WI Challege Series question

[ecnorth]

Separation criteria (beginner, average, good, excellent) was part of the settings used for all regional tournaments.  Trackwrestling also separates by team.  Perhaps skill separation needs to happen first, something to consider for future regional events.  That said, we did allow time for coaches to briefly look at brackets and comment before printing.

Its a tough call regarding a former state caliber kid or a senior for that matter.  Sometimes kids are first-year wrestlers as seniors.  If a kid is truly JV, then the goal is to allow them to compete in my opinion! 

[DocWrestling]

Just because you have the coaches enter separation criteria it does not mean that trackwrestling uses it.  The tournament administrator needs to select to use it and how he wants to use it when building the brackets.  I don't think it can ever be done automatically.

You can select to separate teammates AND use separation criteria.   If you are going to use separation criteria then you at least have to have all coaches enter it.

I am all for seniors being in this if they are truly JV.  It is there last chance and is probably more important for them.  I have great respect for a senior out for wrestling even though he is still on JV.  I feel bad for one senior on a team that did not make it because of the draw and one of his teammates that he is better than did (got a better draw).  But those are all life lessons.

[Chris Hansen]

I saw coach listed ability was not used.

Saw brackets where all best kids listed by the coaches as excellent, good ect in the lower half of the bracket all together, where the beginner made the finals on upper half. Former ranked kid and a former state HS place winner met in Semi's. Owen Mastek Ellsworth vs Calab Hatch Hudson at EC North Regional.

2pointTakedown -- Caleb Hatch (Hudson) is not formerly ranked.  He is a freshman with 2 varsity matches under his belt. 

[Mack]

This is a great event; from what I have heard from kids and parents in our program, the event is doing exactly what the originators hoped it would.  It is awesome to hear younger kids, or kids who can't crack the varsity line up anticipate and prepare for this event. Also, cool to see families get excited about it.  If the point is to generate enthusiasm for the sport of wrestling, it's working. 

[ecnorth]

Doc,
Settings for the event are set up ahead of time by others and for sake of consistency between regions we didn't change it.  Criteria did get used, just was AFTER separation by team...something might want to change for next year.  I think the goal when the event was planned was to avoid a full blown coaches seeding meeting.  It might not be perfect, but its a great event and positive suggestions I am sure are considered.

[DocWrestling]

Doc,
Settings for the event are set up ahead of time by others and for sake of consistency between regions we didn't change it.  Criteria did get used, just was AFTER separation by team...something might want to change for next year.  I think the goal when the event was planned was to avoid a full blown coaches seeding meeting.  It might not be perfect, but its a great event and positive suggestions I am sure are considered.

I guess it is a question for trackwrestling but I don't think you can set that up ahead of time based on past tournaments I have run.  The administrator has to select the seeding criteria when building the brackets.  That may need to be explained better to tournament administrators if they want to use the separation criteria. Do they only separate the kids rated excellent or do they separate the "good" wrestlers also.  These are all choices made when the administrator creates the brackets.  It is obvious the criteria was not used at some qualifiers and not even entered by all coaches. 

It was most certainly a great event no matter how you look at it.

[DocWrestling]

I went back and looked to see how many teams participated.

I am guess about 45 schools were assigned to each qualifier.   This is how many teams actually participated.  Imagine if all did!  geography may be an issue for some smaller JV teams.

Eau Claire North-   14 teams
Homestead- 27 teams
Little Chute- 20 teams
Marshfield- 14 teams
Middleton- 26 teams
Mineral Point- 14 teams
Racine Park- 24 teams
Sauk Prairie- 17 teams

156 teams participated which is probably just under 50%

[shouldvewrestled]

Doc,
Settings for the event are set up ahead of time by others and for sake of consistency between regions we didn't change it.  Criteria did get used, just was AFTER separation by team...something might want to change for next year.  I think the goal when the event was planned was to avoid a full blown coaches seeding meeting.  It might not be perfect, but its a great event and positive suggestions I am sure are considered.

I guess it is a question for trackwrestling but I don't think you can set that up ahead of time based on past tournaments I have run.  The administrator has to select the seeding criteria when building the brackets.  That may need to be explained better to tournament administrators if they want to use the separation criteria. Do they only separate the kids rated excellent or do they separate the "good" wrestlers also.  These are all choices made when the administrator creates the brackets.  It is obvious the criteria was not used at some qualifiers and not even entered by all coaches. 

