Team vs indivdual

[5799gb]

Anyone ever been to a dual or tournament and hear "what's he doing on the  bottom" or how about "get up get up get up"? Now why on earth would anyone with knowledge and experience with wrestling do that? They don't. They are smiling to themselves or ignoring it or moving so that it isn't right in their ear.

An individual can go to just about any other sporting event and never sound so ignorant because of all their previous exposure to it. They have been watching them on tv or listening to family members and coworkers, attending professional events with friends. The majority of our population knows more about Bruce Jenner than wrestling. How many people attend individual state this weekend without having a direct connection to the event in either the past or present? I suspect the number is low.

 To those of you that think it's all about the individual champ, that somehow our "passions" future rests in the hands of promoting an individuals accomplishments, you are very wrong. We will continue to die.
 
 How do Coleman,Ellsworth and Rapids come up with these good teams time after time? Do half of their community's come to the kohl center to watch a couple of individuals wrestle at state? Not likely, but team state is entirely different. Everyone their will be on the edge of their seats 14 times per dual. That type
of promotion is priceless and can only be replicated at a dual with the rival school nearby.

 IMO the only way to expand our wrestling numbers is to promote the team. Not everyone is capable of earning a spot at in divdual state but they do have a spot on a team. There cant be many schools with the ability to turn kids away because of high enrollment right? There are schools in WI that have increasing numbers in the room. How can that be? All we read about is the opposite ,but it's true. That kind of success has not been the result of promoting or promising an individual championship. It has come from promoting participation by coaches, teachers and those in their community with the same passion we have. It would be a pretty hard sell without others in the room. It's like the "field of dreams" if you build it they will come "championships".


 To those involved in our youth programs, we have to protect the kids we have out. The studs and naturals are going to excell period. What we have to worry about with them is burn out, right. Does holding them back from wrestling to their full potential prior to high school really hurt them? Shouldn't we want them always hungry
for more? Is this part of the reason college coaches want multi sport athletes? Their recruit Is only now choosing to concentrate on his passion full time. I know of parents not letting their boys participate in youth state until 7th grade and it has worked out really well. The kids that don't excel are just as important. We need them in the room, hopefully identifying themselves as a wrestler. We have to keep in mind that the difference between wrestling and other sports is that "it is not a game" and that makes it difficult for youth to enjoy. Bad experiences in youth wrestling are killers. I would rather have a child learn slow, have fun and still be around in middle school then win youth state and every weekend during high school be ice fishing. Ice fishing is better when you are old and can talk about the glory days. Few of the life lessons learned from wrestling are realized at 10yrs. Except the negative ones.

 Obviously I had more to say than I thought but I wish some people on here would wake up. If we are trying to expand our numbers, promoting individual state over team state is the wrong approach. It eliminates to many people. Promoting wrestling as a team sport Will increase numbers. I don't believe any of the wrestlers i have been around that won a team title would say their individual title was worth more.

 Do they chant USA at international events?

[Bigfellow]

 +1

[ramjet]

What other High School sport has 14 slots to fill for starters?

11-football

Except the 8-man football think about that

Why are we and the WIAA so blind to the participation issue?

D3 want to promote this as team sport cut it to 10 weight classes.
D3 Give options to go to 10 weight classes at the conference level.

[shouldvewrestled]

Numbers go down because you don't want to be a part of a team? Pretty selfish of wrestlers if this is the case. I'm the best my coach should only care about me attitude?

Specialization of sports is hurting numbers not a team philosophy in wrestling. Numbers are hurting across communities in sports other than just wrestling too due to kids only playing 1 sport or 2 if we are lucky. Hard part is wrestling still to many isn't on the same level as football, baseball, and basketball in most communities. Go to your wrestling crazy towns where team atmosphere is pushed, numbers aren't down in most of those towns and they still seem to have plenty of individual success.

I have to agree with you on the second paragraph of your thought. Numbers are down in ALL sports and some of the smaller school really struggle at getting numbers in any giving sport.

