who would've definitely impacted the outcome.  I counted up a total of 7 wrestlers for Coleman that wrestled up a weight for the dual.  At the end of a back and forth chess match each team pulled out 7 victories.  Pins, Technical Falls and 8 levels of criteria brought the match to the 9th level of criteria (most first points in each match scored; 14 for Coleman and 13 for Fennimore) tipped the scales to Coleman for a dramatic 10 minute delay at the end of the last match to determine the State Champion! 
As exciting as it was for Coleman (the team I was rooting for), I believe this level of determining a State Champion has got to change. Fennimore wrestled their butts off also and at the end of the night had an outright tie in the official team score and in my opinion could have easily layed claim to a shared state team championship.  I don't have a problem with the 1st 5 levels of criteria but at some point it shouldn't come down to such trivial things to determine who should be the State Champion. I would hope that the coaches association and WIAA would consider a change in the criteria to name a Co-State Champion after only a few levels of criteria. It's not fair to any team in the future to win or lose based on many of the criteria all the way to the last level believe it or not - A COIN TOSS

Are you suggesting a coin flip determine the winner?

I hope not a technically well wrestled dual that had so much excitement and in the end the team that wrestled better more points scored first won. You reference the number of seniors. Why? What difference does that make other than those seniors should have scored more points. I think both teams did well Fennimore fell a little short in this world there are winners and losers unless you are suggesting we just give trophy to whoever shows up?

Great job by both teams the more disappointing thing was the lack of local media coverage .......

[tyben]

It is a little weird to determine a winner based on who scored first, almost makes more sense to award based on who scored more points last.  Isn't the last period when you find out who has the most heart and wants it more?  Kind of weird that in freestyle/greco ties the winner comes down to who scored last as well.  Really though, other than number matches won, tie breakers in a dual meet have no value of determining a better team.

[ramjet]

Never heard a coach say "get that first take down" ?

Criteria has no value in determining the better team ? WINNER is the better team that dual.

This is ridiculous the arguments maybe we just give everyone a trophy for showing up.......

[factfinder]

Great post from Lombardi. Reading it a few times I first disagree with him and after I thought about it. He is right Coleman being on the win side but how would they feel on the flip side of it. This is a perfect time to change it up again. Perfect time to drop to 13 wt classes and this would solve a big problem. It would also solve another problem wrestling has is filling 14 wt classes. Who would want to in a Team State Championship lose by a coin flip?  It would be embarassment  to the WIAA for sure. So please fix it

They are not dropping to 13 weight classes!!!!!! Last season wrestling grew nation wide by 1860 wrestlers(boys) and 68 new teams!!! Since they went to 14 weight classes in 2002 the number of wrestlers nation wide has increased from 229,000 to 247,000. In the mid 90's we were at our lowest numbers nationally and we saw a dramatic spike when we went to 13 weight classes and we have seen a steady incline or stable numbers since. Before we went to 14 weight classes we saw huge peaks and Valleys with the participation numbers, we experienced record high's followed with record low's.
In the 2019 season Boys Wrestling was the 3rd fastest growing sport behind only Track and Soccer!!
The other reason the NHFS will not drop weight classes is because when they dropped to 8/9 football for small struggling town's they ended up still co-oping at a extremely higher rate then larger schools at 11 man.  Dropping weight classes will not help small school's as much as co-oping will, this has been proven in MN. Minnesota has stayed between 8000-8600 wrestlers for the past 40 years and has about 345 school still participating in wrestling but a lot less teams. The number of team's has not effected participation at all, as a matter a fact some of the years they have seen a decline in teams they have seen a spike in participation.

[ElectricGuy]

Great post from Lombardi. Reading it a few times I first disagree with him and after I thought about it. He is right Coleman being on the win side but how would they feel on the flip side of it. This is a perfect time to change it up again. Perfect time to drop to 13 wt classes and this would solve a big problem. It would also solve another problem wrestling has is filling 14 wt classes. Who would want to in a Team State Championship lose by a coin flip?  It would be embarassment  to the WIAA for sure. So please fix it

They are not dropping to 13 weight classes!!!!!! Last season wrestling grew nation wide by 1860 wrestlers(boys) and 68 new teams!!! Since they went to 14 weight classes in 2002 the number of wrestlers nation wide has increased from 229,000 to 247,000. In the mid 90's we were at our lowest numbers nationally and we saw a dramatic spike when we went to 13 weight classes and we have seen a steady incline or stable numbers since. Before we went to 14 weight classes we saw huge peaks and Valleys with the participation numbers, we experienced record high's followed with record low's.
In the 2019 season Boys Wrestling was the 3rd fastest growing sport behind only Track and Soccer!!
The other reason the NHFS will not drop weight classes is because when they dropped to 8/9 football for small struggling town's they ended up still co-oping at a extremely higher rate then larger schools at 11 man.  Dropping weight classes will not help small school's as much as co-oping will, this has been proven in MN. Minnesota has stayed between 8000-8600 wrestlers for the past 40 years and has about 345 school still participating in wrestling but a lot less teams. The number of team's has not effected participation at all, as a matter a fact some of the years they have seen a decline in teams they have seen a spike in participation.

