Youth State Qualifiers

[Handles II]

Weight cutting is a different issue completely. Start a new thread. I'll back you on that. But again you will get parents who say "I know what is best for my wrestler" just like on this thread. Parents making decisions on both fronts that they see as an advantage for their kid, not always "best" for their kid or the sport.

[madeyson]

Thanks knowgangs - very well put and agee with all of your comments, many have differing opinions and that is ok, but I like you get a little tiresome of the judging that is done - nobody knows my son like I do. My son is fortunate enough to be going on the Europe trip that you are organizing (and spending an AMAZING amount of time on) - what you are doing for the sport in Wisconsin is greatly appreciated!

[Handles II]

I think it comes down to a difference in philosophy.  First I'll preface this as saying you don't know me.  My son does not run from tough competition.  I will however, loudly voice my opinion in the defense of those whose actions or parenting is  being judged by others from hundred miles away behind a keyboard.  It seems there is an assumption that the 99% who travel are looking for a fast track to state.  I agree that there are those with those attentions however you made some rather broad statements. Never said 99%, I said most of those who go to a different regional. Most would indicated more than 50% are going to a different regional are doing it to avoid some other kids. I'll stand by that statement. And by seeing how spread out kids from the same club are, that would pretty much follow suit.

Another poster mentioned the kid who had no interest in wrestling, doesn't take practice seriously, etc. and has the parent who drives them all over hoping for trophies.  Yes I'm aware of a handful of parents like that.  However I don't feel as comfortable passing judgement on their intentions, motivations or even how their children will turn out as others do.  I also know many families with top notch wrestlers who have traveled for other reasons. Yes, of course some travel for other reasons. No biggie.

I know several parents who took their wrestler to different qualifiers as a youth because they struggled with a particular wrestler in their area.  I find it interesting that many of these same wrestlers are now extremely successful in high school.  I know state champs who traveled to a different youth qualifier.You are indicating that traveling to a different region creates successful wrestlers. There is zero evidence to show that is true or untrue. It's a moot point and can't be used to argue the benefits of running from one regional to another.

It's a bit hard to respond to all the topics you bring up in your post, but it seems you have some very strong opinions and frustrations with some aspects of youth wrestling.  Yes, I have frustrations with some aspects of youth wrestling. Most of which have been discussed ad nauseum by coaches and wrestlers who are far more accomplished than I. I listen and learn, and have brought up some of their main points.

You asked how can a parent build confidence by traveling to a different qualifier?  Here's my answer.  I've found that confidence or as some say heart, mental fortitude or whatever one's term is the most important ingredient to making a good wrestler.  You've expressed the opinion that if a parent takes them to a qualifier to avoid a particular wrestler it's horrible parenting.  I wonder if any of our nation's Olympic or World Team Members have picked a specific qualifying tournament to avoid a wrestler so they have a better shot of making the team?  I wonder why USA wrestling doesn't make them qualify by region instead of letting them select any qualifying tournament they want?   Does USA recognize that this allows our Olympic and World trials to be more competitive?   (No time to research that one, but interesting thought) The olympic qualifying system requires wrestlers from a given country (U.S.A) to place high enough at international tournaments to earn the country a spot in those olympics (some years we haven't qualified for a weight class, so could not compete at that weight). But the olympic trials is pretty much cut and dried. Cant run. In addition, those are adults making decisions for themselves. Not kids having decisions made for them.

From my experience taking kids all over the country to wrestle, the first couple trips the new kid is most often below average on the national level.  As they continue to travel with us, their confidence increases.  I soon see the same kid placing high in national tournaments and then returns to Wisconsin as a dominant wrestler.  It's not like they suddenly got stronger or acquired a vast amount of technique from repeatedly losing at national tournaments.  My belief is the change that occurred is their confidence increased.  That confidence grew because of the experience and opportunities they were provided.  Winning regionals and going to state for any child will boost their confidence. So you admit that losing isn't the end of a wrestlers ability to improve and gain confidence. Awesome. Then running from a kid to "gain confidence" isn't actually improving their confidence.

So if that little 8 year old kid has a fear of a certain wrestler, I say heck ya, drive 30 minutes to another qualifier and let them have a shot at making it to state.  Any parent who has had a youngster go to Wisconsin youth state it is a great experience for them. Great for the parent or great for the kid? We've got plenty of youth state place finishers and even champs that never wrestle in high school. How "great" was it for them?

Yes when they are in high school or college or hit adulthood, life's rules and responsibilities change but that isn't what we are talking about.  We are talking about youngsters.  I don't understand why some people get their singlet all bunched up over it and come across as so bitter about someone else's child.  As I read through the comments expressed here, I don't get a sense of any genuine compassion or concern, the comments come across as bitter and resentful.  Incorrect in my case. I'm 100% thinking of the good of the kid and the good of the sport. I have the fortune or misfortune of seeing how far too often our best prospects get turned off of wrestling because of the parent who "knows what's best for my kid" attitude. Helping wrestlers and wrestling is what I do and have done for over 20 years. I've made the same mistakes, or encouraged them that some parents are doing. I'm trying to correct that.

