Fargo results 2010-2016

[Harris]

All great points and I do agree with you to some extent.  Believe me when I say I was not the best coach or the best parent athlete.  We all make mistakes and must adjust.  I just have a different philosophy on parenting, coaching and running an organization now that I have been through it with my own children and as a coach.  I have seen the best and worst of parents, coaches and organizations.

You stated, "Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?"

As a highschool or middle school or club coach I am not coaching the team for that once in a lifetime athlete.  In addition, the Fargo athletes are not 1st year unseasoned wrestlers.  I have coached a few D1 athletes and now one who went pro.  They all went outside of the organization to get the specialized training and workouts.  I am sure the same can be said for Jesse and Ben but I don't know for certain.  I coach the same regardless of who the athletes are in front of me.  I will take a room full of 1st year unseasoned athletes with the right work ethic and attitude over 1 primadonna any day.  I have seen too many primadonna's wreck a team and organization and then leave.  I heard many elite athletes say wrestling and sports in general is more mental than physical.  All kids need that same mental conditioning to succeed wherever they are athletically.   Why do so many wrestling teams continue to under perform even though they have that one stud?  More than likely it is because the other kids in the room are not getting the attention and coaching because the coach is catering to the stud and the studs parents.  It's just what I have seen and experienced.  It happens in youth sports, middle school, high school, national teams, college, pro and olympic/world teams.  That's why a great coach and well run organization is such a precious commodity.

If you single out the superstar, you undermine the team and you lose the athletes 9 times out of 10.  I have watched very high level athletes being trained at specialized camps.  They are still learning, drilling and practicing the same basic fundamentals that I see at high school practices.  Personally, I think to make the superstar's better, you need to raise the level of wrestling of all the other kids in the room so they can be competitive in practice and on the mat.  You don't do that by catering to the 1 at the expense of the many.

As far as the parent of the superstar kid.  I have seen the most laid back, gracious, kind, unassuming parents raise the most respectful, athletic kids.  Amazingly, they did it without being pushy or asking for any special treatment.  On the other hand, I have had parents of super stars threaten, bully, undermine and lie only to see their own kid quit the sport in front of them and the whole team.  As a coach, I don't know who the future state champ or olympic athlete is.  I just train them all the same.  I am not kidding when I say we had a crying middle schooler end up being a state champion.  You just never know.

As a parent and coach, I would and have gotten involved when my child or athlete is being treated differently than the rest.  That is not what I am talking about here.  I am talking about the organization or the parent who wants to treat certain athletes different than everyone else.  There is a difference.

[Harris]

One more thought.  Some of the greatest coaches of all time never played the sport or were not very good at the sport.  Why?  In my opinion, it is because they knew how to coach.  You could have them coaching the girls volleyball team, the boys hockey team or the bowling team and they would still field a competitive team within a few years.  You don't do that by waiting for superstar athletes.  You do it by coaching up what you got.

[Ringers]

I don't get on the forum much but I heard this discussion was up and wanted to see what constructive ideas were being tossed around.  Whenever you complete a project it is good to take note of "lessons learned" in order to move forward.  So now that we are done with the project- FS and GR season, we should take note and update our plan for next year and the next 5 years.  

Fargo results (and when we participate, National Dual results) are a great way to gauge where Wisconsin stands as a state.  I am surprised anyone would be against this exercise and the posting of it on the forum.  As a club coach every year I run the same stats that getyourpoints did.  This year it was not pretty with WI being behind our 4 neighbor states at every age group and style.  And we are out of the top 10 among all states.  This matters because Fargo is the most important meet for HS age wrestlers of the year even if you don't want to wrestle after HS.  If you do want to go on, it is essential to prove you can compete on a national level and not just in Wisconsin.  Does everyone have to go this route?  No, but it is a proven method for improving as a wrestler and getting noticed by coaches.  Ringers of note that benefited from this:  Alex Dieringer would have gotten zero interest from OSU without his Jr. Nat. title and Beau Breske's 3 state titles means little to Manning compared to his FS title.  For those that just don't like FS and GR, what can I say other than I think your really missing out.