It was most certainly a great event no matter how you look at it.

Regionals and sectionals are set up ahead of time by someone I'm assuming with the WIAA and/or Track and not the host school.  Might do the same for this series?

[hasbeen]

It seems to me some schools are still using this as an "add in" tournament for a varsity wrestler who missed an earlier tournament or was held out of a tougher tournament. To me an unwritten rule should be that kids who are planning on wrestling at WIAA regionals should not wrestle in this tournament. (There will be some exceptions because of injury or some other unforeseen circumstance and I get that). I expect as in the last couple years there will be some actual varsity wrestlers who qualified who pull out allowing the next kid in line to compete at JV state, but what happens is that JV kid did not get the chance on the day of the qualifier to feel the pride of qualifying with a win.

[Thats2]

Hello Obviously, I don't normally post, as I am involved in our middle school program and not on the Forum a great deal.   
I've been involved in Wisconsin wrestling for over 30 years and thought I'd list what should be used as criteria for the Challenge Series (straight from wiwrestling site)


3. Region Entries:
a. Coaches should use their best discretion when considering entering individuals into the Challenge Series. This competition is intended to accommodate 'sub-varsity' level wrestlers as opposed to varsity level 'competitive' regular varsity line up wrestlers who have been contributing members of a varsity squad during any season. As a rule, the wrestlers entered should have been representing the 'sub-varsity' ('JV' or 'freshman' or 'reserve') team the majority of the season or be wrestling varsity to 'fill' a weight class need, despite their competitiveness at that level. Records will not be a consideration, but a varsity competitor with a winning record, who has not regularly represented the JV at their school, is probably not a fit for this competition.

b. Who should be entered in the Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series?
Some thoughts and questions coaches need to ask themselves and consider when deciding whether to enter an individual in the WWCS.
Coaches are asked to use discretion and common sense in choosing to enter individuals in this 'sub-varsity' event.
-A coach should be able to say his/her conscience is clear regarding every wrestler entered in the WWCS from their team.
The event is considered 'sub-varsity' level.
-Ask yourself if this wrestler is a 'sub-varsity' level wrestler.
-If the wrestler has been on the varsity or belonged on the varsity this year or prior years, should that wrestler enter this event?
-A 'varsity' wrestler should not be entered in this tournament.
-This tournament should not be used by a varsity wrestler to fill in for a 'missed' varsity tournament opportunity.
-This event is meant for high school wrestlers who are not regularly varsity wrestlers.
-This event is not to be considered as an opportunity for a 'varsity' wrestler to get 'quality mat time' or make up for missed prior varsity competitions.
Is there a set number or maximum number of matches a wrestler can have and still enter the WWCS?
-There is no set number. A sub-varsity level wrestler might have 'filled in' on varsity any number of times.
If a wrestler is on a 'JV', 'freshman' or 'reserve' team and that team has been in a Varsity tournament or tournaments, is that wrestler 'sub-varsity' level?
-If the wrestler is regularly winning or advancing to the finals at any varsity events, he/she is not really to be considered 'sub-varsity' level. Wrestlers with the ability to qualify for the WIAA Sectional and or State meet and place and even win the WIAA State Individual tournament would not and should not be considered 'sub-varsity' for the purposes of the WWCS

I can honestly say, some programs are not using this as intended....

[wrestlersdad]

Simple fix, allow wrestle-backs to 3rd place.

with 21 guys in a bracket there is no way to do that with 5-match rule

Looking at the 152 lb bracket at the Homestead qualifier, they couldnt even wrestle the championship match.  One of the finalists already has his 5 matches in.

[DocWrestling]

That was awesome that they had a 36 man bracket but you are right that they could not even wrestle the 3rd place match to see who goes to state.

I hope it continues to grow but it may have to change in format when brackets are getting that big.

Maybe they have to hear who wants to attend and then just divide up those teams into regions rather than assigning every team.

[imwi]

That was awesome that they had a 36 man bracket but you are right that they could not even wrestle the 3rd place match to see who goes to state.

