Why I support This Team, This Coaching Staff, and the BRTC

[leg turk]

Didn't they just finish like top 4 in the tournament 2 years ago?  I know they were young last year, and lost Carlini , plus a couple other big hitters.  I see they have the # 4 class for 2018 recruits.   

Seems like they had a great player, and now they're in "wait till next year" mode?

Lol, hardly....
Badgers end of season rankings..
2017... 12th
2016... 5th
2015... 10th
2014... 4th
2013... 2nd   First season Shetfield was with the Badgers.

2012... didn't make the tourney
2011... didn't make the tourney
2010... didn't make the tourney
2009... didn't make the tourney
2008... didn't make the tourney
.
Kelly Sheffield (born July 14, 1970) is an American college volleyball coach and the current head coach for the women's volleyball team at the University of Wisconsin. He is also a former head coach of Dayton and Albany. In his rookie season coaching the Badgers' Sheffield took his team to the NCAA championship match, he is one of only three head coaches to lead their teams to the final match in their first seasons. The 12th-seeded Badgers upset the No. 1 seeded and defending national champion Texas Longhorns only to fall in the championship match to No. 2 Penn State in the 2013 NCAA championships.

[bigoil]

Didn't they just finish like top 4 in the tournament 2 years ago?  I know they were young last year, and lost Carlini , plus a couple other big hitters.  I see they have the # 4 class for 2018 recruits.   

Seems like they had a great player, and now they're in "wait till next year" mode?

Lol, hardly....
Badgers end of season rankings..
2017... 12th
2016... 5th
2015... 10th
2014... 4th
2013... 2nd   First season Shetfield was with the Badgers.

2012... didn't make the tourney
2011... didn't make the tourney
2010... didn't make the tourney
2009... didn't make the tourney
2008... didn't make the tourney
.
Kelly Sheffield (born July 14, 1970) is an American college volleyball coach and the current head coach for the women's volleyball team at the University of Wisconsin. He is also a former head coach of Dayton and Albany. In his rookie season coaching the Badgers' Sheffield took his team to the NCAA championship match, he is one of only three head coaches to lead their teams to the final match in their first seasons. The 12th-seeded Badgers upset the No. 1 seeded and defending national champion Texas Longhorns only to fall in the championship match to No. 2 Penn State in the 2013 NCAA championships.

334 teams

[Barou]

(As I get dragged down into another thread about a coaching change, nested below an excellent post about all there is to discuss in Badger wrestling. Ugh.)

Absolutely everyone with any D1 wrestling knowledge knows exactly what the quality of Wisconsin HS wrestling is.  (...) Everyone knows that relying exclusively on WI wrestlers for the Badger lineup would not make them competitive. 

Do they? If they do, why do they think the Badgers should be better than the 12-16th best team in the country then? What right do our fans have to expect more, given what the state is offering in talent (and frankly, fans).

Then get more out of state talent.  Even Penn State which has the best HS wrestling in the country in PA has starters from out of state:

125 - Utah
133 - PA
141 - Indiana
149 - PA
157 - PA
165 - PA
174 - MN
184 - TX
197 - NY/PA/NJ
285 - CA

So the best college team in the country in the best wrestling state in the country has a starting line-up of at least 6 out of state starters and possibly 7 depending on who they go with at 197.

[bigG]

Didn't they just finish like top 4 in the tournament 2 years ago?  I know they were young last year, and lost Carlini , plus a couple other big hitters.  I see they have the # 4 class for 2018 recruits.   

Seems like they had a great player, and now they're in "wait till next year" mode?

Lol, hardly....
Badgers end of season rankings..
2017... 12th
2016... 5th
2015... 10th
2014... 4th
2013... 2nd   First season Shetfield was with the Badgers.

2012... didn't make the tourney
2011... didn't make the tourney
2010... didn't make the tourney
2009... didn't make the tourney
2008... didn't make the tourney
.
Kelly Sheffield (born July 14, 1970) is an American college volleyball coach and the current head coach for the women's volleyball team at the University of Wisconsin. He is also a former head coach of Dayton and Albany. In his rookie season coaching the Badgers' Sheffield took his team to the NCAA championship match, he is one of only three head coaches to lead their teams to the final match in their first seasons. The 12th-seeded Badgers upset the No. 1 seeded and defending national champion Texas Longhorns only to fall in the championship match to No. 2 Penn State in the 2013 NCAA championships.

