Filling WI Weight Classes: The Data

[DocWrestling]

In the long term the girls wrestling the more youth wrestlers we will have in the future.  It is often brought up that we don't have girls cheerleaders for wrestling anymore so we need more females participating in the sport and competing is probably the best way.  The more families with wrestling backgrounds the better

[Jimmy]

197 is the second highest college weight. Doesn't change your point 1iota . Just clarifying.

[bigG]

Great info Pat Kilty,
What would happen if girls wrestling was sanctioned? Well, for one we would lose those 60 girls wrestling varsity and our numbers would be  even lower for "boys" wrestling. 2. it might increase the number of girls that get involved in the sport and that isn't a bad thing imo.

Doc and G,

Looking at the data, 106 is doing ok, not outstanding, but pretty good. I think keeping a 106/07/08 lb weight class, then a 115 and 125 might be a better solution than just a 110 then 120? There is a ton of talent in 106 (look at the seeds from Bi-state or OTW) that will often grow into the heavier weights, let's keep those kids on varsity.  Maybe there is a growth gap around 113 just like in that 195 range? Kids sort of skip over it from one year to the next? I'd be very curious about the numbers when we had 103 and 112 and what the differences would be...

Just being tongue in cheek with my new weights. 103/112 would be some interesting numbers; and nice data points.

I wonder what the numbers are Free/Greco to Folk, GYP.

[DocWrestling]

Screw the kids that don't fit a weight class they should just cut down further or quit and go out for basketball and sit with the other 30 kids not playing.

Here is the issue!  Why do kids in basketball choose to be part of teams when they never play?  Yet in wrestling we want to get every kid the opportunity to be on varsity from day one or they will quit.

What can we learn from this to increase participation?  To me it means that the team aspect is more important than the individual aspect.  The team part is more fun.  One of the biggest changes I have seen in wrestling is moving away from the team aspect with duals.  When I wrestled in middle school we had a conference and wrestled duals with weight classes as a team.  Luckily now our conference has brought back JV duals.

As we lose wrestlers, it gets harder to focus on team stuff and the snowball continues.  This is why I believe fewer weight classes will improve the team concept and ultimately lead to more participation.  We used to have two middle school teams that wrestled a conference with duals.  Now the district has cut back to one team and we just treat them like third graders and match them up in round robins.  While one guy wrestles on one mat the rest are doing something else somewhere else in the building.  Building a team comradery is tough.

Over the past 20-30 years we have moved away from the team concept and participation numbers have gone down.  Coincidence?

[aarons23]

Screw the kids that don't fit a weight class they should just cut down further or quit and go out for basketball and sit with the other 30 kids not playing.

Here is the issue!  Why do kids in basketball choose to be part of teams when they never play?  Yet in wrestling we want to get every kid the opportunity to be on varsity from day one or they will quit.

What can we learn from this to increase participation?  To me it means that the team aspect is more important than the individual aspect.  The team part is more fun.  One of the biggest changes I have seen in wrestling is moving away from the team aspect with duals.  When I wrestled in middle school we had a conference and wrestled duals with weight classes as a team.  Luckily now our conference has brought back JV duals.

As we lose wrestlers, it gets harder to focus on team stuff and the snowball continues.  This is why I believe fewer weight classes will improve the team concept and ultimately lead to more participation.  We used to have two middle school teams that wrestled a conference with duals.  Now the district has cut back to one team and we just treat them like third graders and match them up in round robins.  While one guy wrestles on one mat the rest are doing something else somewhere else in the building.  Building a team comradery is tough.

Over the past 20-30 years we have moved away from the team concept and participation numbers have gone down.  Coincidence?

Doc,  your compaint isnt going to get better by cutting weight classes.  It gets better by changing the way we treat jv kids, it gets better by building those middle school teams you so fondly remember.   It gets better by those in charge of our tournaments to host tournaments for jv other than 4 man round robins.  I think WI is on the right track with the creation of the challenge series...lets talk about how to build on that instead of how to kill the sport from the inside.

[bigoil]

Great idea get rid of 220 and sit back and watch the support of the Football program.

Big Oil as you know your coach is very opposed to cutting because he enjoys a great realationship with the football program.

I give up let's just start cutting, let's get rid of folk style all together and just get to Olympic styles and weight classes.
Screw the kids that don't fit a weight class they should just cut down further or quit and go out for basketball and sit with the other 30 kids not playing.
I propose we get down to 10 weight classes, let's get rid of 106 it's only freshman so it's not really varsity weight class anyway. 220 or 285 what's the difference they will be fine together I am sure no one will get hurt, plus there kids they bounce back quick. 132 for sure has to go, most of those kids cut from 145 anyway so they can wrestle there or cut to 138.
If we cut to 10 or 12 I encourage the WIAA to get rid of body fat testing so kids can squeeze down to a spot they can make.

