No more waiting!!!

[DocWrestling]

Using the college weights plus a 115 would greatly improve the sport in my mind.  The best interest of the sport overall has to be put above any individual wrestlers.  I agree that some of our lightest wrestlers might be affected and it will not be perfect for everyone.

I would have no growth allowance.

I would have a rule that you have to wrestle 75% of your matches on the season at the weight you wish to compete at for the state tournament series.  If you want to cut then you cut all year long!

I would have every weight class reduced by 10 lbs for different JV weight classes.

I believe that 99% of wrestlers would be at a weight to compete in by the time they are junior and seniors.  Some of our smallest kids might be too small as freshman but that does not mean they cannot wrestle.  Very few freshman can compete at 157 on a varsity level so it is not a travesty in my mind if some freshman are too small to compete at 115 as a freshman.  Look at what some of the 106 lbers competed at this weekend at the Dells.

I know we have some small kids that will be affected by not having a weight class under 110 lbs but the positives for the sport have to outweigh those interests.  The new weight classes (college) will also make it difficult for some of those 215 lbers that will now have to wrestle 285 lbers.

Compromise-  make the dual season 11 weight classes and keep the individual state tournament the same to allow more kids to compete.  Helps the individuals plus the teams.

[Ghetto]

JZ,

Can I call you JZ?  

You know I don't want to eliminate the little guys! I am (ok, was) a little guy. I also don't want to eliminate the 285 either. I think it is important to have both.

I think it just takes a change in mindset. If we look at eliminating a specific weight, then it becomes an emotional argument, because we all "belonged" to one weight when we wrestled. Really what we want to do is disburse weights to where they fit the bodies of kids we get. I understand that one conference might have no kids at 138 (that happened this year) and a ton of kids at 106. If we used actual data from what kids bodyfatted to, we could determine what the weights are.

That data exists. We've got years of bodyfat data sitting on trackwrestling servers right now. I'd say that 7 years of data is plenty to determine where kids fall.

Kids would have to find a different weight. That's all. They wouldn't be eliminated. Maybe that weight would be a little above or below what it was before, but it would be there.

[1Iota]

Using the college weights plus a 115 would greatly improve the sport in my mind.  The best interest of the sport overall has to be put above any individual wrestlers.  I agree that some of our lightest wrestlers might be affected and it will not be perfect for everyone.

I would have no growth allowance.

I would have a rule that you have to wrestle 75% of your matches on the season at the weight you wish to compete at for the state tournament series.  If you want to cut then you cut all year long!

I would have every weight class reduced by 10 lbs for different JV weight classes.

I believe that 99% of wrestlers would be at a weight to compete in by the time they are junior and seniors.  Some of our smallest kids might be too small as freshman but that does not mean they cannot wrestle.  Very few freshman can compete at 157 on a varsity level so it is not a travesty in my mind if some freshman are too small to compete at 115 as a freshman.  Look at what some of the 106 lbers competed at this weekend at the Dells.

I know we have some small kids that will be affected by not having a weight class under 110 lbs but the positives for the sport have to outweigh those interests.  The new weight classes (college) will also make it difficult for some of those 215 lbers that will now have to wrestle 285 lbers.

Compromise-  make the dual season 11 weight classes and keep the individual state tournament the same to allow more kids to compete.  Helps the individuals plus the teams.

All you have to do is looks t at this years state tournament & know that it is inane to consider starting at 115.  The 106lb weight class was loaded with Jrs & A few seniors.  I would also challenge anybody to tell me that the quality of wrestling at the higher weights is equal to the lower weights.  If you are going to reduce, eliminate 220 & 195.  It seems as though every school, even the large schools are scrambling to fill the higher weights.  Every single kid in both the 113lb & 106lb bracket in D-1 were very experienced wrestlers that have dedicated themselves to this sport.  Can you say the same thing about 195 through 285?

[Barou]

Using the college weights plus a 115 would greatly improve the sport in my mind.  The best interest of the sport overall has to be put above any individual wrestlers.  I agree that some of our lightest wrestlers might be affected and it will not be perfect for everyone.

I would have no growth allowance.

I would have a rule that you have to wrestle 75% of your matches on the season at the weight you wish to compete at for the state tournament series.  If you want to cut then you cut all year long!

I would have every weight class reduced by 10 lbs for different JV weight classes.

