Schedule

[lizard king]

OK so, if RU does not have a lot coming back, then if they beat the Badgers for the next few years maybe it's because WI doesn't develop kids well?

[bigG]

Or, that Rutgers just has the best asst. coach.

[ChargerDad]

I'll say this.. if my kid is lucky enough to be recruited by D1 schools in HS, UW sits behind both SDSU, NDSU, Northwestern, Central Michigan and Purdue as to places I'd encourage him to go over UW..

Hey ChargerDad,

Good for you for looking out for your child. I have the data you're looking for. Let me help you swim through it. Because a bunch of those other programs don't compete in the Big Tens, I thought we'd just look at the national championships. Is that fair?

Also, just so you know what happened, before the 2011-12 season, the Badgers lost two key assistants. They took two All-Americans with them, including a former national champion, and also cost us a couple top recruits, which had committed. We eventually recovered, but the two years that followed left the team with significant unplanned holes in the lineup, not to mention a huge coaching gap. I'm not saying that you shouldn't consider those two seasons, but certainly, I'd feel comfortable calling them an exception, rather than a rule.


For the teams you mentioned, here are their finishes in the NCAA tournament over the last graduating class (4 years). While I'd love to go all the way back to 2009, 2010, & 2011, where the Badgers had three Top 10 seasons, including a 4th place finish, the more recent data is going to be more indicative of where the programs are now (and how competitive they'd be for your son). Enjoy.

So, you are happy with the current direction of the program??    I feel that while those other programs have done more with less, we have done less with more..  Why?  I think we aren't consistently getting good enough recruits, and recruits we are getting aren't living up to expectations.. We get a few impressive recruits, couple this year, couple the year after next, but we really need 3 or 4 studs a year to crack the top 5 of the B1G..  My son will likely never be recruited, but you like the kids to dream, and I hope by the time he's a Junior in HS, the Badgers have this program headed in the right direction and they are an attractive option for kids who are recruited..  Right now, I look at Wisconsin as the 9th most attractive wrestling school in the B1G, but I think with better leadership, they could been the 4-6 range..  Maybe my expectations are just too high... Maybe 2009-2011 just got our hopes too high..   Maybe 8-10 is really where the Badgers are going to be and I just need to accept that..

[Barou]

There are several things I do around here, that I think are important. The first is to dispel with this myth:

I feel that while those other programs have done more with less, we have done less with more.

Why is it you think the Badgers have more? I believe Wisconsin is the second worst wrestling state in the Big Ten (Nebraska), and I have a lot of evidence to support that theory. What about the program makes you think we have "more". There are certainly schools that have excelled despite not having good home grown talent, but those programs are the exception, not the rule.

The other thing I like to impose on the group is accurate representation of where Wisconsin is as a program. You said this:

Right now, I look at Wisconsin as the 9th most attractive wrestling school in the B1G

That's probably pretty close, if "attractiveness" is team success. I have a database of the last 15 years of NCAA tournament finishes. Wisconsin is one of 8 Big Ten schools with a Top 5 finish (only five have more than one), is tied with Northwestern for 8th in Top 10 finishes, and is 9th in the Big Ten in Top 20 finishes.

But, here's the thing. Using the same metrics, but opening it up to the entire universe of division 1 programs, frames it in a much more favorable light. Sure, 8 Big Ten schools have a Top 5 finish over the last 15 years, but Wisconsin is tied for 13th in the country in Top 5 finishes. They're tied for 16th in Top 10s, and they're tied for 15th in Top 20s.

The truth, ChargerDad, is that if you hadn't made the silly comment that Purdue was a more attractive school than Wisconsin, I probably would have left you alone.

Lastly, this.

So, you are happy with the current direction of the program??

I'm going to assume you think the program is on a downward trend?? Frankly, it's been remarkably consistent. If you don't like the level they're consistently at, you call it "stagnant." We're a Top 15 program in the country and at the median or one team below that in the Big Ten.

I would love to be better, and I don't want that to get lost. I would love to be better.

But, I don't believe a coaching change is enough. A lot of the things BigG says about how the university views the program ring incredibly true. It's not a priority, and frankly why should it be? It's not revenue producing.  I'm at every dual. The attendance is putrid. No one cares. The state's wrestling is mediocre, at best. There's very little outside money to ... ahem ... help with the decision making of these young high school studs from out of state. It's just not realistic to wish Wisconsin be better than Iowa.

I guess my analogy is this. Everyone wants a smoking hot, supermodel wife. Then, you look in the mirror at what you're working with. Sure, you could go to the gym daily. It might take awhile, but you'd get it back. You could buy some new clothes and a haircut. More than that, you could be more personable. You could try to curb that one or two personality quirks that you know are annoying to other people. You'd have to be "on" all the time, but you could do it.

--OR--

You could spend too much time on wrestling message boards and be happy with the wife you do have.

Which option have you guys chosen?

I'll go with the option of hiring a guy like Brian Smith or Chris Bono who took over programs with WAY less than Barry and didn't lobby to everyone why they can't do something but went out and made things happen. 

It's clear you like Davis and you can argue all day how basically "it's not that bad" and for the most part, you're kind of right.  It's not Tom Minkel Michigan State bad by any means and with 9.9 scholarships one is bound to get lucky and land a couple good kids even with a poor track record of development because they are "that good".  I guess as part of the "let's make a change" crowd we think the right leader could take an average top 17-18 finish to an average of 9-10 and have a few top 5 years.  Again, expectations like Mizzou, Lehigh, NC State, Va Tech, etc.  It's not like this a new leader in his 3rd year and the program is getting better.  The word "stagnant" is the right way to describe the program. 

[Barou]

I'll go with the option of hiring a guy like Brian Smith or Chris Bono who took over programs with WAY less than Barry and didn't lobby to everyone why they can't do something but went out and made things happen. 

These guys are the exception, not the rule. I'm sure Oklahoma and Iowa State fans wanted the next Brian Smith. Things haven't turned out as well for them.

Also, why would these exception-to-the-rule guys come to Wisconsin. If I was them, I wouldn't (leaving my personal allegiances to the side).

...even with a poor track record of development...

Is there evidence of this track record? I think that, by-and-large, you get on the mat what you recruit, and that most programs are the same, as far as "wrestler development." Certainly, each program has unranked recruits that find the podium and highly ranked guys that flop. I just have never seen any evidence that one program is better or worse at it.

I'm willing to have my mind changed, but I haven't seen anything resembling evidence of this effect.

I guess as part of the "let's make a change" crowd we think the right leader could take an average top 17-18 finish to an average of 9-10 and have a few top 5 years.

I'm game. Let's do it.

Iowa State will be a contender soon.  Dresser and his staff will elevate that program.  Another program that will be better than UW in a couple years.

Your wishful thinking that we can average 9-10 with Barry is unrealistic.  Plenty of past results to go on.  He won't do it.   

[Barou]

Your wishful thinking that we can average 9-10 with Barry is unrealistic.  Plenty of past results to go on.  He won't do it.   

Who said I think Barry is going to magically move up to a Top Ten program? I didn't.

Sorry I thought when you answered "let's do it" you meant that they could do it with their current leadership.  My mistake.