Should the reduction in Wisconsin's HS wrestling participation be a concern

[DocWrestling]

All sports are losing numbers.  Wrestling's problem is that the reduction in numbers greatly affects the team aspect of the sport.  Basketball just has fewer kids on the bench or they cut fewer kids or they no longer have a freshman team.

2 options
1) reduce the weight classes to improve the team aspect-  I truly believe the team aspect is what will keep kids in the sport.  Even if they lose their match they still might win as a team and might contribute by not getting pinned.  Kind of like the basketball player that sets screens and never scores and fans barely notice.  This also allows the focus to be on team and like all kids in other team sports they can blame others if the team does not win and takes the individual pressure off.  Something drastic like 10 weight classes might be the right jolt.  Dropping one or two will have very little affect and I think we need big change

2) Go to purely an individual sport-  this is where we are headed.  It will be a sport of only those wrestling year round and attending clubs.  It will hurt all and is hurting some great wrestlers because they do not even have practice partners.  This will lead to a downward number in participation.  This will lead to being just a club sport.

We need to back off on weekends and length of the season a bit.  This would bring in more wrestlers and would likely bring in more coaches.  We are losing coaches or fewer are going into coaching at the same rate we are losing wrestlers.  The "wrestling" season does not have to shorten for the die hard motivated wrestlers.  Lets shorten the "high school wrestling" season and then allow the die hards to wrestle more against each other in training practices at clubs and high schools and in open tournaments.

[DocWrestling]

One thing we do need to copy from youth sports is dividing kids up by ability at individual tournaments.  No reason for any of the matches between 24-3 kid and 3-24 kid.   At tournaments separate into gold and silver divisions.  Everyone gets the same quality 3 matches and we no longer waste our time with all those matches between top seeds and low seeds.  Fewer rounds.

Holiday tournaments should take the lead.  Take the top 16 seeds and wrestle a tournament and then put the next 16 in silver division and rest in bronze division.

Quality matches for all levels makes it more fun for wrestlers and fans, shorter days is better for wrestlers, fans, and coaches, etc.   

[TeamJ]

"More kids quit because they are thrown into the varsity lineup to early because there is a spot and others don't appreciate being on varsity because they did not have to earn it."

100% Getyourpoints...that IS a coaching issue.  If that coach can't read what kid can or cannot handle getting thrown out there, that's on him.

Yes, reduction in WI HS wrestling participation should be a concern.  But cutting weight classes is NOT the answer.  So many things should/can be done first:

1)  Continue to promote and progress MS and youth clubs.  Every sport is fighting the "elite" club issue.  Difference is most sports have rec or MS teams to get those that can't join the elite clubs the chance to learn/love a sport.  You are seeing more and more dual format tourneys in youth now, that is a start.

2)  See prior posts on dodging tough matches for better records.  See prior posts on creating excitement in the sport.

3)  Get rid of growth allowance.  It encourages weight cutting.  Weight cutting is a large deterrent for kids.  Both for those electing to cut and those electing not to cut.  Nothing more demoralizing for that grinder, .500 wrestler that starts seeing some successes and has to finish the season wrestling kids that a month ago were a weight class up but come down for "growth allowance."

4)  This will make some people mad, but increase co-op of schools.  If 2 schools for years and years have programs with multiple forfeits and low #'s now matter who the coach is--maybe that is just not a wrestling school.  Put 2 together for more entertaining duals, competitive team.  Why punish all teams by reducing weight classes because wrestling is just not valued in some schools?

5) JHI

6) Sure I am missing more, but I will never believe that limiting opportunity (across the whole state), will increase participation.

[Ghetto]

According to body fat testing for the past six years, the 12 weights would be the following:

114
124
131
138
144
151
158
167
178
194
221
285


I totally agree that throwing kids out there is a coaching issue. There IS, however, pressure to move kids up, win duals, etc.

We don't know that reducing weights would help. We've never tried it.

I agree that we have to keep growing the sport, and adjusting the weights to see if that helps.

There are coaches/wrestlers who dodge competition, but there are far more that don't.

I think the 1.5% rule that was implemented will help considerably with weight cutting. Most kids don't have the resolution to stay down for a long period of time.

Co-ops are tough. We are in one right now. It has been a very positive experience in our first year. Our "other school", while also not a wrestling school, has been extremely supportive of the whole thing. There are a lot of little things that could make things tough, but after a while things start to become normal.

I promise to bring up the reduction in weights thing in March right after NCAAs. Check back then.

I'll bore you to tears with numbers. Stay tuned.

[Troy Grindle]

It is hard to fill 14 weight classes, plain and simple.  It doesn't matter what school you are.  Look at the daily results on track and it will show you even long standing traditionally strong wrestling teams have a hard time filling all varsity weight classes.  Some are just for a couple of matches or a tournament but the majority of the teams it is for the whole season.  The numbers for wrestling will continue to go down.  It is a very hard sport to compete in.  We ask way to much time from our wrestlers and their families with constant tournaments, dieting is tough, practice is tougher, wrestling to outsiders looks like a cult and they think we are a little off balance.  We wear that as a badge of honor and courage but we are the unusual in today's society.  If we as a sport can't find a way to conform to today's society than we will be left in the rear view mirror.  Look no farther than what has happened to MLB and their dwindling numbers over the past 40 years and what is currently happening to the NFL.  We need to adjust rapidly or we will continue to lose kids at a quicker rate in the future. 