Now 13th. Next year...maybe.

[FoldEmUp]

If I'm the AD overseeing our athletic programs here's how I would view it from an administrative perspective.

1.  We need to have a robust and self-sustaining athletic department that offers 23 sports.  There are fewer than 25 self-sustaining athletic departments in the nation meaning revenue is more than expenditures.  Wisconsin is about $1.5m to the good.

2.  To accomplish that task we need to have a quality revenue sports (football, men's basketball, men's hockey).  The revenue from those sports almost funds the entire athletic department.  And because of that, most of the resources go to those programs to ensure they are quality programs.

3.  Any resources that go to non-revenue sports need to be distributed strategically and efficiently because these sports are net losers to the athletic department. 

4.  Certain sports will never be a revenue sport (golf, rowing, etc.) for many different reasons.

5.  Wrestling is a non-revenue sport.  Can it be a revenue sport?  Almost certainly not.

In terms of average wrestling home attendance in 2016-17 you have:  1) Iowa (9,860), 2) Penn State (7,833), 3) Ohio State (5,880), 4) Oklahoma State (5,041), 5) Rutgers (4,706), 6) Iowa State (3,280), and 7) Minnesota (2,715) and everyone else is below 2,000.  Wisconsin sits at 20th at 955.  In 2016-17 Wisconsin spent $287,567 on the wrestling program.  (https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/details) Most of that is in coaches salaries.  With 5 home duals in 2016-17 at 955 per dual we had a total attendance of 4,775.  Tickets cost $5 adult and $2 kid and senior.  So let's even say every attendee is an adult.  At $5 per ticket we would bring in a whopping $23,875 in ticket revenue.  My guess is the average price is closer to $3 than $5.  Iowa charges between $8-$12.  So even if we could charge what Iowa does we would still only pull in $57,300 at best.  There is some minimal periphery revenue from donors as well.  You can see the issue here.  We are a net loser of around $250k to the athletic department.  Even tripling our attendance and increasing our ticket prices wouldn't get us there.  And if you bring in another coach that would cost us more?  More in the red.  With an athletic department that is in the black but only by $1.5M and you do the math on how much they want to increase the cost of one sport that has little ability to increase it's revenue.

6.  What is the quality of return for the cost?  In other words, is it worth the additional cost for whatever would be gained?

Additional questions...

7.  What is the popularity of the sport of wrestling compared to other sports?  In other words, is there a base from which to pull from to make wrestling a revenue sport or MORE self-sustaining than it currently is?  Iowa drew 42,000 fans to a wrestling match on their football field against Oklahoma State.  We drew in only 1,873 for our dual vs. Penn St, the top team in the nation.  Even as a special event would we have drawn in 10,000?

8.  What is the in-state participation and quality of the sport?  How many post-secondary institutions offer wrestling?  I can tell you, for the number of high school wrestlers in Wisconsin, we have a high number of post-secondary options in-state...13 I believe.  We all know the quality just in terms of NCAA qualifiers from WI.

9.  What is the geographic pool from which to recruit from?  The more quality wrestlers closer to Madison the better.

10.  What are our selling points to recruit out-of-state to Wisconsin for wrestling specifically?  Conference?  Facilities?  Coaches?  Competition?  Weather?  Academics?  Etc.

Within the sport there are some things that can't change and some things that can.  We can't change geography for example.  We can't change our conference.  Can we improve the quality of wrestling in the state?  Yes, but that takes time.  Can we make people more interested in wrestling?  Sure, but it's going to be a process and needs to be strategic.  In my mind it happens at the local level within the state of Wisconsin.  Has Barry Davis done enough to change the circumstances in the state that can be impacted such as interest and participation in wrestling?  Are the circumstances self-inflicted over 20+ years?  I don't know enough to make that determination.

So this is WAY more complex than "let's replace Barry Davis because the results aren't what we want".  We as wrestling fans want the best.  It's OUR passion.  But as in a marriage, what I value isn't necessarily what my wife values.  What I enjoy to do isn't necessarily what she enjoys to do.  If I had my way and thought about nothing else but myself I can tell you the way I'd manage our family's finances would not be what is best for the whole family.  Get where I'm going with this?