Bottom line is we have to start producing more All-Americans.  Let's start talking about that.  Ben Askren is right in noting we had numerous near misses, but we have to get more of those kids over the top.  
I saw some good ideas:  
-maybe it is a good time to get back in National Duals at Cadet and Jr. level
-having knowledgable coaches like Craig Becker from UW Parkside would be outstanding
-heck, get more participation from all the college coaches in the state.  Is there a limit to the amount of volunteer coaches?
-get more wrestlers going both styles and modify the camps to accommodate them

Let's be open minded to change and questioning how we can do better.  I know our state coaches are looking to find new ways to get better results and this should be a place to cultivate those ideas.  So let's hear some ideas that can be used.

Jim Schmitz
Ringers Wrestling Club

[bulldog]

Harris...good discussion and good points. You did not address the point about putting the first year kid in a high level training session. Would you? Why or why not?

It seems like I didn't really make my point. You made a point about "pushy parents...Olympic athlete". My point was it is those kids/parent combination that make the Olympic athlete. Why do athletes like Jesse and Ben go outside of their own room looking for additional training? If they had the support in their room would they have to? I can name two wrestlers from a championship team...the individuals rarely went outside the room. They had each other and they pushed each other. One was a 2x state champ and one was a 2x runner up...BTW the runner up was the one that did do outside training. Neither competed at Fargo as far as I know and one went on to wrestle for a D1 team.

My point...the coach saw these individuals needed something more then the kid that just came out for the team and he supported it. That coach took some average kids and made them good and took some good kids and made the great but he did not coach every kid the same.

As a coach are we there for the team or for the individual? Or is it a fine balance of the two? In youth and HS are we working towards guiding an individual to be a better person or to win team championships?

Why is it always one primadonna wrecking a room. Maybe if it was looked at as one motivated athlete in a room of others who do not have similar goals. If all coaches looked at the sport and said they coach to the room and not the individual then wouldn't all athletes be Olympic level athletes? Someone had to take the time to get on board with the dream.  Some kids have more drive...some kids are just out for the sport to be out for the sport...some are out just to stay in shape for football. If I understand your point correctly, you feel they all should get the same level of coaching in the room

I am not saying singling anyone out and I am not talking about the "primadonna" those are negative ideals. I want to give the kid that wants more...more and I want to support the kid that has greater goals within the sport? Instead of looking at that kid as a negative in the room look at him as a positive. I have coached that kid and had him help others out in the room and that kid has been one of the key components in raising the level of the skill in the room.

Yes...I agree there are the pain in the butts but how did they get there? Could they be frustrated in the room because there are others in the room that just are not as committed to the sport as they are? Possibly.

So while you say a "primadonna" can wreck a room...what about the other side...the kid that is just taking up space and not serious about the sport. Don't tell me they wash out...I have been in enough HS rooms that have that one screw around who nobody gets on about stepping up. He is just good enough to fill a varsity spot at a weight class the team needs but he is more concerned about the music on the stereo or goofing off in practice. That kid can bring a room down just as much as the primadonna.

I find this conversation line interesting...hope we can keep it civil!! HA

[Harris]

Yes - I would put them in a high level training session.  My idea of a high level training session and your idea may be different.  I think we are both kind of saying the same thing just in a different way.  I would not throw a middle school wrestler in a live practice/wrestle off with a state champion.  That does not mean that I can't coach them both in the same room during the same practice. 

I am not sure if I agree that the kid/parent combination makes the olympic caliber athlete.  If that was true, all pro athletes would have pro athlete kids and all olympic athletes would have olympian kids.  There is so much more to it.  How does the single mom who never wrestled a day in her life and never bothers the coaching staff end up having a state champion or D1 wrestler?  I agree parents have a huge influence on the kids but being pushy is not going to make a great athlete and asking for special treatment is not doing the athlete any good.  Take them outside the organization if need be.

As far as Jesse and Ben going outside the room, that is what happens when an athlete gets to that level.  I understand that.  On the other hand, I still don't treat them any differently when they are in my practice. 

Why can't we win championships and teach life lessons and guide athletes to become better people?  The great coaches I have seen do both.  Why do some coaches do it year after year with any kids you give them?  I believe it is because they treat them all the same.

One of my favorite coaches was given the C team in middle school football one year.  They got all the little kids, the uncoordinated kids and the first year players.  By the end of the season, they were beating the A and B teams and beating their opponents in games.  How do they do it year after year? 