Nicely said and researched out....

[ramjet]

Great post from Lombardi. Reading it a few times I first disagree with him and after I thought about it. He is right Coleman being on the win side but how would they feel on the flip side of it. This is a perfect time to change it up again. Perfect time to drop to 13 wt classes and this would solve a big problem. It would also solve another problem wrestling has is filling 14 wt classes. Who would want to in a Team State Championship lose by a coin flip?  It would be embarassment  to the WIAA for sure. So please fix it

They are not dropping to 13 weight classes!!!!!! Last season wrestling grew nation wide by 1860 wrestlers(boys) and 68 new teams!!! Since they went to 14 weight classes in 2002 the number of wrestlers nation wide has increased from 229,000 to 247,000. In the mid 90's we were at our lowest numbers nationally and we saw a dramatic spike when we went to 13 weight classes and we have seen a steady incline or stable numbers since. Before we went to 14 weight classes we saw huge peaks and Valleys with the participation numbers, we experienced record high's followed with record low's.
In the 2019 season Boys Wrestling was the 3rd fastest growing sport behind only Track and Soccer!!
The other reason the NHFS will not drop weight classes is because when they dropped to 8/9 football for small struggling town's they ended up still co-oping at a extremely higher rate then larger schools at 11 man.  Dropping weight classes will not help small school's as much as co-oping will, this has been proven in MN. Minnesota has stayed between 8000-8600 wrestlers for the past 40 years and has about 345 school still participating in wrestling but a lot less teams. The number of team's has not effected participation at all, as a matter a fact some of the years they have seen a decline in teams they have seen a spike in participation.

Nicely done. In fact they should build from this and require all youth tournaments be held as dual meet format. Then we would see wrestlers develop and participation increase across the state.

[littleguy301]

Never heard a coach say "get that first take down" ?

Criteria has no value in determining the better team ? WINNER is the better team that dual.

This is ridiculous the arguments maybe we just give everyone a trophy for showing up.......

This could also be in the stats.

In 3 minute matches the person that scores first is 92% chane to be the winner.
In 1, 2, 2 it is 83%
In a 6 minute it is like 75%

So score first the numbers are in your favor

[tyben]

Scoring first is important, but so is scoring last.  Why in international wrestling is scoring last more important?  Either way when you get to criteria like this it really doesn't correlate with being a better wrestler or team.  Team gpa makes more sense than most first points when determining a better team.  I don't like ties in football, soccer, hockey, etc... because there is a way to find out who the winner is by playing until someone scores last but when it comes to a silly criteria that has no bearing on who is actually better, than a tie makes sense.

As for giving everyone a trophy, they all did get a trophy because they won their regional.  I have no dog in the fight either but did watch the dual and it truly was one of the best I've seen.

[roughandtough]

Just throwing this out there what if team state wrestled to a true second place?  I know indy state doesn't do it, but should they?

[The wrestler]

Rule 9-2 2019-20 NFHS Wrestling Rules
SECTION 2 TEAM SCORING (Tie-Breaker Criterion)
ART. 2 . . . In dual-meet competition, if teams have identical scores, the following team
tie-breaking system shall be used to determine the winner.
a. The team whose opposing wrestlers or team personnel has been penalized the greater
number of team points for flagrant or unsportsmanlike conduct shall be declared the
winner.
b. The team whose opposing head coach has been penalized the greater
number of team points for coach misconduct or unsportsmanlike conduct shall
be declared the winner.
c. The team whose opposing wrestlers were penalized the greater number of
match points for unsportsmanlike conduct shall be declared the winner.
d. The team having won the greater number of matches (including forfeits)
shall be declared the winner.
e. The team having accumulated the greater total number of falls, defaults, forfeits
and disqualifications shall be declared the winner.
f. The team giving up the least number of forfeits.
g. The team having the greater number of technical falls shall be declared the winner.
h. The team having the greater number of major decisions shall be declared the winner.
i. The team having the greater number (total match points) of first-point(s) scored shall
be declared the winner.
j. The team having the greater number of points for near-falls shall be declared
the winner.
k. The team having the greater number of takedowns shall be declared the winner.
l. The team having the greater number of reversals shall be declared the winner.
m. The team having the greater number of escapes shall be declared the winner.
n. The team whose opponent has been penalized the greater number of points for stalling.
o. The team whose opponent has been warned more often for stalling.
p. The team whose opponent has the greater number of points for all other infractions
(i.e. false starts).
q. If none of the above resolves the tie, a flip of a disk will determine the winner.
Upon determining the winning team by use of the tiebreaking system, a single team
point shall be added to the prevailing team. The method of recording the score in breaking
team ties shall be the score followed by the letter of the criterion that broke the tie (e.g.
Team A-16; Team B-17, criterion e).