Regional Observations

[MNbadger]

8 Sections for each division
Weekend I Section Team Duals (We do a pigtail on Wednesday) Friday three rounds
Section champs go to state (8 team state bracket)
Weekend II Section Individual Tournament (Friday/Saturday)
Top two per weight go to state (16 man state bracket)
Weekend III "State"
Thursday Team Dual Championships
Friday/Saturday Individual Championships
This seems much simpler than the suggestions for changing the present WI. System than the ones I have seen mentioned (especially with some getting byes, etc.).

[Oldtimer]

I like the silver division rule.  Maybe, if possible, the winner of the silver bracket gets a wrestle off against the lowest gold team qualifier?  Like final X.

Just a thought.

[nutman]

All Great Ideas:  Here are some thoughts.  This is with a D2 and D3 slant, but could be considered in D1.

There are two views to consider.   The strength of the teams and the strength of each weight class.   First of all, I believe everyone deserves a shot or individuals will be looking to pad records or sit kids out to hit that cut off.    With that said, when we hear about a tough regional the imbalance in teams is what dominates the conversation.  Within many team sports, they seed to create a greater liklihood of the toughest teams meeting later on the trail. 

What if each of the sites were determined ahead of time then we seed the teams in that sectional and assign them similar to team sports.  In many cases that also takes care of the individuals though it wouldn't be perfect. Then we work around the school district's seeds that are hosting.   

Regional A - Seed 1, 8, 9, 16, 17, 24, 25
Regional B   Seed 2, 7, 10, 15, 18, 23, 26
Regional C  Seed 3, 6, 11, 14, 19,22,27
Regional D  Seed 4, 5, 12, 13, 20, 21, 28

That would be the basic premise, but if the host school was one of the seeds then that group with the corresponding seed would go to that regional.   

A lot of advantages to this balance.  Basketball makes it work, I think wrestling could.

[wrastle63]

All Great Ideas:  Here are some thoughts.  This is with a D2 and D3 slant, but could be considered in D1.

There are two views to consider.   The strength of the teams and the strength of each weight class.   First of all, I believe everyone deserves a shot or individuals will be looking to pad records or sit kids out to hit that cut off.    With that said, when we hear about a tough regional the imbalance in teams is what dominates the conversation.  Within many team sports, they seed to create a greater liklihood of the toughest teams meeting later on the trail. 

What if each of the sites were determined ahead of time then we seed the teams in that sectional and assign them similar to team sports.  In many cases that also takes care of the individuals though it wouldn't be perfect. Then we work around the school district's seeds that are hosting.   

Regional A - Seed 1, 8, 9, 16, 17, 24, 25
Regional B   Seed 2, 7, 10, 15, 18, 23, 26
Regional C  Seed 3, 6, 11, 14, 19,22,27
Regional D  Seed 4, 5, 12, 13, 20, 21, 28

That would be the basic premise, but if the host school was one of the seeds then that group with the corresponding seed would go to that regional.   

A lot of advantages to this balance.  Basketball makes it work, I think wrestling could.

EXACTLY.

Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.

[NoFooForU]

EXACTLY.

Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.

Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1.  Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port.  Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches.  And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional).  So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.

[ChargerDad]

EXACTLY.

Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.

Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1.  Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port.  Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches.  And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional).  So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.

In D2, in the last rankings prior to Regionals, 6 of the top 12 teams were in the same sectional.    3 of those teams got bounced in Regionals (Freedom, Luxemburg-Casco, Wittenberg-Birnamwood, all losing to other ranked teams at regionals), and Oconto Falls entered the current rankings, so 4 teams at Team Sectionals, all ranked, 3 get bounced, 1 gets to move to state.  I don't know how you fix any of that until the WIAA decides it cares about more than finding the best team, and outside of the way the Regional champion is picked, the current system does that.  As fans, coaches, and wrestlers, we care more about the advancement to sectionals and state than the WIAA seems to..    The big hole with their stance is picking the best Regional dual team based on an individual tourney, which in some cases might actually eliminate a dual team with a better chance of winning a state title.

[Numbers]

Need to eliminate individual regionals.
D1-16 man brackets, must win first match (make quarters) to wrestle back.
D2/3-32 man brackets, must also advance to quarters to wrestle back.

[DocWrestling]

Need to eliminate individual regionals.
D1-16 man brackets, must win first match (make quarters) to wrestle back.
D2/3-32 man brackets, must also advance to quarters to wrestle back.

My point is why have #1 wrestle against #16 in first round-  We all know what that result will be.  Why have #1 wrestle against #32?

Wouldn't the bottom 50% just rather against each other for extra quality matches versus being a sacrificial lamb for the top seeds to pad their record?