I would argue that the reason a lot of kids are not committed, screw around, or take up space is because the coach isn't doing their job.  A great coach can get the laziest kids to run through, over, and around brick walls while the bad coach just waits for the super stud athletes to do their heavy lifting for them and lets the the lazy kids wash out as you say.  In fact, the bad coach usually hopes the lazy uncommitted kids quit while the great coach wants every kid they can find.

I am a much better teacher than coach.  I teach the same way with the same material no matter who is in my room.  When I teach math, there is only one way I know how and everyone gets taught the same way.  I try to do the same in sports.  I don't know how to do it any other way with any success.  When I get the student who is that one in a million, I try to help them find additional challenges outside the room if needed.  I just don't do it in the room to the detriment of everyone else.  I still love the stories of the Green Bay Packer glory days where all they did was practice the Packer sweep over and over again.  Everyone knew it was coming but no one could stop them.

[lizard king]

I believe we need to start by getting more kids and coaches interested in Fargo.   At the state tournament talk to the coaches at a meeting and encourage them to talk to their kids.  Maybe even hand out a flyer with Fargo information and training information.

Side note; I would also like to see us take more kids to senior nations in Virginia, WOW, what a tournament!

[billymurphy]

I admit that Minnesota, Iowa and Illinois do have better high school wrestling.
And I certainly was happy with the coaches that Wisconsin had when I went through.
But that does not mean that just because Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois are likely to finish ahead
of Team Wisconsin that we do not at least send one team to the National Duals. 
Please somebody step forward and at least send a junior freestyle team to the national duals next year.
I realize that money is involved but it is a black eye that WI does not even field a team for such a fantastic event.
You cannot claim that the money is better spent since it is clear that the Fargo results have clearly not
been better since the decision to not compete at the National Duals.

[bman]

I don't believe the (lack of) results in Fargo is due to not participating in the National Duals. The duals have their pros and cons.  I probably would not send my kids to the duals.  But that is just me.  Someone else may see the duals as being more beneficial.  If my kids qualified for the team and chose not to go, that would just open up spots for someone that wanted to go and thought it would be of benefit to them.  I wouldn't want my kids adding one more weigh in, and going through the grind of 15 matches one month prior to Fargo.  They may come home beat up, injured and/or drained which disrupts the schedule if you are truly trying to train for Fargo.  However, Wisconsin's results at Fargo have been short of the talent I think we have in this state.  There are definitely issues, but I can't identify or put my finger on them yet.  Certainly we have more talent than our (freestyle especially) results would indicate.  I am sure the WWF would welcome any of you to their fall meeting to discuss, as well as provide feedback and suggestions.   

[littleguy301]

being a pushy parent and a supportive parent is a fine line.

bottom line is that parents can do what they want but it come down to the individual athlete what they are going to push themselves into what ever level.

I hope that the kids doesnt try to achieve the best because that is solely what the parent wants. I hope the parent guide them into a direction and is supportive and the athlete decides or puts in the time to do so.

just my take.

[littleguy301]

To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem.  I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero.  Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment.  You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner.  Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.

Harris...I think I agree with your general post. I may be nitpicking specifics here...sorry if I am.

The one "issue" I have with your statement...The "pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion...". I don't believe that the Ben Provisors and Jesse Thielkes got where they are without the pushy parent standing behind, next to and in front of the kid? I know the stories of putting young Ben in a car to travel to practice on a school night while he did homework in the car. Granted...the Olympian is a small percentage of the athletic community. But the dream has to start sometime and somewhere. Nobody thought Ben Provisor at age 5 would be a 2x Olympian. I wonder when that belief came to him. I will guess his HS coaches didn't see that. He was one (talented) kid in a HS room of 40

I would guess that the greater percentage of Olympians had that "pushy parent" in their corner as compared to those that made the Olympics without the "pushy parent". I am guessing it is a rarity to have a state champ didn't get there without the support of a "pushy parent" these days. The days of someone showing up out of the blue to stand on top of the podium are gone.

I agree...every kid on the mat is just as important as the next. But not every kid on the mat has the same goals.

Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?

Maybe (because of lack of resources) a coach may have to plan their practices/training to fit the group...not the individual. And it makes sense to coach to the lowest common denominator...the lowest (or lower) skill level in the room. Thus the "higher level" athlete feels unchallenged in the practice room. He ends up feeling frustrated and shares that frustration with their parent (because we have taught our kids to be respectful and do what the coach tells you to do). 

