WWCA looking for head coaches' opinions

[Ty Clark]

I'm still not sold on full JHI on the varsity level. I believe it would better serve the sport and the wrestlers to have JHI on the junior varsity level only.

- Obviously a good 8th grader will get better competition against 9th-11th graders, even if they aren't varsity, than he would against other 7th-8th graders.
- It would increase the numbers on the JV level enough to have duals (or at least more match ups).
- It could cut down schools' costs by combining the teams. (Of course you wouldn't have to eliminate JH wrestling completely.)
- It would further promote the idea of earning one's way onto varsity--- all wrestlers will have to compete on JV at some point.
- There could be more JV tournaments. Only need 8-10 teams per tournament, instead of having all of these 25 team JV tournaments where you can travel an hour in different directions, but still see the exact same teams every weekend.
- The physical difference between a 7th grader and a JV 11th grader is a lot less than between a 7th grader and a varsity senior.
- It could better bridge that gap between youth wrestling and high school where we are losing so many kids.
- It would make the WWCS Tournament pretty interesting. It would be like kids state on steroids.

[Handles II]

Ty, I'm not sure what you mean by "full JHI on the varsity level". I hope you aren't under the assumption that all 7th and 8th graders are put on varsity in MN? That would be untrue. Only those who get or earn a spot are on varsity. Absolutely no different than any other wrestler at any other grade in any other state, or in any other sport for that matter. So what is the doubt about then?
The kids with the talent can win, get great experience for their ability level, and help the team. The others are on JV gain experience at their level and help the team. Again, no different than anywhere else, and, as LG301 said, it's up to the district anyway.

If you watch guys like Brady Berge, Patrick Kennedy, Mark Hall, wrestle when they were in 7th and 8th grade against 11th and 12th graders, there's no doubt they belong, and while those are a couple outstanding examples, there's plenty more others kicking tail too. And of course it isn't just in wrestling. My 8th grade 106lber went to State in CC this year. Our top 1600 meter runner in track is an 8th grade girl. Both are faster than some of their older teammates. Both help the team more. I'm not sure I see the difference in them being 8th vs. 9th grade and it being ok or not ok.

[Barou]

I'm still not sold on full JHI on the varsity level. I believe it would better serve the sport and the wrestlers to have JHI on the junior varsity level only.

- Obviously a good 8th grader will get better competition against 9th-11th graders, even if they aren't varsity, than he would against other 7th-8th graders.
- It would increase the numbers on the JV level enough to have duals (or at least more match ups).
- It could cut down schools' costs by combining the teams. (Of course you wouldn't have to eliminate JH wrestling completely.)
- It would further promote the idea of earning one's way onto varsity--- all wrestlers will have to compete on JV at some point.
- There could be more JV tournaments. Only need 8-10 teams per tournament, instead of having all of these 25 team JV tournaments where you can travel an hour in different directions, but still see the exact same teams every weekend.
- The physical difference between a 7th grader and a JV 11th grader is a lot less than between a 7th grader and a varsity senior.
- It could better bridge that gap between youth wrestling and high school where we are losing so many kids.
- It would make the WWCS Tournament pretty interesting. It would be like kids state on steroids.

What is there not to be "sold" on?  There is judgment to be used for athletes, parents, and coaches.  Some 7th graders are physically and mentally prepared to compete at a varsity level in football.  Some 11th graders aren't.  JHI ='s opportunity.  

When I coached in Minnesota sports had an A, B, and C team which is basically varsity, jv, and junior high.  Very few but some junior high (7th and 8th grader since that has now turned into an issue) athletes competed on varsity.  From what I can remember one year there were no JH kids on varsity football.  1 JH girl on girls volleyball.  1 or 2 for cross country with a lot on JV.  2 wrestling starters on varsity and about a 50/50 mix between JV and "C" team.  Also a couple freshman and sophomore newer kids on the C team.  Neither basketball team had any JH kids on varsity both had a few on JV.  Many JH kids competed in varsity track (probably 6 or 7 for both).  One kid played both varsity and JV baseball.  That's what I remember off the top and every kid that competed on varsity was mentally and physically at that level.  We also had 1 7th grader and 1 8th grader where the parents did not want their kid wrestling on varsity as they did not think they were prepared yet.  They did, however, allow them to compete in some dual meets depending on the opponent.  So I guess a little communication is necessary.

[aarons23]

I am very frustrated with the conversation of consolidation as is everyone I speak to about the topic so I thought I would share some comments made by several committed wrestling family's.
Mind you these are advanced wrestling family's.
Question: How do you feel about WI dropping weight classes?
1. We have been thinking of jumping the river so my kids can start varsity in Jr high any way.
2. I hope it's a heavier weight, those kids can do other sports.
3. Doesn't affect my kids, they will bump out anyone on the team.
4. This could be a good thing, with less partners in the room the coach will probably let us miss some practices to get to our club team.
5. Who cares it will never happen after what the WIAA this year they won't want another black eye.
6. My kid is not afraid to cut weight so he will be fine.
7. And the most common response, are any other states doing this?