*fewer weight classes.  11 or 12 is the number.  I don't like taking opportunities away from kids at the varsity level but as a whole for the sport it is what is best.  Having fewer weight classes will also probably help to keep some kids from open enrolling because they might not be able to make the varsity lineup right away.  Which in turn would help strengthen the team the kid was coming from.

*reduce the number of tournaments to 4 regular season.  Yes I know each team can go to less.  But if you told coaches you could go to 15 varsity tournaments almost every coach would go to 15.  Give the kids and their families back some of their weekends.  This would make the season not such a grind on families and you would get more parents open to their child wrestling.  Make tournaments into something special not something they are just going to every weekend.

*make girls wrestling a wiaa varsity sport.  This needs to happen asap.  This would really help our sport tremendously.  More eyeballs watching and participating.

*get rid of the growth allowance and multiple days wrestling allowance.  113 is 113 every time you weigh in.  This would greatly help the swings in weight.

*keep using the 1.5% rule.  It is working.

I love this sport and everything about it.  But it is hurting and I am afraid if we don't make changes it will continue to shirk in numbers to an unobtainable size for having duals.  Then it will be just about individual tournaments which is what it basically is for over 75% of the teams right now.

[MNbadger]

Your data for fat testing only includes youth who are wrestling.  If we are trying to grow the sport, we should include all potential wrestlers.  If you look at the CDC numbers for weight, your weight classes would not be inclusive (the present weights are not either).  I have posted this data previously so I am not inclined to do so again (one could search this site I suppose).  We never should have cut off the lighter weights in particular.  As far as your claim (and other's) that the 1.5% rule is "working", what do you base this on?  There is little to no scientific study on wrestler's weight loss and the effect on health either good or bad.
I am not trying to attack you or anyone else.  We have a tendency to cannibalize ourselves as a sport and we should be very careful using "statistics" carelessly. 

Respectfully, MNBadger

According to body fat testing for the past six years, the 12 weights would be the following:

114
124
131
138
144
151
158
167
178
194
221
285


I totally agree that throwing kids out there is a coaching issue. There IS, however, pressure to move kids up, win duals, etc.

We don't know that reducing weights would help. We've never tried it.

I agree that we have to keep growing the sport, and adjusting the weights to see if that helps.

There are coaches/wrestlers who dodge competition, but there are far more that don't.

I think the 1.5% rule that was implemented will help considerably with weight cutting. Most kids don't have the resolution to stay down for a long period of time.

Co-ops are tough. We are in one right now. It has been a very positive experience in our first year. Our "other school", while also not a wrestling school, has been extremely supportive of the whole thing. There are a lot of little things that could make things tough, but after a while things start to become normal.

I promise to bring up the reduction in weights thing in March right after NCAAs. Check back then.

I'll bore you to tears with numbers. Stay tuned.

[Barou]

Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI.  Is it even on the radar?

[foose4]

Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI.  Is it even on the radar?

I highly doubt it is as it would also have to include all other sports.   Don't see enough push for JHI in all sports.   

We got push back to include 6th grade with middle school individual sports (CC, Wrestling, Track) where they don't take spots on teams but just add numbers so I doubt our school would even want to do JHI.

[wrastle63]

Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI.  Is it even on the radar?

I highly doubt it is as it would also have to include all other sports.   Don't see enough push for JHI in all sports.   

We got push back to include 6th grade with middle school individual sports (CC, Wrestling, Track) where they don't take spots on teams but just add numbers so I doubt our school would even want to do JHI.

Agree i feel like that would be a long way from happening. I see the benefits of it in wrestling, but think administrators and higher ups view it as a no go. It would be a complete shift in scheduling, events, etc.

[padre]

Neenah was the first youth tournament I have been to in a long time that did not give an award to everyone.  They gave out to top 3.

Otherwise everyone gets an award.  Everyone that shows up gets an award.

I don't know of any other sport that does that.

It is always amazing at the Marty Loy JV tourney how many freshman come up and are disappointed and surprised that only the JV champion (8-man bracket) gets a medal.  Then you have the kids that win can't believe it is not some huge custom trophy or medal.

I know Shawano and Mosinee did same this year.  My only issue with that is why do tournament costs keep rising and giving less awards.  Absolutely no reason to have local tournaments more than $15.00.

I think in the younger grades all should receive something and once 5th grade hits we can go top 3.

[Barou]

Curious if there are any coaches on here that could offer some input on JHI.  Is it even on the radar?

I highly doubt it is as it would also have to include all other sports.   Don't see enough push for JHI in all sports.   