I hope it continues to grow but it may have to change in format when brackets are getting that big.

Maybe they have to hear who wants to attend and then just divide up those teams into regions rather than assigning every team.

They flipped coins at Homestead to determine the qualifiers.   

While that is unfortunate, it is the final tiebreaker criteria.

[yaknowwhatimean?]

As far as the EC North series goes, there was ample enough time during the coaches meeting to separate wrestlers.  Every weight and every coach was consulted as to the draw of each weight class.  If something was missed, that falls on the teams coach.  Every opportunity was afforded for a fair weight class.  Great tournament overall. 

[Handles II]

Hello Obviously, I don't normally post, as I am involved in our middle school program and not on the Forum a great deal.   
I've been involved in Wisconsin wrestling for over 30 years and thought I'd list what should be used as criteria for the Challenge Series (straight from wiwrestling site)


3. Region Entries:
a. Coaches should use their best discretion when considering entering individuals into the Challenge Series. This competition is intended to accommodate 'sub-varsity' level wrestlers as opposed to varsity level 'competitive' regular varsity line up wrestlers who have been contributing members of a varsity squad during any season. As a rule, the wrestlers entered should have been representing the 'sub-varsity' ('JV' or 'freshman' or 'reserve') team the majority of the season or be wrestling varsity to 'fill' a weight class need, despite their competitiveness at that level. Records will not be a consideration, but a varsity competitor with a winning record, who has not regularly represented the JV at their school, is probably not a fit for this competition.

b. Who should be entered in the Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series?
Some thoughts and questions coaches need to ask themselves and consider when deciding whether to enter an individual in the WWCS.
Coaches are asked to use discretion and common sense in choosing to enter individuals in this 'sub-varsity' event.
-A coach should be able to say his/her conscience is clear regarding every wrestler entered in the WWCS from their team.
The event is considered 'sub-varsity' level.
-Ask yourself if this wrestler is a 'sub-varsity' level wrestler.
-If the wrestler has been on the varsity or belonged on the varsity this year or prior years, should that wrestler enter this event?
-A 'varsity' wrestler should not be entered in this tournament.
-This tournament should not be used by a varsity wrestler to fill in for a 'missed' varsity tournament opportunity.
-This event is meant for high school wrestlers who are not regularly varsity wrestlers.
-This event is not to be considered as an opportunity for a 'varsity' wrestler to get 'quality mat time' or make up for missed prior varsity competitions.
Is there a set number or maximum number of matches a wrestler can have and still enter the WWCS?
-There is no set number. A sub-varsity level wrestler might have 'filled in' on varsity any number of times.
If a wrestler is on a 'JV', 'freshman' or 'reserve' team and that team has been in a Varsity tournament or tournaments, is that wrestler 'sub-varsity' level?
-If the wrestler is regularly winning or advancing to the finals at any varsity events, he/she is not really to be considered 'sub-varsity' level. Wrestlers with the ability to qualify for the WIAA Sectional and or State meet and place and even win the WIAA State Individual tournament would not and should not be considered 'sub-varsity' for the purposes of the WWCS

I can honestly say, some programs are not using this as intended....

One of the factors that must be considered is that of our team numbers per weight class per our other ongoing thread. As many coaches have mentioned, they very often have "sub-varsity" guys filling out weight classes, or even multiple weights. These guys might be wrestling varsity all season but in all honesty, don't belong there at all. The problem comes when as a state we have many many teams in the same boat, not filling their weights very easily. Looking at the number of tournaments as I have, it's very easy to see "sub-varsity" type guys placing regularly top 5 in varsity tournaments and earning +.500 records due to multiple byes and forfeits. I believe being in a JV tournament is the right place for them. On another team there are kids who could regularly place top 3 that can't beat out a teammate, I believe being in a JV tournament is also the right place for them.

I understand the frustration for an event like this. There are multiple issues with who is "JV", just as there are multiple issues with who is "Varsity".  Probably the best that can happen is that each coach attempts to do the best thing as a whole for his wrestlers in the spirit of the sport and the particular event. Some will always abuse the system no matter what guidelines are in place. It's how humans are and we certainly don't need to look hard to find thousands of examples of that in every aspect of our society.