My beef is we never should have added a 13th and then a 14th weight. When we added the 13th weight we did it right in the middle, made no sense and then 14 we modified them pushing them up. I think we should have a weight bigger than the former 185 but not two weights plus HWT. I don't know that it will help participation or not. I do think what some are saying you may lose a couple of kids that will quit because they aren't varsity and I do think you will keep other kids longer because they won't be on varsity.

I'm not sure on how many FB players are really filling those heavier weight that weren't always wrestler. I think Aaron has pointed out that 220 has more FF than 106.

So I don't really care either way and agree it's fairly pointless as this isn't changing.

[Handles II]

It certainly won't change unless coaches talk to AD's, AD's talk to AD's and AD reps talk to WIAA.
Coaches must talk to and within the WWCA.

States don't always follow the NFHS rules, each has the ability to add to or modify. From the NFHS website:

"STATE ASSOCIATIONS are not required to use NFHS playing rules. However, most states use NFHS playing rules for most sports. If a state is to have representation on a committee, it must follow the NFHS playing rules for the sport. If the rules give an option, a state may mandate either and retain membership on the committee. Typically, NFHS rules place a major emphasis on risk management and efficiency in administration of contests."

And here's the reality and kicker, our state tournament series ends here. We do not participate, as a state, in a national wrestling tournament. Already rules are in place that if we participate in another state (or vice versa) that the rules of the host state shall be followed, so that solves any issues of teams crossing the boarders.

Certainly something to continue to talk about and watch as I attempt to compile more numbers. At this point, unless it becomes too cumbersome, I might as well attempt to do this each week.

[littleguy301]

getyours,,,,,I understand what you say there but I could counter with 12 coaches that say cut weights. we could go around and around with this.

Honestly your on to something with the 4,4,4 thing.

basically teams need the freedom of getting matches and duals against teams that they can compete against.

It does no good for any team to win a dual by 70+ points or for that matter lose by the same amount.

you can have a great young building program but if you get one of those butt kicking it does set back a program and if you continue to get those butt kickings it deadens most builing and young programs.

[jeast]

I honestly think youth wrestling has hurt the sport more than anyone seems to want to admit. I'm all for Jr. High wrestling, even 5th and 6th grade wrestling. Kindergarten through 4th grade is just too early.
Wrestling can be a very scary sport to a 6 year old. Especially competition. (it was scary for me when I got head tossed in nationals in college) Wrestling practice for a 6 year old can and SHOULD be fun! Not competition. I try my best to dissuade parents from letting their child of age 6, 7, 8, and 9 years old compete in tourneys.

Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten.

I tell parents that ask, you'll get about 8 years of competition out of your athlete. If you start them in Kindergarten, they'll most likely be done by 8th grade. End of story.

Yes, I know that elite wrestlers with PROPER parental support won't burn out, but those are not the athletes that FILL teams. It's the average kids that fill teams. They are not out anymore. They are tired of it.

Want full teams in High School?  Cut out the competition from age 6-9. I bet you'll see an increase in kids going out in HS.

But, "Johnny loves competing in wrestling!!!  He always wants MORE!"  As a parent, it's my job to ensure that my child is told no. Turn a kid loose in a candy store and they will eat til they puke. Is that good for them? Same holds true in any athletic competition. Sure, the kid thinks he/she wants MORE! But in the end, they will tire of it sooner than High school comes.

Just my two cents worth. 

[littleguy301]

jeast I agree on your statement of 8 years.

getyour,,,,one of the biggest things that work for us was youth duals. just getting kids from other school and strictly a match up and go. no team scores but man the youth we had do it was out of hand.

I think that basically teach just plain and simple tumbling with the little guys/girls. though by 3rd grade they seem to pick up some wrestling out of it. the big problem is that no matter how much you talk to parents they seem to want to get that shinny medal for their kids at such a young age. Also while I dont like those youth tournaments the money you can make is incredible. kind of like a bad makes a good. that money we make as a club certainly goes upstairs to help the high school and such. not sure if that is an evil but I certainly wouldnt say it is over all outstanding.

The big question, is where you want your kid to be competitive or the top of their game. 4th grade or 12th grade. that is what you can talk about but usually most dont find out until their child is no longer in the sport before high school hits.

[Coach V]

Jeast +1. They need very little competition at the young ages. We re doing more scrimmages and duals for these ages and 1-2 tournaments for grades k-2 is encouraged and then a little more ,3-4  in 3rd ad 4th grade. Keep them away from the insanities(kids tournaments) as much as possible. At those tournaments, parents need to let coaches coach and parents parent and if there isn't a coach, there the parent should be there and say nothing( very hard, trust me, as a coach and a parent) especially at the young ages, let them FIGURE IT OUT on there own. They cant determine at that age if Dad is jacking them up or coaching them(probably trying to do both). We all get to be Papa Bear when or kids are competing, but we need to let them enjoy it and work with them at the proper times. I don't even coach my kids in practice. When they ask me about technique or situations then we talk about it. As far as kids saying no, KEEP THEM HUNGRY!!!!