Overall, Barry Alvarez must feel like we get a pretty good return for the investment made.  If we're going to be in the negative let's be in the negative minimally so and be competitive at the same time.  There is no fast and easy answer to how we get better as a program, but change for the sake of change is "the grass is greener on the other side" stuff.  I think the program can get better, but is it worth the cost?

[wrastle63]

If I'm the AD overseeing our athletic programs here's how I would view it from an administrative perspective.

1.  We need to have a robust and self-sustaining athletic department that offers 23 sports.  There are fewer than 25 self-sustaining athletic departments in the nation meaning revenue is more than expenditures.  Wisconsin is about $1.5m to the good.

2.  To accomplish that task we need to have a quality revenue sports (football, men's basketball, men's hockey).  The revenue from those sports almost funds the entire athletic department.  And because of that, most of the resources go to those programs to ensure they are quality programs.

3.  Any resources that go to non-revenue sports need to be distributed strategically and efficiently because these sports are net losers to the athletic department.  

4.  Certain sports will never be a revenue sport (golf, rowing, etc.) for many different reasons.

5.  Wrestling is a non-revenue sport.  Can it be a revenue sport?  Almost certainly not.

In terms of average wrestling home attendance in 2016-17 you have:  1) Iowa (9,860), 2) Penn State (7,833), 3) Ohio State (5,880), 4) Oklahoma State (5,041), 5) Rutgers (4,706), 6) Iowa State (3,280), and 7) Minnesota (2,715) and everyone else is below 2,000.  Wisconsin sits at 20th at 955.  In 2016-17 Wisconsin spent $287,567 on the wrestling program.  (https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/details) Most of that is in coaches salaries.  With 5 home duals in 2016-17 at 955 per dual we had a total attendance of 4,775.  Tickets cost $5 adult and $2 kid and senior.  So let's even say every attendee is an adult.  At $5 per ticket we would bring in a whopping $23,875 in ticket revenue.  My guess is the average price is closer to $3 than $5.  Iowa charges between $8-$12.  So even if we could charge what Iowa does we would still only pull in $57,300 at best.  There is some minimal periphery revenue from donors as well.  You can see the issue here.  We are a net loser of around $250k to the athletic department.  Even tripling our attendance and increasing our ticket prices wouldn't get us there.  And if you bring in another coach that would cost us more?  More in the red.  With an athletic department that is in the black but only by $1.5M and you do the math on how much they want to increase the cost of one sport that has little ability to increase it's revenue.

6.  What is the quality of return for the cost?  In other words, is it worth the additional cost for whatever would be gained?

Additional questions...

7.  What is the popularity of the sport of wrestling compared to other sports?  In other words, is there a base from which to pull from to make wrestling a revenue sport or MORE self-sustaining than it currently is?  Iowa drew 42,000 fans to a wrestling match on their football field against Oklahoma State.  We drew in only 1,873 for our dual vs. Penn St, the top team in the nation.  Even as a special event would we have drawn in 10,000?

8.  What is the in-state participation and quality of the sport?  How many post-secondary institutions offer wrestling?  I can tell you, for the number of high school wrestlers in Wisconsin, we have a high number of post-secondary options in-state...13 I believe.  We all know the quality just in terms of NCAA qualifiers from WI.

9.  What is the geographic pool from which to recruit from?  The more quality wrestlers closer to Madison the better.

10.  What are our selling points to recruit out-of-state to Wisconsin for wrestling specifically?  Conference?  Facilities?  Coaches?  Competition?  Weather?  Academics?  Etc.

Within the sport there are some things that can't change and some things that can.  We can't change geography for example.  We can't change our conference.  Can we improve the quality of wrestling in the state?  Yes, but that takes time.  Can we make people more interested in wrestling?  Sure, but it's going to be a process and needs to be strategic.  In my mind it happens at the local level within the state of Wisconsin.  Has Barry Davis done enough to change the circumstances in the state that can be impacted such as interest and participation in wrestling?  Are the circumstances self-inflicted over 20+ years?  I don't know enough to make that determination.

So this is WAY more complex than "let's replace Barry Davis because the results aren't what we want".  We as wrestling fans want the best.  It's OUR passion.  But as in a marriage, what I value isn't necessarily what my wife values.  What I enjoy to do isn't necessarily what she enjoys to do.  If I had my way and thought about nothing else but myself I can tell you the way I'd manage our family's finances would not be what is best for the whole family.  Get where I'm going with this?

