Youth State Qualifiers

littleguy301 · March 25, 2015, 07:38:16 AM

I have seen various reasons

1. the club/school wants to get as many as they can down to state.
2. kids are looking for different wrestlers for various reason.
3. it is usually the parents choice but kids do run
4. what is thought as maybe a "ligher" regional with less matches.
5. visit a relative and some schools did have spring break so maybe some traveling was in order.
6. sometimes kids do get drawn to a tough kid from another part of the state and wants that challenge.

Whatever the reason is fine with me, though I do have to admit that it needs to be reminded this is only youth wrestling and it is up to the people involved to make that decsion as to how much value you put on a youth regional or money is some cases.

Handles II · March 25, 2015, 10:28:33 AM

Checkout the NYWA brackets and rarely will you find any "clubs or schools" put down. They almost all put their hometown/H.S. as who they wrestle for.
And yes, in the cities there are some clubs, but again, most kids identify with their hometown. Outside of the metro area, there are very few wrestling schools. The large majority of wrestling talent stays and works with their home program, or on a few occasions attends open practices etc.

When people (meaning parents, not kids) that they join a school to get better competition, I sometimes wonder... If 5 kids (and thus 10 parents) bail out of each youth program isn't that actually removing "better competition" for the other kids in the program? Aren't you creating a situation of taking more water out of the well than you can drink? What if your kid joins a club for better competition, but those kids move to a different club for better competition? See the problem that parents create? Fewer kids in the youth program simply means less competition (and parental help and support) for everyone.

As for clubs "spreading out" to get more kids in, what's the point? Obviously that is parent and/or club organizer driven simply to spread their name around. If your kid can't beat another kid from the same club, why isn't that ok?
I get the visiting grandparents and such, but that certainly isn't what is happening with the masses. It's to try to avoid someone else. They can't do that in high school, and teaching kids that it is ok to avoid competition isn't a positive for the sport or the child.

Vipor · March 25, 2015, 11:32:05 AM

Thank You Knowgangs ,great post as always!

Handles II · March 25, 2015, 12:52:54 PM

No I didn't forget that 7th and 8th can wrestle for their schools. I'm quite aware as a founding member of the JHI Mafia. I was really talking about (though didn't clarify) the k-6 guys anyway so that it is a direct comparison.

It's not being anti club, it's being pro community/school based. It's about helping your club vs. ditching it. It's comparing what seems to be very much a growing thing in WI vs what seems to be a limited involvement in MN. It's not understanding the reasoning behind the parent mentality of avoiding wrestling someone better to qualify for state, but wanting to leave a school club for "better competition". It's about the mentality of teaching kids to avoid wrestling someone possibly better than them, yet in High school they will not get to do that. It's about the mentality of promoting a club over your hometown.

madeyson · March 25, 2015, 12:59:32 PM

If we are going to throw other states into the mix go take a look at Iowa, probably more private clubs then Wisconsin. I believe the private clubs in Wisconsin are helping elevate the sport. My son goes to a private club - and quite frankly I still have ALOT of effort to make our school program work, it's just not to where it needs to be to help my son accomplish his goals.

Vipor · March 25, 2015, 02:52:15 PM

If you look at the top placements at the Dells you will see several of the top kids from MN Elite ,Pinnacle ,and Central MN Wrestling Club. What local school from MN do they belong too? Also, many areas (schools) have cut funding for youth or middle school wrestling. Making clubs an only option.

Handles II · March 25, 2015, 05:05:14 PM

Yup, no experience with MN wrestling here.

Certainly not as much as going to a couple tournaments and camps.

missinghome · March 25, 2015, 08:16:52 PM

Handles, I think you mean well, I just think people don't quite understand your point. I agree with you when you say your not teaching kids anything about how to win when you take them across the state. I also don't buy most of the reasons people give. Bottom line is they can't beat someone in their area so they go someone else. We used to book little family trips around wrestling as well. We called them national tournaments. LOL My policy was always "if you can't beat the kids at your local regional I am not going to give you false hope by running somewhere else.

Handles II · March 25, 2015, 09:50:40 PM

Missinghome, you've got it nailed. Congratulations on actually teaching your kids valuable information. I'm all for going to far away tournaments as high school teams sometimes do. I'm all for family trips and letting grandma see the kids wrestle. I'm all for clinics and going to open mats to wrestle some new kids. I'm also great with kids losing to another good kid in their town/club and learning from that. I'm great with the idea that not everyone from a club or team will, or should make it to state. I'm awesome with wrestle-offs and the things that can be learned from winning or losing to a teammate.

What I don't get is this desire of adults, not kids, to figure out how, and where, to travel to potentially get a state YOUTH qualification because they can't beat their neighbor. That is 100% ADULT driven. Kids don't think or worry about such things.

Additionally this thought process of some parents that "if I take my kid away from their local club, that will be beneficial for my kid and the club and the sport". It's only "my kid" and nothing else. There is NO other benefit.

I understand, these wrestling "schools" rarely host tournaments so there is far less work to do, some don't do fundraisers, they need very limited parent involvement other than to write out a check and to make sure to list that club's name on the tournament registration. It does make it easy for some parents vs. the work needed to build/maintain a youth and high school program. And we wonder why high schools are having trouble filling rosters? Perhaps if parents didn't explain to their kids that the head coach isn't good enough that might help?

The parents may feel like they are doing the best for their child, that they know what is best. But is it? Is that what THEIR parents did for them? Did THEIR parents pull them away from their community and friends and tell them to identify with some other group? Did their parents tell they can't win against this kid, so we will drive and find you someone you can beat? Did THEIR parents tell them that the coaches/kids in their school/club/district are not good enough so you must go elsewhere ? Did THEIR parents say you need better competition at eight years old so we will drive 3 hours away?