So here comes the "pushy parent" trying to explain to the coach what they see. Maybe the parent explains things in an abrupt/combative tone (remember...many of these parents were wrestlers...trained in a combat sport). Coach doesn't like the tone and informs parent of that. And ultimately Coach and Pushy Parent butt heads. Pushy Parent is put in a crappy situation...trying to help their kid get the most out of the sport but is now at odds with the coach.

I know of a wrestler who wrote a goal freshman year of HS and gave it to his coach. The goal was to wrestle for a D1 college. Coach had a meeting with the parent and the wrestler and explained to them that a low percentage of HS wrestlers ever compete in college and even a lower percentage at a D1 level. He continued to explain that it was okay to just enjoy the sport and there was nothing wrong if you never attained that goal. I think the parent told the coach he should "embrace the goal and not crap on a dream" (maybe he told him something else...I would have said "go to blazes") and the coach preceded to avoid that parent for the next 4 years and that wrestler was frustrated with the sport for the next 4 years.

while I am late to this chatter, the last paragraph about the freshman goal of being a D1 wrestling struck me as a talking point.

I think to a coach that is a single big dream or goal to set. Though I would have asked the wrestler and parent this.

Going backwards what are some things you need to do to achieve that goal. so image yourself as a D1 wrestling, looking back at the last 4 years what did you do to achieve that goal.

I have heard this D1 statement from parents and wrestlers at a younger than freshman age say this. I ask that very question to the athlete and parent and usually get no response or they are not sure as to what to say.

I cannt blame this high school coach not making this 1 wrestlers goal come true. hopefully he has a room full of kids that also need the same attention to make the team aspect grow.

I look at it as,,,asking a coach to make they kid a D1 wrestler is alittle out of line. JMO. If it is a high school coach that is. Now if that same family went to the AWA and sat down with those coaches and said the same thing, now I think they are on to something.

No rip on any high school coach at all. I would bet there are some out there and I know there is, that will get kids into a D1 school but with that said, they also have a school sport to take care of, responsible to many kids in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not inappropriate term9 around in school and such. Those things take up some time where as maybe a club coach and just worry more about the actual sport of wrestler. 

once again, JMO

[bulldog]

To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem.  I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero.  Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment.  You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner.  Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.

Harris...I think I agree with your general post. I may be nitpicking specifics here...sorry if I am.

The one "issue" I have with your statement...The "pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion...". I don't believe that the Ben Provisors and Jesse Thielkes got where they are without the pushy parent standing behind, next to and in front of the kid? I know the stories of putting young Ben in a car to travel to practice on a school night while he did homework in the car. Granted...the Olympian is a small percentage of the athletic community. But the dream has to start sometime and somewhere. Nobody thought Ben Provisor at age 5 would be a 2x Olympian. I wonder when that belief came to him. I will guess his HS coaches didn't see that. He was one (talented) kid in a HS room of 40

I would guess that the greater percentage of Olympians had that "pushy parent" in their corner as compared to those that made the Olympics without the "pushy parent". I am guessing it is a rarity to have a state champ didn't get there without the support of a "pushy parent" these days. The days of someone showing up out of the blue to stand on top of the podium are gone.

I agree...every kid on the mat is just as important as the next. But not every kid on the mat has the same goals.

Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?

Maybe (because of lack of resources) a coach may have to plan their practices/training to fit the group...not the individual. And it makes sense to coach to the lowest common denominator...the lowest (or lower) skill level in the room. Thus the "higher level" athlete feels unchallenged in the practice room. He ends up feeling frustrated and shares that frustration with their parent (because we have taught our kids to be respectful and do what the coach tells you to do). 

So here comes the "pushy parent" trying to explain to the coach what they see. Maybe the parent explains things in an abrupt/combative tone (remember...many of these parents were wrestlers...trained in a combat sport). Coach doesn't like the tone and informs parent of that. And ultimately Coach and Pushy Parent butt heads. Pushy Parent is put in a crappy situation...trying to help their kid get the most out of the sport but is now at odds with the coach.