Now to the first paragraph of your sentence, numbers do go down and casts a shadow when you have kids leaving one district to go soley to wrestle or play sports in another district. Sure the team they go to isnt going to hurt only help but the team they left is left without certain kids that I am sure the coaches were counting on to help build their respective programs.

Wouldnt you say that is it a ME first additude having kids open enroll to another district for just sports? And is it a team additude for that school to except those open enrolled when you have devolped kids for many years only to have their spot taken by an open enrolled kid for that sport?

The first part of my post was in reference to the original post saying numbers are going down because of team wrestling.  The only way numbers go down because a coach puts a team before indivduals is if there is that mindset of "they should put me first, I'm their best."  Then elite level kids quit and we don't see that as often as our average to below average kids hanging it up.  

As to open enrollment I would agree with your point.  Open enrollment promotes moving schools for athletics purposes whether people want to admit to it or not.  I would even say it will happen in sports such as wrestling more because we are getting closer to the "have's and have nots."  If I'm really good and have high aspirations for even after high school in wrestling, but live in a town where wrestling is not big, only 14 kids out total, do not get exposed to higher level competition.  Open enrolling is an enticing option and I think more and more kids will do it where they go to a team that can challenge them in the room daily and gets into tougher competition type tournaments.

I know the main kid you are talking about here personally and know their decision is a hot topic in our town.  By that I mean the town I live in and where he open enrolled out of.  It hurt our wrestling, football, even track if that is what he would have chose to do in the spring again.  Do I agree with it, as a fan of sports no.  Do I understand it, fully.

Back to the original question.  In my opinion to get away from the haves and have nots, team aspect has to be emphasized.  As shown on here many disagree with me.  If wrestling were huge in the town I live in currently, the kid in question would not have open enrolled I believe.  

[littleguy301]

you will never get a team aspect as long as it is acpetable for kids to move out of one district for sports alone. That is strictly an individual move and to say it is for a better team, well I have a hard time taking that one with out choking.

Do I get it, sure I do. Come out and say to the district your leaving it is about me. I would be fine with that.

Do I support that kid we talk about, yes I do. good kid, good family. But sorry I am not talking about just one kid I am talking about several. When you have one or 2 but when you have several sounds more like building a team by recruiting. Not all schools are on that playing field.

[Houndhead]

Just an interesting note. Of the 16 sectionals held on saturday, the highest scoring team in the individual sectional tournament was also the team representing that sectional at team state all but one sectional. Waterford was the high scoring team over Mukwanago in their sectional. Every other one was won by the same team going to team state.

[Ghetto]

What other High School sport has 14 slots to fill for starters?

11-football

Except the 8-man football think about that

Why are we and the WIAA so blind to the participation issue?

D3 want to promote this as team sport cut it to 10 weight classes.
D3 Give options to go to 10 weight classes at the conference level.

Don't worry Ram, I've got the data ready... I'll wait until after team state.

[shouldvewrestled]

you will never get a team aspect as long as it is acpetable for kids to move out of one district for sports alone. That is strictly an individual move and to say it is for a better team, well I have a hard time taking that one with out choking.

Do I get it, sure I do. Come out and say to the district your leaving it is about me. I would be fine with that.

Do I support that kid we talk about, yes I do. good kid, good family. But sorry I am not talking about just one kid I am talking about several. When you have one or 2 but when you have several sounds more like building a team by recruiting. Not all schools are on that playing field.

Wouldn't say never, teams are growing out in the Eastern part of the state pushing team atmosphere, and we currently allow open enrollment.

LG I agree with you it is bad for wrestling and sports in general. But you think a school is going to deny them in todays school economic picture? Unless they have in house reasons like overcrowding schools will take kids. WIAA or state have to police open enrollment more, get rid of it, or accept these situations will happen. Coaches do too and fight harder to keep these kids. It is an uphill battle with too many weight classes, other sports more popular, 1 sport athletes, video games, etc.  Thing is every town has these same battles and all you can do is keep doing your best to get kids out and keep them. Agree when best leave it's a sucker punch to the gut but if not against rules what are you supposed to do, cry about it or work with what you have? We lost our starting varsity CB when he left to wrestle, we were not happy but we coached up our other kids and made due and almost made the playoffs. He's still a great kid and want to see him do well, easier for me he wrestles for my hometown, but most here are over it and want to see him succeed to.