I believe that 99% of wrestlers would be at a weight to compete in by the time they are junior and seniors.  Some of our smallest kids might be too small as freshman but that does not mean they cannot wrestle.  Very few freshman can compete at 157 on a varsity level so it is not a travesty in my mind if some freshman are too small to compete at 115 as a freshman.  Look at what some of the 106 lbers competed at this weekend at the Dells.

I know we have some small kids that will be affected by not having a weight class under 110 lbs but the positives for the sport have to outweigh those interests.  The new weight classes (college) will also make it difficult for some of those 215 lbers that will now have to wrestle 285 lbers.

Compromise-  make the dual season 11 weight classes and keep the individual state tournament the same to allow more kids to compete.  Helps the individuals plus the teams.

I'm right there with you Doc except I like the little guys.  I really think if we went 105, 115, college weights we would be good.  Correct me if I'm wrong but "back in the day" when we had 12 weight classes we didn't seem to have quite the issues in filling line-ups, correct?

[Jzelinski]

JZ,

Can I call you JZ?  

You know I don't want to eliminate the little guys! I am (ok, was) a little guy. I also don't want to eliminate the 285 either. I think it is important to have both.

I think it just takes a change in mindset. If we look at eliminating a specific weight, then it becomes an emotional argument, because we all "belonged" to one weight when we wrestled. Really what we want to do is disburse weights to where they fit the bodies of kids we get. I understand that one conference might have no kids at 138 (that happened this year) and a ton of kids at 106. If we used actual data from what kids bodyfatted to, we could determine what the weights are.

That data exists. We've got years of bodyfat data sitting on trackwrestling servers right now. I'd say that 7 years of data is plenty to determine where kids fall.

Kids would have to find a different weight. That's all. They wouldn't be eliminated. Maybe that weight would be a little above or below what it was before, but it would be there.

You know you can!

The problem is anytime weights are taken away it usually is at the bottom or the top. You can this by some of the ideas proposed on here, like starting at 115? That is insane! The only way I can get behind removing any weights would be to go back to 13 weights and spread the middle more, 140, 145, 152, and adjust the others by 1 or 2 pounds to evenly distribute the weight differences. We do NOT need to go to 10 weights! We would be missing out on some awesome wrestling  if we go down to 10 or 12 weights. JMO

[DocWrestling]

at 25 wrestlers average, it is actually impossible to field a varsity and a JV team.  The great majority of that national growth in wrestling is outside of the Midwest.

What other sport has averages that do not support even having a JV team.

You want to pay coaches more which I can certainly get behind but many programs have cut the number of paid coaches.  Why?  Because you don't even need a JV coach as there are not enough kids to even have a JV team.  

At the very least I think you will find very few programs with more than 2 paid coaches by the district.  Others are supported by the booster clubs.

That is mostly due to budget cuts and not even necessarily numbers.

I would just rather see full varsity rosters, full JV rosters so JV actually looked like varsity with duals and weight classes at tournaments, and then actually have freshman teams (maybe include at least 8th graders if not 7th graders).  Shouldn't D1 teams be able to at least field a varsity, jv, and freshman team?  That likelihood goes way up if we only had 10 or 11 weights.

With reduced weights you have more teams which means more need for paid coaches.

The problem with the lighter weight classes is we cannot wrestle down to fill the spots but we can wrestle up.

[DocWrestling]

I really do think that if you said that next year we would have 2 divisions, one with 11 weight classes and one with 14 weight classes and coaches get to decide which one they want to compete in that the overwhelming majority of coaches would choose the 11 weight class division when put on the spot.

The WWCA should poll every coach and publish those results.

[ramjet]