You could even give all wrestlers the choice?  Do you want to wrestle in the gold division to try to make it to state or would you rather wrestle in the silver division.  I would bet more would choose silver division than the gold division.

We need more "silver" divisions at all tournaments.  I think it would help with growth of wrestlers and improve retention.

[madeyson]

EXACTLY.

Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.

Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1.  Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port.  Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches.  And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional).  So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.

DePere actually got beat by Bay Port in their regional at Green Bay Preble. However, Kimberly - another solid team - did get beat by Kaukauna at the Kimberly regional. I do like what Minnesota does with team sectionals - and then team and individual state on the same weekend. I am sure there are some negatives I am missing.

[emmitmac]

EXACTLY.

Incredibly hard to make it 100% even for all individuals, but if you at least divide the top teams that would make a huge difference. At least get the top 8 seperated so you get the best teams to team sectionals.

Yes DePere edged out by 2.5 points at regionals by Bayport, a team that lost the dual 40-27. With 12 of those 27 by forfeit, though 6 were going to happen anyway. There has to be a better system than one that leaves the fifth ranked team home on Tuesday

Anything to prevent the situation we are in now with D1.  Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Burlington, and Bay Port.  Two of the top 6 teams in state will get bounced in Sectional matches.  And, let us not forget about De Pere (#5 last week) that couldn't make it out of it's Regional (lost to Kaukauna at individual regional).  So, all in, 3 of the top 6 teams would be out before the final 8.

DePere actually got beat by Bay Port in their regional at Green Bay Preble. However, Kimberly - another solid team - did get beat by Kaukauna at the Kimberly regional. I do like what Minnesota does with team sectionals - and then team and individual state on the same weekend. I am sure there are some negatives I am missing.

[ramjet]

So wrestling is hurting for numbers and you want to allow State tournament participation by excluding a larger portion of wrestlers? Or categorizing them by records? 

How about the kid that got hurt in football rehabs to come back and could place state but his record is non-existent. Exclude him?

How about the kid that wrestles nothing but top,tier competition record Amy not reflect it but he is good wrestler put him the silver division? Let a kid go on that has a 40-1 record but wrestled all weak tournaments? Gold division?

My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....

[MTA]

So wrestling is hurting for numbers and you want to allow State tournament participation by excluding a larger portion of wrestlers? Or categorizing them by records? 

How about the kid that got hurt in football rehabs to come back and could place state but his record is non-existent. Exclude him?

How about the kid that wrestles nothing but top,tier competition record Amy not reflect it but he is good wrestler put him the silver division? Let a kid go on that has a 40-1 record but wrestled all weak tournaments? Gold division?

My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....

Amen.

[NoFooForU]

Thank you madeyson. my information was flawed, but you saw my point and helped the conversation by clearing it up.

[DocWrestling]

So wrestling is hurting for numbers and you want to allow State tournament participation by excluding a larger portion of wrestlers? Or categorizing them by records? 

How about the kid that got hurt in football rehabs to come back and could place state but his record is non-existent. Exclude him?

How about the kid that wrestles nothing but top,tier competition record Amy not reflect it but he is good wrestler put him the silver division? Let a kid go on that has a 40-1 record but wrestled all weak tournaments? Gold division?

My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....

None of those wrestlers would be eliminated from trying to qualify for state in any system I would support.  I would never want to eliminate any wrestler with goals of making it to state. Nobody is going to eliminate a kid like Mesenbrink or a kid that goes out and wrestles a tough schedule.   But that is 30% of varsity wrestlers at most.  We are not going to lose those wrestlers.  Wrestling does have a huge retention problem amongst that other 70%.    Heck I would just let the wrestlers choose which division "gold" or "silver" based on what there goals are and how they would like to end the year.  Ask the wrestlers if they want to go wrestle the #1 seed or would they rather end the year with matches against kids similar in talent.   Look at all the kids that did not qualify for sectionals and how their season ends.  Think about those that did qualify for sectionals and know they have no chance of winning their first match on Saturday and will be one and done.  Talk to those kids and I bet they would choose to wrestle in a silver bracket instead and have a chance to have some quality matches with hope of getting their hand raised a couple more times.

To me it is a win-win.  Good for the lower tier wrestlers and better for the upper tier wrestlers because they can wrestle a supersectional all in one day and not have geography be as big of a factor.  Wrestling wins overall because it frees up a weekend for all or better yet allows time for a team dual state tournament process that is more fair.

[DocWrestling]

My goodness just take a week or so and enjoy the ride, let this thing play out .....

You state "enjoy the ride".  My point is that facts prove that many are not "enjoying the ride" because retention of wrestlers AND coaches is a problem.