No more waiting!!!

[Handles II]

BDBacker,
You may or may not recall that many youth programs in the past didn't even start until 4th grade or later. Many schools didn't even have them. Youth wrestling would last 1 month rather than 7. There were 1 or 2 tournaments around, no "state" series, etc. So perhaps kids didn't quit as often because they were older and more mentally/physically ready for it? And there were certainly fewer other options for kids in yesteryear.  If youth wrestling was the same animal then as now, would we have similar levels of retention?

Things to ponder.

[DocWrestling]

I don't disagree at all but I think that ship has sailed and will be gone for decades and then maybe return.

I do think that many coaches focus on the matches and wins and losses too much at the younger levels.  We should just be building all the kids egos that they are studs for working so hard and getting through that practice.  All wrestlers need to feel the pride of being a wrestler and putting in the hard work and then they will want to be a wrestler no matter if they win or lose.  Now many win early and are focused on regionals and state, etc and then when things get much tougher in middle school and high school, they bail.  We also give them awards for every match through youth wrestling and then in middle school wrestling they get nothing and then in high school they get nothing.  It is the coaches and the programs that have put the emphasis on awards and matches.

Us coaches are a big part of the problem because in all sports it is now about more competitions and less practice.  The focus is on the best wrestlers and not numbers.

I believe we would have much higher numbers in high school if there was no youth wrestling until 6th grade.  Now the top wrestlers may not be as good but your top athletes would still get darn close to as good as starting earlier

[guillotine]

College has 10 weight classes starting at 125 and goes to 285.  There is no 106, 113, 120 or 220.  There's 4 weight classes right there that account for 14 vs 10.  However, in high school there are numbers in the 106, 113, 120 and 220 weights that are extremely competitive.  Not a lot of 195 pounders can handle the strength/size difference up to 285 so I'd leave the 220 in there.  I wouldn't touch the light weights either.

I base this entirely on statistics and fact  but my biggest beef isn't that we have forfeits with the small schools.  It's the reward to the team that fields the wrestler.  An unearned 6 pt team victory is ridiculous.  I don't have a solution but this is where I see the problem more so than how many weight classes we have.  Wrestle what we have, take away the big bonus points for forfeits and maybe we don't have a problem.

So in this situation I bring my two studs to each dual meet, leave the rest of the team home win those two matches every week. 10 minute dual. Sounds like a great way to build our sport.

[DocWrestling]

It made me have a provocative thought!!!!  OH! OH!

In basketball a stud could score 20 points.

What if we allowed a wrestler to wrestle more than once in a dual?   Would we be against a wrestler wrestling at 126, then at 132, and then at 138 if the coach wanted it?  Coach would have to decide on fatigue?  Maybe he wrestles 126, takes a match off, and wrestles 138?  Maybe we allow a stud to wrestle only 2 matches rather than 3 in a dual?

Do we allow the studs to try and earn more than 6 points?

Why can't a wrestler wrestle JV and varsity?  Many other sports allow that.

Just thinking crazily outside of the box.  I am not stuck on traditional models.

[Troy Grindle]

*11 weight classes.  You cant cut the little guys out just like you can't cut out the big guys.

105, 115, 125, 135, 143, 151, 159, 170, 185, 210, 285

*No growth allowance ever not even back to back wrestling days.  143 the third day of the state tournament is still 143.  That will make it impossible to cut excessive amounts of weight and drop a weight class  after Christmas.  If you body is growing you will simply grow into a larger weight class.  You won't be able to cut 10-15% of your body weight and keep it off for 2-3 days and be at the top of your wrestling.  Kids will try at first to do it and their wrestling will suffer and then they will go to where their body should be.

*Go to 4 equal divisions for wrestling.  No more the largest 128 schools go D1.  It perplexes me why D1 is 128 schools and D2&3 are 94 schools.  I know they did it back in the day because the numbers for all 3 division were pretty equal but they aren't now with so many schools dropping or cooping wrestling.  With 11 weight classes and 4 divisions you would still have 44 state champions, 2 more than we have currently.  More opportunities to have your school represented at individual and team state.  I also think that it might help with kids not open enrolling because teams would be more competitive.  The great teams will still be great but I think it might deter a kid from open enrolling because their current school district is competitive and they might have to sit on j.v. for a year at the powerhouse team.  Which is what I think wrestling needs, more competitive matches.

[DocWrestling]

*11 weight classes.  You cant cut the little guys out just like you can't cut out the big guys.

105, 115, 125, 135, 143, 151, 159, 170, 185, 210, 285

*No growth allowance ever not even back to back wrestling days.  143 the third day of the state tournament is still 143.  That will make it impossible to cut excessive amounts of weight and drop a weight class  after Christmas.  If you body is growing you will simply grow into a larger weight class.  You won't be able to cut 10-15% of your body weight and keep it off for 2-3 days and be at the top of your wrestling.  Kids will try at first to do it and their wrestling will suffer and then they will go to where their body should be.

*Go to 4 equal divisions for wrestling.  No more the largest 128 schools go D1.  It perplexes me why D1 is 128 schools and D2&3 are 94 schools.  I know they did it back in the day because the numbers for all 3 division were pretty equal but they aren't now with so many schools dropping or cooping wrestling.  With 11 weight classes and 4 divisions you would still have 44 state champions, 2 more than we have currently.  More opportunities to have your school represented at individual and team state.  I also think that it might help with kids not open enrolling because teams would be more competitive.  The great teams will still be great but I think it might deter a kid from open enrolling because their current school district is competitive and they might have to sit on j.v. for a year at the powerhouse team.  Which is what I think wrestling needs, more competitive matches.