I know of a wrestler who wrote a goal freshman year of HS and gave it to his coach. The goal was to wrestle for a D1 college. Coach had a meeting with the parent and the wrestler and explained to them that a low percentage of HS wrestlers ever compete in college and even a lower percentage at a D1 level. He continued to explain that it was okay to just enjoy the sport and there was nothing wrong if you never attained that goal. I think the parent told the coach he should "embrace the goal and not crap on a dream" (maybe he told him something else...I would have said "go to blazes") and the coach preceded to avoid that parent for the next 4 years and that wrestler was frustrated with the sport for the next 4 years.

while I am late to this chatter, the last paragraph about the freshman goal of being a D1 wrestling struck me as a talking point.

I think to a coach that is a single big dream or goal to set. Though I would have asked the wrestler and parent this.

Going backwards what are some things you need to do to achieve that goal. so image yourself as a D1 wrestling, looking back at the last 4 years what did you do to achieve that goal.

I have heard this D1 statement from parents and wrestlers at a younger than freshman age say this. I ask that very question to the athlete and parent and usually get no response or they are not sure as to what to say.

I cannt blame this high school coach not making this 1 wrestlers goal come true. hopefully he has a room full of kids that also need the same attention to make the team aspect grow.

I look at it as,,,asking a coach to make they kid a D1 wrestler is alittle out of line. JMO. If it is a high school coach that is. Now if that same family went to the AWA and sat down with those coaches and said the same thing, now I think they are on to something.

No rip on any high school coach at all. I would bet there are some out there and I know there is, that will get kids into a D1 school but with that said, they also have a school sport to take care of, responsible to many kids in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. Those things take up some time where as maybe a club coach and just worry more about the actual sport of wrestler. 

once again, JMO

littleguy301...the point of that story is that the wrestler put that goal down as a freshman and the coach squashed that goal then. How can you "go backwards" when the journey has just started? Unless you are saying look back at the previous 4 years prior to freshman year in HS. And it isn't about "blaming" the coach for the D1 dream not being obtained...but more about the coach not recognizing the goal and helping point the athlete in the right direction.

If the coach wants to be "the guy" and cut the parent out of the process then he needs to address these items. Or he could work with the parent to discuss goals and dreams and how THEY can work TOGETHER to help the kid achieve those goals.

Imagine how much more successful we could be (teams and athletes) if the coach and parent and athlete all discussed goals, agreed on individuals and team goals and worked together on a plan to achieve those goals.

Let's put it in a slightly different arena...say a kid wants to go to Notre Dame for a college education. Who is going to help that kid obtain that goal. Sure he needs to keep his grades up, do community work, keep his nose clean...he needs to do everything he can to get to Notre Dame. Some would say the parent has a level of obligation to help the kid achieve this goal. Does the HS guidance counselor have any level of responsibility to that kid?

So along comes the HS guidance counselor who proceeds to tells the kid (as a freshman) that there really is no way the kid is going to make it into Notre Dame...it is expensive, Notre Dame only take the very elite and/or top percentage of all graduating seniors. So Notre Dame probably won't happen. Besides...that guidance counselor has many kids (probably more then your average wrestling coach) to deal with so the parents shouldn't expect the guidance counselor to take time to guide the kid and offer advice to help that freshman achieve his/her goal of Notre Dame.

Is that what should be expected? The counselor has 100s of kids to deal with. They don't have the time to worry about individuals...they have to worry about graduating as many kids as possible. That is their main objective so don't bother them with individual goals...right?

BTW...the Notre Dame scenario is real. And the guidance counselor (who had several hundred kids to deal with daily) did the job of guiding a young man to achieve that goal. It wasn't easy but she took the time and helped the kid and the parents stay the line to get to that goal.

Also...IMO it isn't the coaches responsibility to be responsible in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. I understand that they do watch this and they end up chasing kids around about grades etc...but if you feel they don't have the time to help guide a kid towards a goal (D1 college wrestler) then why should they be expected to be the team nanny in all other areas? Don't mess with it...Let Johnny know he is inappropriate term9 up and he needs to get his stuff together.

As a parent I deal with my kids grades, discipline, class attendance, etc. I don't expect the coach to have to chase after my kid for this stuff. My kids have 2 parents already...they don't need a third. I would think expectations are for the coach are to coach wrestling and help achieve the wrestling goals for the team...and the individuals on the team.