3 more and we can make it a top 10 like David Letterman 

You are correct though...the wrong way to build a sport is by tearing it down.  I just wish Wisconsin would spend as much time working on ways to recruite and retain more than or atleast as much as they do trying to reduce weight classes.

[Handles II]

Bottom line is that the NFHS went to 14 weights as an effort to improve the sport and increase participation. It didn't work, at least not in WI  We have the numbers for 10 years showing it.
It has helped increased the numbers of forfeits, decreased the number of programs in the state.

I guess my focus would be on reversing those two trends at a statewide/sportwide level. Otherwise you are trying to get an engine to run with a cracked block.

[aarons23]

Bottom line is that the NFHS went to 14 weights as an effort to improve the sport and increase participation. It didn't work, at least not in WI  We have the numbers for 10 years showing it.
It has helped increased the numbers of forfeits, decreased the number of programs in the state.

I guess my focus would be on reversing those two trends at a statewide/sportwide level. Otherwise you are trying to get an engine to run with a cracked block.

14 weight classes didnt cause those 2 trends......lack of focus and attention to recruiting and retaining did.  Yes recruiting and retaining is harder than it used to be.....but so are many other things....taking the easy back door approach will just hurt wrestling over all in the long run.  Keep reducing and you will push it into a club sport only.....and loose it in high school.  Concentrate an recruiting and retention.

[Handles II]

Aarons, I HIGHLY doubt that statewide, and even based off our numbers, that nation wide recruiting and efforts to retain kids dropped. In fact I'm positive that coaches are and have been working harder than ever to recruit and retain BECAUSE there are 14 weights and adding two more forfeits not only can cause a loss in matches, but it shows you can't fill a varsity roster and that looks bad on the coach and the program.

Ghetto was offended on another thread when this type of thing was said, and I'm offended in this one. I'll defend all of the coaches that I personally know who turn over every rock to get a kid, be it a 9th or 12th grader to join the sport. To say we have not put forth the effort is blasphemy and a complete insult and cop out on what really happened. Wrestling is a difficult sport to get kids out for, and more weights were added making it even harder. Plain and simple.

Why are we one of the only sports that has to constantly try to recruit kids who have zero experience into the sport simply to fill the extensive number of varsity slots? 

[imnofish]

Handles, your post just reminded me that all those new recruits are potentially future wrestling fans, coaches, officials, and parents of wrestlers.  Maybe that investment of our time to recruit them will result in great future benefits for our sport. 

[MNbadger]

It is not about recruiting.
Someone on here or the guillotine actually showed numbers where schools increased the number of wrestlers in their rooms.

The problem is that we don't make the weight divisions where the kids are.  I have posted this previously and posted the CDC links showing the age and weight data.

[aarons23]

It is not about recruiting.
Someone on here or the guillotine actually showed numbers where schools increased the number of wrestlers in their rooms.

The problem is that we don't make the weight divisions where the kids are.  I have posted this previously and posted the CDC links showing the age and weight data.

So you think reducing weights help....and yes it is about recruiting and retaining. ....its harder to recruit kids eith more options and generally the change in society.   Doesnt mean we should give up and take the easy way out.

[Handles II]

Handles, your post just reminded me that all those new recruits are potentially future wrestling fans, coaches, officials, and parents of wrestlers.  Maybe that investment of our time to recruit them will result in great future benefits for our sport. 

Yes, which is one reason why coaches recruit. But we were told that the increase in forfeits is due to coaches not putting in the time and effort to recruit and retain. That's complete and udder b.s. We are almost the ONLY sport that due to the high number of varsity spots must try to recruit kids who have no knowledge or experience in the sport to come out, and so very often it's simply to help fill those spots. That's a shame.

[MNbadger]

It is not about recruiting.
Someone on here or the guillotine actually showed numbers where schools increased the number of wrestlers in their rooms.

The problem is that we don't make the weight divisions where the kids are.  I have posted this previously and posted the CDC links showing the age and weight data.

So you think reducing weights help....and yes it is about recruiting and retaining. ....its harder to recruit kids eith more options and generally the change in society.   Doesnt mean we should give up and take the easy way out.

No, I am against retraction!  I would be for adding weights.  We need to make the weight divisions fit the population of kids we are supposed to be serving.

[Ghetto]

In 2012-13 8946 kids body fat test. This year 8007.

[Ghetto]

That's pretty awesome.

I hope he can keep it up. Sustainability comes with him not having to do it himself and finding long term parents to continue to build what he has started.

[Jeff Farrell]

Great story there in Neenah!