+1  Great idea.   11 weight classes for duals, 4 divisions for team state but to get this passed maybe leave it at three divisions (with equal # of teams) and 14 weight classes for the individual state tournament.  They do not need to be the same!

[MarkK]

Troy I like that idea.   Certainly worth thinking about.  I'm not sure it will gain much traction, I think the 11 weight classes has a good chance.  And I think they need to rethink div 1 and the rest.   It doesn't make a lot of sense now.  The numbers have changed from it's inception.

[thequad]

 First I think weight cutting at the end of the season is terrible. This has to be one of the worst things we can allow our kids to do for their health. I don't believe that a kid at that age can go 3 months without growing some. If they are carrying that much much extra weight loose some before practice season starts and loose the rest in 2 or 3 weeks of practice. Then maybe some growth allowance. After a certain period of time no going down in weight, mid to late December. or 3 weeks after the earliest date wrestling can start. if you wrestle above that weight you must still weigh in at that weight or stay up the rest of the season. For example a wrestler weighs in all year for 145 and drops 7 pounds at the end of the season is ridiculous.

As for the number of weight classes, I think the big weights should stay, kids are getting bigger all the time, but keep the little guys also. Maybe cut down to 13 classes?

[ramjet]

College has 10 weight classes starting at 125 and goes to 285.  There is no 106, 113, 120 or 220.  There's 4 weight classes right there that account for 14 vs 10.  However, in high school there are numbers in the 106, 113, 120 and 220 weights that are extremely competitive.  Not a lot of 195 pounders can handle the strength/size difference up to 285 so I'd leave the 220 in there.  I wouldn't touch the light weights either.

I base this entirely on statistics and fact  but my biggest beef isn't that we have forfeits with the small schools.  It's the reward to the team that fields the wrestler.  An unearned 6 pt team victory is ridiculous.  I don't have a solution but this is where I see the problem more so than how many weight classes we have.  Wrestle what we have, take away the big bonus points for forfeits and maybe we don't have a problem.

So in this situation I bring my two studs to each dual meet, leave the rest of the team home win those two matches every week. 10 minute dual. Sounds like a great way to build our sport.

This happens already the worse part of it teams could wrestle up and take the FF points instead. I say dump FF points or diminish thier effect and you will have less.

[ramjet]

So maybe thier is a way to do this without cutting the weight classes.

1.) FF are worth 2 points.
2.) FF do not count as win on anyone's record.

Dual meet two teams this may encourage the teams to put wrestlers in the mat instead of taking the FF points.

It seems we reward a team too much for a FF so why shouldn't they use them or take them for a team win?

Now you make the matches actually wrestled with far more and you encourage teams and coaches to wrestle the matches. After all we hate FF or do we actually hate the points it gives the opposing teams?

See a 2 point FF will have as profound an impact on the final score always keeping the match within reach if you win the matches actually wrestled especially if it is won by pin.

[DocWrestling]

If Forfeits were worth 2 points wouldn't coaches forfeit more often when they think they will get pinned or majored?  Heck even if they think they could lose they could forfeit to give up 2 points rather than give up 3 in a decision.

Am I misunderstanding you?

[Ty Clark]

Making forfeits worth less than a pin would make the number of forfeits double... at least.

My idea: Like drawing for the starting weight class before weigh ins, coaches could draw 11 times, and only the 11 weight classes drawn would count toward the team score. You could wrestle straight-up or bump your guys around to the scoring weight classes (either to fill a hole or get your better kid in the scoring line up). I'd even be for increasing to 15 weight classes and counting 12 matches in duals, with the tie breaker being the team with the most wins in the three "non-scoring" matches (as a way to make those matches important, other than for individual stats). Obviously this would be for duals only and tournaments would still score all of the weights.

[ramjet]

What's important in dual meet?

Winning

14 Weights

Team A has 9 weights covered without any movement.

Team B has the same 9 plus two more covered than team A

They double FF the two not covered or I guess they could move away from a wrestler but that move only gets them 2 points.

So Team B goes up under today's rules up 12 points.

Under my proposed rules they have only a 4 point lead.

Team A wins the flip they gotta chance. Yes it comes down to the flip. But more so the head to head matches not the FF points. Because with major you can make up for two FF. Or with Pin you get to make up three FF.

Better head to head matches.

Am I wrong?

[Ty Clark]

Team A wins the flip they gotta chance. Yes it comes down to the flip. But more so the head to head matches not the FF points. Because with major you can make up for two FF. Or with Pin you get to make up three FF.

Better head to head matches.

Am I wrong?

You have a stud at 152... I have a crappy kid. Why would I put him out there to give you 6 points when I could just forfeit and give you 2? You could realistically win duals with only 4 wrestlers against a team with 14. Have four kids who can win by pin for 24 points, then forfeit the other 10 weights to give up only 20 points.

[ramjet]

Team A wins the flip they gotta chance. Yes it comes down to the flip. But more so the head to head matches not the FF points. Because with major you can make up for two FF. Or with Pin you get to make up three FF.

Better head to head matches.

Am I wrong?

You have a stud at 152... I have a crappy kid. Why would I put him out there to give you 6 points when I could just forfeit and give you 2? You could realistically win duals with only 4 wrestlers against a team with 14. Have four kids who can win by pin for 24 points, then forfeit the other 10 weights to give up only 20 points.

Exactly so if you could win 1 of those head to head matches you got it ......right? I.e. competition and exciting.

or cut the number of weights and force the head to head matches.

This is a huge issue in DIII it needs to be addressed just bouncing ideas.

So how about NO movement wrestle the head to head and give three points for a FF. Turn in the lineup ahead of time no coin flip.