[nutman]

I am not sure who did what for training for Fargo as I was out of the loop this year.  I think we would all agree that placing at Fargo is much more difficult than placing in our state tournament. (Yes on any given year there may be exceptions)  In order to get ready for the high school state tournaments, almost all athletes are practicing a minimum of 2 hours at their high school practices while engaging at other workouts (weight lifting, extra cardio, club practices, etc.).    In short, training needs to be even more intense for Fargo than a high school season to expect results.  Would we ever practice twice per week for the high school season?  In addition, freestyle and greco have different rules and techniques. 

My guess is that the athletes who became All-Americans or were close, trained as intensely as the high school folkstyle season.  This means they were committed.   This whole discussion needs to focus at the core.
How do we motivate or provide more athletes the opportunity to train with the same intensity for Fargo as they do during the high school season?

IMO, the kids who are committed will train more if:  A) extremely driven; OR B)Enjoys the workouts and the practices...just loves the sport), AND/OR C) It provides for social acceptance, association, and friendship. We have to maintain the opportunities for the wrestlers who fall in these categories.  To get better results the majority of these posts have been focusing on the What's...such as-  How do we provide more opportunities for students to prepare and feel a benefit from doing so?    What opportunities should be our focus?  When is the right time to build in breaks?  How do we get kids to peak at the right time? If only a couple (or fewer) from each high school participate, how do we connect them with practice partners?     

I believe "What's" are really important, but shouldn't the focus to inspire be "Why Fargo?"  or "Why train for Fargo?"  Our job as coaches and parents is to help them find that answer.   

Let's think about this.  If the Why is to wrestle in college let's look at the following:    A parent pointed out the other day on Facebook, 2.6% of high school wrestlers go on to wrestle in the NCAA at any level (1% to D1).  According to the NCAA, there were 6,982 college participants in the NCAA.  According to the wiwrestling.com website Forum Topic "Where are they wrestling there were 20 wrestler in the class of 2015  and 27 in the class of 2016.  (That's an average of about 24 per year.  24 x a  4-year cohort would = approximately 96 wrestling in the NCAA from Wisconsin).  If I am doing the math correctly that means of the NCAA wrestling participants in the entire country, 98.6% came from a state other than Wisconsin.    According to Where they are going to wrestling?  About 11 of the 6982 each year come from Wisconsin    Another 5 per year wrestle NCAA D2 from Wisconsin.  That means each year (excluding NAIA), 16 of our athletes have the opportunity for an NCAA wrestling scholarship.    If getting a scholarship to wrestle is a Why, then we need more high school coaches (and possibly guidance counselors) sharing the importance of Fargo.  Then one would assume if Fargo numbers increase it would correlate to higher numbers of wrestlers going on to college to wrestle.   Another Why, is that the majority of participants in Fargo were also participants in the WIAA state tournament. (don't have time to do the math).  Those are just two of the Why's.  If we really want this to resonate with our wrestlers, they have to be able to answer "Why Fargo?"   If we can come up with a list of Why Fargo and Why Train, then we may be able to convince athletes to establish this as a goal.  I believe the Why's have to be more than just wrestling for a scholarship.

Here's one suggestion if we can target some Why's.  Possibly at the WIAA state wrestling tournament, where we have our biggest crowd- We could create some sort of a commercial on the video board playing over and over with a some interviews of post-college athletes (unless it is allowable to have high school athletes) sponsored in part by WWF and/or the Private Clubs with a "Why Fargo?" campaign. Wisconsin is fortunate to have many nationally recognized wrestling names.  Can you imagine the little wrestlers watching the state tournament with their dreams of wrestling in Madison and seeing on the big video screen of the importance of Fargo in getting there? 

I just know the focus has to be on the athletes as they are the ones who have to get the job done.

[lizard king]

Good post!

[bulldog]

I like your point of view Nutman. I ran some numbers after the 2016 WIAA State Tournament and compared it to Fargo participants. This may help your point of view. In 2015 Wisconsin sent 116 wrestlers to Fargo. Of that 116 27 did not make it to the state tournament...89 did. Figure there are 42 champions (14 weight classes x 3 divisions)...24 2015-2016 WIAA state champions wrestled in Fargo in 2015.