We got push back to include 6th grade with middle school individual sports (CC, Wrestling, Track) where they don't take spots on teams but just add numbers so I doubt our school would even want to do JHI.

Agree i feel like that would be a long way from happening. I see the benefits of it in wrestling, but think administrators and higher ups view it as a no go. It would be a complete shift in scheduling, events, etc.

Minnesota makes it work in all sports in one form or another.  Seems to be a lack of knowledge if administrators are "worried about it".  Or a lack of motivation.

When I coached in MN at a small school there were junior high athletes competing a the varsity level in wrestling, cross country, girls basketball, baseball, softball, and boys and girls track.  Some also competed at the JV level in football, volleyball, and boys basketball. 

[Demon7]

Numbers going down is absolutely a concern.  

We need to find a way to keep the middle level wrestlers involved in the sport.  As we become more specialized, we lose those kids that are vital to our numbers.  Silver and JV divisions would help with keeping those mid level kids. Let's face it, success keeps numbers high, wrestling is easy to fail at, so kids turn away much quicker than other sports.....

Lowering the number of Varsity weight classes should be considered.  It still gives many kids the opportunity to grow in to the sport on JV, at the same time if the kid is ready for varsity, he/she will eventually earn the spot at the right time.  We've all seen JV level kids on varsity hoping they not give up "6" vs forfeiting.  As a fan:  I'd love to see 11 fully contested weights vs 10 contested matches and 4 forfeits.  Yes, I suggest 11...  With match "won" count being the first tie breaker?  6 wins vs 5 losses  

I am not in favor of Junior High Inclusion.  Simply put....  I'm not convinced that many 7th and 8th grade kids could handle the athletic and social pressure of competing at a high varsity level.  I'm sure "some" kids may be able to do it, however the vast majority should not even be put in that position.   Also, exposing a young 12, 13 or 14 year old to the wrong 18 year old (on the bus, in the locker room or on the "Team chat" is just not a good scenario.  As much as these kids bond during a season, it is a recipe for disaster.  Coaches and parents can't be everywhere and can't police it enough.  

[Barou]

Numbers going down is absolutely a concern.  

We need to find a way to keep the middle level wrestlers involved in the sport.  As we become more specialized, we lose those kids that are vital to our numbers.  Silver and JV divisions would help with keeping those mid level kids. Let's face it, success keeps numbers high, wrestling is easy to fail at, so kids turn away much quicker than other sports.....

Lowering the number of Varsity weight classes should be considered.  It still gives many kids the opportunity to grow in to the sport on JV, at the same time if the kid is ready for varsity, he/she will eventually earn the spot at the right time.  We've all seen JV level kids on varsity hoping they not give up "6" vs forfeiting.  As a fan:  I'd love to see 11 fully contested weights vs 10 contested matches and 4 forfeits.  Yes, I suggest 11...  With match "won" count being the first tie breaker?  6 wins vs 5 losses  

I am not in favor of Junior High Inclusion.  Simply put....  I'm not convinced that many 7th and 8th grade kids could handle the athletic and social pressure of competing at a high varsity level.  I'm sure "some" kids may be able to do it, however the vast majority should not even be put in that position.   Also, exposing a young 12, 13 or 14 year old to the wrong 18 year old (on the bus, in the locker room or on the "Team chat" is just not a good scenario.  As much as these kids bond during a season, it is a recipe for disaster.  Coaches and parents can't be everywhere and can't police it enough.  

And yet other states can make JHI work.  Must be a Wisconsin thing.  Totally disagree with the "recipe for disaster" comment.  It's just another variable in a program to manage. 

[Barou]

The WIAA doesn't trust the coaches enough to bring in JHI. By going to JHI you are saying to your coach and parents that they are aware and smart enough to have the best interest of the athletes in mind. The WIAA is a rule dominated organization vs states that have JHI putting more controll in the hands of the local community and school.
My son recently has taken advantage of JHI and is enjoying being with kids of a similar skill set and maturity. I can also let you all know that past 113 pounds there are hardly any 7th graders and very few 8th graders wrestling varsity. Most of the good 7th and 8th graders bounce back and forth between MS and JV events, they may get in 3-5 Varsity matches all season, but for the rare mature kid it removes the glass ceiling.
JHI is a much better solution then the unorganized MS league that most states run, and I believe this is where WI is losing a ton of wrestlers. Way to many dads running MS teams which creates political issues and limitations on coaching (daddy ball).
For WI to reverse the attrition rate in all sports the local community's need to take the lead and put the WIAA in a supporting role versus a leadership role.
Rules can not change culture, leaders change cultures. Wisconsin needs new leadership in the WWF to save wrestling as a dominant sport.
It's working in other states with better results on and off the mat.

My early vote for post of the year.  Well stated.

[Asst. Coach]

I don't know how rampant this is across the state but I hear from our middle school coaches that in our conference many of the good wrestlers get very few quality matches and the ones they get they usually have to wrestle up.  In these cases I feel that JHI would be a good thing.  These kids are often frustrated and I have little doubt that they would have a hard time adjusting at the HS level.