Ghetto,
Once again a very well crafted and thought out post, just like every year at this time. But once again I 100% disagree with you on cutting kids out of wrestling just so we don't have a FF. (who cares)
What does 14 weight classes get us?
1. Different kids opportunity's in the sport (more sizes and shapes)
2. Less weight cutting
3. Bigger wrestling rooms
4. Support from other coaches (football)
5. Small kids that might not excel in other sports can excel in wrestling
I can tell you as a father of a future 195 or 220 pounder I don't want to see either cut, and as a friend of a bunch of kids that may wrestle around 105 I Don't want to see that cut either. Two weeks ago would any of us wanted to see a state championship night with out the Koontz twins or Raschka or Stokke? With out 220 weight class Stokke who most consider one of the top 5 pound for pound kids in the state is home getting ready to play football for the Badgers instead of inspiring a ton of future athletic big kids to wrestle.
So I did a fact check to add to this bad debate topic.
Year              #of high school wrestlers               # of schools with wrestling
1970                 226,681                                       6870
1984                 248,328                                       8273
1990                 233,856                                       8416
1995                 216,453                                       8677
2000                 239,845                                       9046
2005                 243,009                                       9562
2010                 272,890                                     10,362  
2014                 284,114                                     10,688    this is the last year of the most updated data
From 1980 - 2000 we averaged 26.5 wrestlers per team, and now with the addition of 2500 more teams we have averaged 25 wrestlers per team for the past 15 years.  "Not Bad"
We need to pay coaches (in all sports) way better then we currently do in this state and hold them accountable to getting more kids out for sports. We are loosing kids to Xbox and childhood obesity so recruiting is vital.
I have a great idea bonus or cut bonuses on the WIAA leaders and have them create plans to get more kids out, the WIAA executive team ALONE is being paid 13%. I can tell you that's unheard of in business, as an owner of a mid to large company I run my entire executive team and back office support at 6-7% just like most well ran company's. Lets give some back to the guys and gal's in the field coaching our kids, inspired coaches create inspired kids.

Are these early season or end of season numbers?

[DocWrestling]

"Are these early season or end of season numbers?"


LOL! That does matter in wrestling doesn't it.  I got a chuckle last week from a couple freshman football players that were recruited to go out for wrestling for the first time this year.  I asked them how they enjoyed the season.  They enjoyed the season and one of their main comments was they could not believe how many kids quit over the course of the season?   That did not happen on the football team.  I am guessing hese guys were used to the hard work of football and understood being committed to the team so that was nothing new to them.  Not all the other first year wrestlers as well as some experienced wrestlers made it to the end.

[Handles II]

1st time caller, long-time listener, great topic, love the show!

I was pondering this over the weekend while on a long drive. I hadn't seen Ghetto's annual report yet, but was thinking of discussion topics for my upcoming banquet. Looking at our varsity numbers (14) vs other sports like football/basketball. One very interesting and important concepts to understand about wrestling is that your best wrestlers are capped at 6 points maximum for the team (in a dual). If they obtain 6 points, they must sit on the bench and another wrestler is put out to try to gain points.
Can you imagine if in basketball players were capped at say 8 points, then they are out of the game and a new kid has to come in? Wow, that would drastically change how the game would be played, as well as how soon guys were moved up to the varsity level, or left down to improve their skills at the JV level.
On my young but improving squad, we suffered 4 season-ending injuries to my (using Ghetto's terms) "varsity" guys. Since my "studs" (using that term loosely) can only be used once, and I have 14 weights to "fill" the question is who do I fill that with, or do I at all? Forfeits look bad (and they must be documented in my annual report to the School Board, as this will be yet another year with hundreds of thousands of dollars in cuts, that looks bad in comparison to basketball or hockey that only need 5 or 6 players on the court/ice).

In our make-believe basketball setting, I would imagine that increasing the number of player-positions on the floor to 6, or 7, would actually be harmful for the sport. Most high school BB teams only have 1 or 2 "studs". If those guys were capped at 8 points and then had to come off the floor it would mean putting more guys who aren't ready to contribute at that level out there. While some (as in wrestling) may rise to the challenge, others would most certainly wilt and end their career.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that because our "studs" can only do so much to help the team effort, is having more weights helping or hurting our wrestlers, wrestling, and the perception of the sport to those who control the money?

Great point Doc about the changes in numbers coming nationally. It's great that the sport is growing in areas where it was almost non-existent previously (texas, arkansas, etc) but do we know if those numbers mean solid teams across their states that are able to fill all weights + JV?

[Ghetto]

I have never wanted to cut kids out of wrestling.

I agree that this is a sport for all shapes and sizes. I would never have walked into the wrestling room as a 90 pound freshman if there wouldn't have been the 98 pound weight class. I do not want to raise the lower limit from 106.

I do not see the weight cutting that was done in the past, so I'm not sure that the majority of kids will cut. Some will, yes. But with the 7% in place, some simply could not do it. Cheating the bodyfat test is an issue that needs to be addressed, if kids are cutting to dangerous weights. And I believe it is happening, but that's another thread.