Overall, Barry Alvarez must feel like we get a pretty good return for the investment made.  If we're going to be in the negative let's be in the negative minimally so and be competitive at the same time.  There is no fast and easy answer to how we get better as a program, but change for the sake of change is "the grass is greener on the other side" stuff.  I think the program can get better, but is it worth the cost?

Great post! Way to break it down especially the attendance. I think that is the biggest thing is we need to promote the team more and get more fans in the stands. If we could get 2,000 fans a dual that would be an awesome start.

What about if the UW ran a open tourney as a way to boost profits? We have the Kohl Center why not run a tournament where small D3 and D2 schools can come compete with some D1 schools. Try and bring in some teams from out of the Big Ten like Central Michigan, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, etc. even if it is just there backups.

[leg turk]

"If you built it, they will come"

[bigG]

You don't think the Kohl center is adequate?

[leg turk]

I was talking about building a championship team.

[FoldEmUp]

"If you built it, they will come"

That completely oversimplifies things.  Do you think "they will come" to a NCAA hockey program at Florida State?  Nope.  Florida has no interest in hockey.  Could it be developed?  Sure, over a very long period of time.  It doesn't happen overnight.  There is no magic bullet to making Wisconsin a wrestling state all of a sudden.  There isn't a wrestling culture embedded in the state of Wisconsin.  The quality and participation of wrestling isn't going to change overnight even if the program becomes hugely successful on the mat.  There isn't a return on the investment like there was when Barry Alvarez came in and turned the football team around.  He single-handedly turned around the entire athletic department.  Wrestling can do nothing of the sort.

FYI, Iowa, if they were at all, was BARELY a self-sustaining program.  That's only because they had a single event against Oklahoma State in their football stadium draw 42,000 fans bringing in $850k of revenue.  They are one of the most rabid fanbases there is in one of the most successful programs in NCAA history.  Every year without that event they are a huge negative on their athletic department unless they are getting significant donations from alumni to prop it up.

Most AD's would say it's an extremely foolish expense (overall to the athletic department not necessarily to wrestling), but Iowa is willing to take one for the team because they are, well, Iowa.  That is their culture.  That is what they value.  That is not the case in Wisconsin.

[leg turk]

So you are saying Wisconsin is not interested in wrestling, like Florida St is not interested in hockey?  Really, the same thing?   I see the Kohl Center packed to the top come State tournament finals time.  I think there is certainly interest in wrestling in Wisconsin, the fans just have not had anything to get over the top excited about when it comes to the Badgers.  I really believe if we had a tier 2 team such as Michigan right now, The barn would be a lot more full.  Just my opinion.

[dman]

Okay....I have a simple question....without overthinking anything and without coming up with a 5 page thesis on every sport and every single tangible scenario....it is a yes or no question...okay here it is:

Are you 100% satisfied with where the badgers wrestling program is?

My Answer = NO

[dman]

First off....you have to be kidding yourself if some of the programs that are heads and shoulders ahead of us already, aren't still calling for firing their coaches......second, sorry my questions doesn't fit the all knowing and righteous Japanese Whizzer....how about this...next time you don't agree with a question or a post....just don't reply....it'll be okay....you will survive...

[wrastle63]

First off....you have to be kidding yourself if some of the programs that are heads and shoulders ahead of us already, aren't still calling for firing their coaches......second, sorry my questions doesn't fit the all knowing and righteous Japanese Whizzer....how about this...next time you don't agree with a question or a post....just don't reply....it'll be okay....you will survive...

JW has a point. Who else is 100% happy with their program? FoldEmUp laid it out for you with numbers of what wrestling is doing at UW. Until we boost our support and get closer to making money nothing will change. If we get out attendance to 2,000 on average and get closer to breaking even then maybe the higher ups will raise the head coach salary so we can get someone better.

[bigG]

I was talking about building a championship team.

I was joking. I got your drift. Just felt (like FoldEmUp) your take might be a little simplistic.

It's nice to dream; but you'll always have the hindsight of the prospect Donny was to blame present and/or future failures on the historical supposition you have in your mind, that Donny was great, then got mad he couldn't be the HC sooner, then left (which remains to be proven.)

The state tourney represents scads of wrestlers. Big numbers of individuals; with families that want to see those kids wrestle. The Badgers only have so many matches/wrestlers to advertise during a dual.