I'll address one of your other topics and that being the significance of elite clubs.  The reason I said that was it appeared you were out of touch with MN elite wrestling is by some of your comments.  Such as saying few of MN's better youth wrestlers are involved in elite clubs or saying MN Elite is not an elite club?  You described them as a "hybrid" club.  They are no different than Ringers.  Not sure why you don't consider them an elite club, but they are 100%.  I'm extremely familiar with their club.  Also you mentioned getting your information about MN Elite clubs from the Guillotine--didn't come across that you had first hand knowledge.  I apologize if I offended you by not knowing your background. I made a list from the guillotine because LG suggested there were many more, and more statewide clubs than what there really are. In ever said MN elite wasn't an "elite" club. I said they are a hybrid because their training mainly consists of  camps in house or at another location. It is generally supplimental. It is less like LAW for example where that is the primary or only club that a kid belongs to

When I mentioned WI D1 106 and that the majority of the wrestlers were heavily involved in elite clubs as youth, you responded "who identified in some way with some type of club at some point placed in h.s. state".  I think your repeated use of the word "some" was an attempt to minimize the significance of youth participation in elite club and how that influences high school success.  We personally know most of the kids in WI D1 106 bracket and I can tell you it wasn't "some" involvement as youth.  They were heavily involved in their elite clubs throughout their youth.  25% of the D1 106 bracket has gone on wrestling trips with my son--we know them well. My statement was statewide and all weight classes, not specific to one division and weight class. It is a true statement.

When I look at MN Div A 106 bracket I recognized about ⅓ of the names--either my son knows the kids personally, wrestled them or attended a camp with them.  Even the majority of their state kids at the same weight had a history of elite club involvement as youth.  My point is, it would appear that even in MN--participation in elite clubs as youth is a common denominator in high school success.  It's the same for IL and IA as well. Once again, MN clubs are almost exclusive to Metro area. Please don't dismiss the overwhelming majority of kids who are "home grown" and place or win state and go on to do great things in college. Attending a camp or clinic is not the same as exclusively wrestling for that elite club. In a non-club comparison (since some clubs do this very thing) JRob camps advertise how many state place winners they have. They don't indicate that many qualified or placed in state before coming to them (generally about 1/2 of all their campers have already qualified or placed in state), nor do they mention the thousands and thousands who never place or qualify. Nor do they mention that they have the camper for only 28 days, and the head/assistant coaches have them for 4 months each year (or more). This isn't a negative about JRob camps (I think they are VERY good for the right kid) but it is in a similar light to what you are saying about WI state wrestlers, that the club is what got them there, or you must be in a club to place at state and that is misguided advertising at best.

When my son first started at an elite club we had Advance and Ringers to choose from.  Now within nearly the same distance is Advance, Ringers, Higher Level, 2x Askren, Dominion, and Basement Brawlers and almost all offering year round higher level training.  Even traveling overseas, what used to be a government/state sponsored programs is now competing with private clubs.  This trend is not just our country.Yes, many people are buying what you are selling. It's becoming big big money. It's also hurting local clubs. It's pretty amazing to see from afar. Everyone seems to know what is best for their kid, until their kid hates it and quits. Then we never hear from them about what they should have done differently. I think that in my years on this forum, I've read about one parent who admitted all the traveling and clubs was bad for his son. The rest just stop coming on here, so we, and most importantly the youth parents who read this stuff, never hear that side of the story. Only the go.go.go.more.more.more.  Again, these aren't just MY opinions, but those of many high level coaches that I speak to on a regular basis and I'm sharing that advice.

I will conclude my thoughts by saying I can agree that we disagree and I'll end my further discussion on this topic.  I'm sure you are a great wrestling coach with a great program and many years of success.  I hope you continue to share your expertise and opinions with us. You would have to ask my wrestlers. They are the only ones whose opinion on that matters to me.

For those wondering.  We've been getting a lot of questions why my son did not participate this year in youth state.  He had a couple significant injuries the past 12 months and he decided that he wanted to skip youth state and instead prepare for our overseas trip to Europe.  In 5 days, he along with 16 other Wisconsin wrestlers will be participating in Europe's largest Greco tournament and a 3-country wrestling tour.   Good luck and safe travels!

If any dad's are needing someone to share in the excitement and nervousness of youth state, grab onto me--I'd be happy to share the moment with you.  

It's time to focus on youth state!  I wish all Wisconsin youth (even the ones with horrible parents who didn't go to the closest qualifier) a great weekend and hope that the many excited parents get a good nights sleep.  Fun times and great memories.


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[Handles II]

http://kjblack.blogspot.com/2015/03/a-letter-for-parents-from-perspective.html?spref=fb

Last paragraph is the most important. Parents (including me) should memorize it.