[DocWrestling]

I agree with Jeast that numbers would skyrocket if wrestling did not start until 5th grade.  I know it will never happen.  But everyone would start out the same and everyone that tried other sports and quit would join.  Now we make it so hard for kids to join later because they get pounded by the ones with experience.

I think this would be true in all sports.  Not just wrestling.  The elite wrestlers may not be quite as good but we would have higher numbers.

2 college coaches have told me that they have a much higher percentage of kids wrestling all 4 years in college if they did not start in K-4th grade because they agree with you that most kids have a maximum in years they enjoy competing.

I actually coach our K-2 program.  We focus on fun and fitness and introduce wrestling.  It is only 8 practices, once a week in January and February.  I advise parents to not go to tournaments.  Many parents want more and some even leave to wrestle in other cities with higher frequency.  There is even debate within our club.  No wrong or right answer but right now we need numbers in our program more than we need experienced talent.  I am not sure if even the K-2 program I coach helps or does more harm as many kids first day they get bumped and they are crying and some never come back.  Always wonder if that kid will ever try the sport again when they are more mature.  Once we have numbers then we can start pushing maybe more but my personal goal is simply to try and get as many kids wrestling in middle school as possible and to enjoy the sport.  If they are athletic and start in middle school they can accomplish big things and pass many kids by that started earlier.

To me tournaments are mostly a waste of money and time below 3rd grade.  Not sure why 9 minutes max of wrestling in an entire day and an award is somehow better than an hour practice.  Occasionally maybe it makes sense if the wrestler is having fun at the tournament with friends and maybe that is more fun and different than just another practice ("fun" usually depends on the parents).  I don't know of any other sport that has competitions below 3rd grade.

[Handles II]

I honestly think youth wrestling has hurt the sport more than anyone seems to want to admit. I'm all for Jr. High wrestling, even 5th and 6th grade wrestling. Kindergarten through 4th grade is just too early.
Wrestling can be a very scary sport to a 6 year old. Especially competition. (it was scary for me when I got head tossed in nationals in college) Wrestling practice for a 6 year old can and SHOULD be fun! Not competition. I try my best to dissuade parents from letting their child of age 6, 7, 8, and 9 years old compete in tourneys.

Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten.

I tell parents that ask, you'll get about 8 years of competition out of your athlete. If you start them in Kindergarten, they'll most likely be done by 8th grade. End of story.

Yes, I know that elite wrestlers with PROPER parental support won't burn out, but those are not the athletes that FILL teams. It's the average kids that fill teams. They are not out anymore. They are tired of it.

Want full teams in High School?  Cut out the competition from age 6-9. I bet you'll see an increase in kids going out in HS.

But, "Johnny loves competing in wrestling!!!  He always wants MORE!"  As a parent, it's my job to ensure that my child is told no. Turn a kid loose in a candy store and they will eat til they puke. Is that good for them? Same holds true in any athletic competition. Sure, the kid thinks he/she wants MORE! But in the end, they will tire of it sooner than High school comes.

Just my two cents worth. 

+ 1000

There certainly are kids who can go K-College, but those are very few and far between. To retain numbers, focus on practice, not competition. Unfortunately so many other sports are "game" based. Youth baseball is one practice a week and then a 6 game tournament on the weekend. The unknowing parents get sucked in by the overzealous organizers and fear of falling behind.
Start kids in 4th/5th/6th grade and we will have more in high school.

[MNbadger]

Jeast (and others), "Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten. "

I agree with you about too much competition too soon but.... Your quote is a bit contradictory to other things you and others are saying....
If I am not getting this right, I apologize.

Yes, a youth tournament will have those numbers but that is because you are drawing from a wide area and large population.  A high school dual could be drawing participants from say two towns with populations from as little as 100-400 people.

Also, those youth tournaments have those numbers and they ARE NOT a dual format so it likely is not duals that will fix any declining wrestling numbers.  Numbers have slowly and steadily increased nationally.  I think we are looking at a small town problem ie.; declining populations in rural areas.  Now having said this, I teach in district with a high school of 2100 plus.  We are not fielding a full wrestling team.  We have three middle schools each with roughly 600-700 students.  The middle schools can barely get enough girls to field a basketball team.  My MS had 6 girls the first day, now has 11.  One would think they would have had 40-60 out and had to cut, no?

[ramjet]

This is a parental decision and the child's/family decision ........period end of story. Liberal mind set and thinking to regulate common sense and good parenting.....gheeesh.