You can think they recruited all you want, it didn't happen that way unless multiple people have lied directly to my face.  

[Mack]

Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious.  Adding three points:

1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team.  Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either.  I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.  

2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there.  I've heard them say they prefer team state.  They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the  pride of their team, school and community.

3. This is a trick question.  There is no right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience.  Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.  

Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.

[shouldvewrestled]

Agreed no right answer as truly both are important but one philosophy leads to success in both areas, they other way can but is harder IMO.

We live in a current me me me sports world with sportscenter, fantasy sports, recruiting, even look at NFL combine which all about individual stats.

Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?

[MNbadger]

"Biggest thing is do we use that as excuses to push individualization or put in the work to make sure the team, your community, your friends matter just as much? Wrestling teaches many great individual values why can't it also teach teamwork and putting others before yourself?"

Are you going to vote for Bernie???

[Ghetto]

Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious.  Adding three points:

1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team.  Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either.  I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing. 

2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there.  I've heard them say they prefer team state.  They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the  pride of their team, school and community.

3. This is a trick question.  There is not right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience.  Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc. 

Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.

1. I see the same thing, and it's not a small high school that my kids will go to. 1000 kids should be able to field a few teams. They had a varsity girls team and would have to shuffle some varsity kids down to just field a reserve team. No JV, no freshman. I have some thoughts, but it's a rant for another day.

2. Individual state can be a lonely place if you are by yourself. We've qualified one kid 4 of the last 7 years. With the team, there's some security there. I don't think it is coincidence that we are more successful when we have multiple kids going.

[bigG]

Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious.  Adding three points:

1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team.  Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either.  I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing. 

2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there.  I've heard them say they prefer team state.  They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the  pride of their team, school and community.

3. This is a trick question.  There is not right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience.  Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc. 

Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.

Growing up in a school where we send 1-3 to ind. state but never rally had the chance as a team, I gotta say, I love the team aspect. It's the only chance many a work horse, who might not get much love on an ind. basis can be the hero of the day. better yet, the group can pleak; and have that day they'll talk about at their 50th class reunion.

[ramjet]

Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious.  Adding three points:

1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team.  Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either.  I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing. 

2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there.  I've heard them say they prefer team state.  They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the  pride of their team, school and community.

3. This is a trick question.  There is not right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience.  Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc. 

Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.

1. I see the same thing, and it's not a small high school that my kids will go to. 1000 kids should be able to field a few teams. They had a varsity girls team and would have to shuffle some varsity kids down to just field a reserve team. No JV, no freshman. I have some thoughts, but it's a rant for another day.

2. Individual state can be a lonely place if you are by yourself. We've qualified one kid 4 of the last 7 years. With the team, there's some security there. I don't think it is coincidence that we are more successful when we have multiple kids going.

I agree with #2 for sure my son went through that.

[bigoil]

Tried reading the whole thread, but skimmed some of it. Sorry, if this repetitious.  Adding three points:

1. My daughter almost couldn't play Freshman basketball this year, because the school had a hard time fielding a freshman team.  Almost half the games were canceled, because the other schools couldn't field freshman teams either.  I'm not sure it's JUST a wrestling thing.  

2. The wrestlers I know really like individual state, and they've been there.  I've heard them say they prefer team state.  They're crazy about having all hands on deck, and fighting for the  pride of their team, school and community.

3. This is a trick question.  There is no right answer, there are only the conclusions we draw from our unique experience.  Whether a person values team over individual state depends on the their personality, influence, program, school etc.  

Still...it's a good question, and the debate is enjoyable to read.

#1 team in NE Wisconsin girls basketball, Bayport, doesn't have a freshman team and probably 900 girls in the school. IMO you can thank club hoops 3-8th grade burning kids out and club volleyball stealing kids, specialization.