14 weight classes does not insure larger teams. In fact the opposite is true according to the data. I don't think they directly correlate, but you could go there if you were uninformed. I'd say a lot of administrators are, and if they are looking at straight data, they'd only see dropping numbers.

I would bet if we polled the football coaches from this state, a large majority would have no idea how many weights there are. You do bring up a great point though. Why not have the WWCA poll the football coaches and ask them what they think about wrestling? Why aren't their kids wrestling? What could we do to make it more appealing to them as coaches?

Again, "cutting" a weight class is not going to cut kids. Do we really think that Raschka and Stokke wouldn't have been at state, no matter what?

Yes we have higher participation nation wide. I think that is great. You have to remember though that entire states didn't have wrestling until recently. I'm glad they now do.

But I look at this state, and I see what I see. I see smaller teams. I see less teams.

I have met very few coaches who don't work hard to get their numbers up.

I think it's a good debate, BTW.  

[ramjet]

Dual meet FF hurt the sport and it takes away from the team aspect of the sport. It makes our sort loom pathetic giving points for doing NOTHING hurts our sport.

Close the gap for dual meets by making them a 11 man/team events.

Increase the matches if you need by wrestling JV matches or exhibition.

The 14 weight classes can be maintained for tournaments even the State tournaments.
But for those week day conference dual meets it makes sense to reduce the numbers.
The dual meets will become more competitive by eliminating the potential points via FF.
This will draw larger crowds and increase the following and competition.
It will make the team aspect more important and the Indivdual aspect more meaningful during those teams duals.

Let's face it the majority of the teams in this State are FF matches during dual meets. You cannot deny it.

Tell me what other sport awards points for showing up?

Get this sport back make it more exciting and competitive.

FF also should NOT be counted on any record ever.

[Oldtimer]

College has 10 weight classes starting at 125 and goes to 285.  There is no 106, 113, 120 or 220.  There's 4 weight classes right there that account for 14 vs 10.  However, in high school there are numbers in the 106, 113, 120 and 220 weights that are extremely competitive.  Not a lot of 195 pounders can handle the strength/size difference up to 285 so I'd leave the 220 in there.  I wouldn't touch the light weights either.

I base this entirely on statistics and fact  but my biggest beef isn't that we have forfeits with the small schools.  It's the reward to the team that fields the wrestler.  An unearned 6 pt team victory is ridiculous.  I don't have a solution but this is where I see the problem more so than how many weight classes we have.  Wrestle what we have, take away the big bonus points for forfeits and maybe we don't have a problem.

[Handles II]

Taking away bonus points for FF greatly changes the coaching strategies that are in place. I'd much prefer that all teams could fill all weights, but I still think there is a legitimate argument for keeping FF points no matter how many my team gives up.

But looking at the numbers, if only 60% of teams can fill 12 weights or more, then # of weights needs to be looked at. Even the reduction of one, back to 13 could be quite helpful for many teams. College weights plus 105 ish, 115 ish, 215 ish. Consistancy with our college weights would be imo a positive.

[BDbacker]

The problem as I see it is not necessarily that teams are having trouble filling all 14 weight classes. Instead I view the problem as there are fewer and fewer kids willing to work hard and wrestle. As part of a youth program that feeds into a very respectable program here in south central Wisconsin I can tell you that the program numbers for k-2 are high, they dip a little for the 3-5, and then fall exponentially for 6-8. The actual numbers of kids that matriculate to the high school program pales in comparison to the number from the same class that started when they were k-2. Why is that?

A simple answer is that wrestling is hard and parents these days won't make their little snowflakes do anything that is uncomfortable for them.

So many here think that eliminating weight classes will help solve this problem. Doesn't that simply equate to the solution provided by helicopter mommies and daddies that don't want little Johnny to work hard or lose and cry? What we need is a change in the culture. Embrace the fact that this is a hard sport. Celebrate it. Get moms and dads on board. Keep them on board. Destroy all video gaming systems...(sorry I was on a roll). Selling parents really falls on youth programs and the people involved therewith.

I must confess that I want this opportunity for all kids. The more the merrier. I want kids to work hard again in this country. I want kids to respect what hard work gives them in return. But those kids won't come if we aren't looking for them and why would we look for them if we don't need them because now we can fill our roster because we only need 12, 11, or even 10?

Bottom line is that this is a problem with our culture not our numbers! Let's change the culture.