Of the 89 2015 Fargo participants that made it to the 2015-2016 WIAA state tournament...72 of them placed at the WIAA state tournament.

I have been planning to run this years participants and compare how they did in the 2016 State Tournament but just have not gotten to it yet. Now it becomes a "cart and horse" question...were the 116 who went to Fargo in 2015 already good enough to get to the WIAA state tournament without Fargo or did the preparation for Fargo make them good enough to get to the State Tournament? 560 athletes make it to the state tournament...so 471 didn't go to Fargo. I can argue both sides of the topic.

But the 58% state champs came out of Fargo is a pretty strong statement (38% of the state runner ups came out of Fargo also)

OH..and want an argument from a team standpoint? Hudson, Mukwonago, Kaukauna, Stoughton had more participants at Fargo then any other WI High School team. These 4 teams made it to the D1 state team tournament and 3 of the four made it through the first round at team state (Kaukauna knocked off Hudson in the first round)

[littleguy301]

To those pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion and they deserve favoritism or special treatment, you are the real problem.  I have seen the most un-athletic, crying middle schooler become a state champ in high school while the sure thing middle school athlete self destructs and brings the whole organization to ground zero.  Great coaches and great organizations realize that all kids develop differently and all athletes deserve the same treatment.  You never know who is going to be the next John Peterson type who develops later, rather than sooner.  Every kid on that mat is just as important as the next.

Harris...I think I agree with your general post. I may be nitpicking specifics here...sorry if I am.

The one "issue" I have with your statement...The "pushy parents out there who think their kid is going to be the next gold medal Olympic champion...". I don't believe that the Ben Provisors and Jesse Thielkes got where they are without the pushy parent standing behind, next to and in front of the kid? I know the stories of putting young Ben in a car to travel to practice on a school night while he did homework in the car. Granted...the Olympian is a small percentage of the athletic community. But the dream has to start sometime and somewhere. Nobody thought Ben Provisor at age 5 would be a 2x Olympian. I wonder when that belief came to him. I will guess his HS coaches didn't see that. He was one (talented) kid in a HS room of 40

I would guess that the greater percentage of Olympians had that "pushy parent" in their corner as compared to those that made the Olympics without the "pushy parent". I am guessing it is a rarity to have a state champ didn't get there without the support of a "pushy parent" these days. The days of someone showing up out of the blue to stand on top of the podium are gone.

I agree...every kid on the mat is just as important as the next. But not every kid on the mat has the same goals.

Also, I don't agree that every athlete deserves the same treatment...would you throw an unseasoned (1st year) wrestler into a high level training session? Probably not. So why treat the seasoned wrestler the same as the 1st year wrestler in the room?

Maybe (because of lack of resources) a coach may have to plan their practices/training to fit the group...not the individual. And it makes sense to coach to the lowest common denominator...the lowest (or lower) skill level in the room. Thus the "higher level" athlete feels unchallenged in the practice room. He ends up feeling frustrated and shares that frustration with their parent (because we have taught our kids to be respectful and do what the coach tells you to do). 

So here comes the "pushy parent" trying to explain to the coach what they see. Maybe the parent explains things in an abrupt/combative tone (remember...many of these parents were wrestlers...trained in a combat sport). Coach doesn't like the tone and informs parent of that. And ultimately Coach and Pushy Parent butt heads. Pushy Parent is put in a crappy situation...trying to help their kid get the most out of the sport but is now at odds with the coach.

I know of a wrestler who wrote a goal freshman year of HS and gave it to his coach. The goal was to wrestle for a D1 college. Coach had a meeting with the parent and the wrestler and explained to them that a low percentage of HS wrestlers ever compete in college and even a lower percentage at a D1 level. He continued to explain that it was okay to just enjoy the sport and there was nothing wrong if you never attained that goal. I think the parent told the coach he should "embrace the goal and not crap on a dream" (maybe he told him something else...I would have said "go to blazes") and the coach preceded to avoid that parent for the next 4 years and that wrestler was frustrated with the sport for the next 4 years.

while I am late to this chatter, the last paragraph about the freshman goal of being a D1 wrestling struck me as a talking point.

I think to a coach that is a single big dream or goal to set. Though I would have asked the wrestler and parent this.

Going backwards what are some things you need to do to achieve that goal. so image yourself as a D1 wrestling, looking back at the last 4 years what did you do to achieve that goal.

I have heard this D1 statement from parents and wrestlers at a younger than freshman age say this. I ask that very question to the athlete and parent and usually get no response or they are not sure as to what to say.

I cannt blame this high school coach not making this 1 wrestlers goal come true. hopefully he has a room full of kids that also need the same attention to make the team aspect grow.

I look at it as,,,asking a coach to make they kid a D1 wrestler is alittle out of line. JMO. If it is a high school coach that is. Now if that same family went to the AWA and sat down with those coaches and said the same thing, now I think they are on to something.

No rip on any high school coach at all. I would bet there are some out there and I know there is, that will get kids into a D1 school but with that said, they also have a school sport to take care of, responsible to many kids in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. Those things take up some time where as maybe a club coach and just worry more about the actual sport of wrestler. 

once again, JMO

littleguy301...the point of that story is that the wrestler put that goal down as a freshman and the coach squashed that goal then. How can you "go backwards" when the journey has just started? Unless you are saying look back at the previous 4 years prior to freshman year in HS. And it isn't about "blaming" the coach for the D1 dream not being obtained...but more about the coach not recognizing the goal and helping point the athlete in the right direction.

If the coach wants to be "the guy" and cut the parent out of the process then he needs to address these items. Or he could work with the parent to discuss goals and dreams and how THEY can work TOGETHER to help the kid achieve those goals.

Imagine how much more successful we could be (teams and athletes) if the coach and parent and athlete all discussed goals, agreed on individuals and team goals and worked together on a plan to achieve those goals.

Let's put it in a slightly different arena...say a kid wants to go to Notre Dame for a college education. Who is going to help that kid obtain that goal. Sure he needs to keep his grades up, do community work, keep his nose clean...he needs to do everything he can to get to Notre Dame. Some would say the parent has a level of obligation to help the kid achieve this goal. Does the HS guidance counselor have any level of responsibility to that kid?

So along comes the HS guidance counselor who proceeds to tells the kid (as a freshman) that there really is no way the kid is going to make it into Notre Dame...it is expensive, Notre Dame only take the very elite and/or top percentage of all graduating seniors. So Notre Dame probably won't happen. Besides...that guidance counselor has many kids (probably more then your average wrestling coach) to deal with so the parents shouldn't expect the guidance counselor to take time to guide the kid and offer advice to help that freshman achieve his/her goal of Notre Dame.

Is that what should be expected? The counselor has 100s of kids to deal with. They don't have the time to worry about individuals...they have to worry about graduating as many kids as possible. That is their main objective so don't bother them with individual goals...right?

BTW...the Notre Dame scenario is real. And the guidance counselor (who had several hundred kids to deal with daily) did the job of guiding a young man to achieve that goal. It wasn't easy but she took the time and helped the kid and the parents stay the line to get to that goal.

Also...IMO it isn't the coaches responsibility to be responsible in the area of grades, disipline, attendence in class, not messing around in school and such. I understand that they do watch this and they end up chasing kids around about grades etc...but if you feel they don't have the time to help guide a kid towards a goal (D1 college wrestler) then why should they be expected to be the team nanny in all other areas? Don't mess with it...Let Johnny know he is messing up and he needs to get his stuff together.

As a parent I deal with my kids grades, discipline, class attendance, etc. I don't expect the coach to have to chase after my kid for this stuff. My kids have 2 parents already...they don't need a third. I would think expectations are for the coach are to coach wrestling and help achieve the wrestling goals for the team...and the individuals on the team.

well since the coach squashed his dream please explain if this wrestler made it to the D1 level? All because the coach said to write down lesser goals the wrestler failed.

bulldog, if you came to me and asked me how to lose 20 pounds and that is your goal. I would give you some idea and I WOULD ask you what are some things YOU can do to achieve your goals. I may state something like "start off with 1 change a day and see if you can drop 5 pounds in 2 weeks"

you need lesser goals to achieve the great goal. To become a D1 wrestler I would think that wrestlers should be working his butt off out side the wrestling room also. Maybe if 1 coach isnt supportive, find another coach, find a weightlifting person and so on.

also, while I am sure you take care of your son, whether you believe me or not, there is many people out there that do NOT do the same and sometimes the coach has to be the one or a helping hand with the AD, principle and teacher.