Is that what they would have wanted THEIR parents to do to them?

I highly doubt it.

So what I don't understand, is why, in WI (and not only WI) is it so? To what end is this important? Yes, I see that wrestlers who identified in some way with some type of club at some point placed in h.s. state. So that must mean that their high school coaches, their practice partners, their teachers and friends who supported them when they wanted to quit the sport due to parent pressure all meant nothing. It was simply their involvement in a wrestling school when they were grade 3-6 that make them the man they are today. And that 4th place finisher in H.S. state. What does that get him, other than a sour taste in his mouth that he wasn't 3rd? Will it get him a great job and family over the kid who doesn't qualify?

And if a kid who places at youth state, but never even wrestles in high school because he is so burnt out on hour drives just to practice when he could be doing so with his school buddies, or doing his homework, what do his parents say? Where are they on this forum? Oh, they aren't on here, they were once when they knew everything, but not EVER AGAIN. They never admit that they were NOT doing what was best for their child, school, wrestling program even though they probably defended their actions previous to him quitting. They just disappear as does their phenom child. You ALL know that kid. You ALL know those parents. You, right now might be saying "it won't happen to my kid"... just as they did.

I'm into high school and college wrestling. To pretend that youth is where it is at, is like saying little league is the most important point in a baseball player's career, and being quarterback on the flag football team makes you special. It isn't even a mosquito bite on an elephant's butt.

MN has traditionally seen success over WI kids in this sport, be that in H.S. NJCAA, D3, D2,D1. Don't deny it. And most of those are NOT raised in some wrestling school, but rather in their local youth program. Sure, there are examples of the reverse, but it isn't the norm. Statewide, there are not many wrestling schools in MN (almost all are located in the cities), and even fewer kids and parents who "identify" with those programs at the exclusion of their own local club/schools.

And yeah, i've got MN and WI and IA head and assistant coaching experience, youth-College. Head coach in MN for 8 years, Section Coach of the Year honors as voted by my peers. So I trump your few tournaments and camps. I've been a paid clinician at more camps than your kids have ever attended. I've worked side-by-side, stayed in dorm rooms with, more AA's, college coaches, and olympians than some of you have seen on video. This isn't bragging, it's fact. I'm not even close the best wrestler or coach out there, nor will I ever be or pretend to be. I try to learn as much as I can from those who know the sport better than I do. I've picked their brains late at night as to what we do great and what we need to fix, and how I can help improve my wrestlers. Those who know me on the forum at least respect my coaching experience (though not always my political views, HI RAMJET!).

Guess what some of the very most common complaints are from H.S. and college coaches about youth wrestling? List three and I'll bet you get two of them right. Here's a hint, most never, ever, have a negative word about the H.S coaches where they get their recruits from, be it a big-time program, or a podunk town.

Ready to answer? Go.

littleguy301 · March 25, 2015, 10:25:56 PM

I would like to say the MN has more wrestling "clubs" than Wisconsin does. They are all over. Like someone said take a look at the Dells tournament or other youth style tournaments. I see alot of names from MN. I think when some of the wrestlers travel out of state they use the clubs name and while they are in state they use their schools names. For the most part many schools do not set up national or regional tournaments due to the coaches have limits on contact with their wrestlers hence clubs come into effect because their are no restrictions there what so ever.

So if your doing off season wrestling your probably doing it with a club though there are schools that have volunteers that offer that also, I know Ellsworth, Kaukana and Rapids do. In MN I see Apple Valley, St Micheals and Bemiji doing so amoung other schools just to name a few from wisco and MN.

I agree alot of it is parent driven about traveling but the WWf is NOT the WIAA and putting limits on it so if people want to travel then who is there to stop them.

In my area the next closest is at least 2 hours away and since I have one 20 minutes away then I am going there. I go there because it is a good tournament so no reason to leave there and plus it is close so that is enough for me to continue to go there. I dont put alot into what so and so does in youth though the effort and development is needed but getting to state shouldnt be the top goal. If you put in the effort and developement score some points getting there could be on the radar which is fine. Though I see on the eastern part of the state you could run into which one is closer and looks like the same in the SW part also. In my area dont have that problem.

Now if the regional I go to was run poorly or I had some issues with the people I may look to another place which I have heard from people over the years but thankfully the one I go to is well reffed, well run and they give me NO reason to leave so why should I go.

Once again, it is how much you value getting to state, how much money you put into or want to put into it will run the course of where kids and parents go.

Now I have a question, if you have 2 awesome kids from your club and school at the same weight, why not have 1 of them move up a weight class. The classes in youth are only 3-5 pounds different until you get into the bigger kids and then you get into the 10 pound or so difference. So I dont see the problem of moving up a class.

I get that the kids dont want to wrestle their friends from the same club/school. I say look at weight classes above or below it.

foose4 · March 25, 2015, 10:38:35 PM

What about if I really don't care or even more importantly don't want my son to wrestle in college. For me college is getting you ready for the next step of your life and getting physically broke down might not be for everyone. If it's for your son/daughter great. But I bet there are kids that wrestle in college for the same reason as youth.....because parents want them too.

Why do we need to worry about everyone else? Do what you feel is right. You're the parents. There are lots of decisions to be made raising a kid. I'm not going to sweat over what I decided to do for wrestling. Other things are important also. None of us do everything right. But we try to get the most right we can.

wrestlinglife1 · March 25, 2015, 11:10:23 PM

Handles, i understand a portion of your argument and what you are trying to say. What i am having trouble with its you keep referring to kids leaving their home club. Where is this happening? Because kids pick up a day or 2 of extra training with a club, certainly doesn't mean they leave the school team. Am i misunderstanding you?
I do have to disagree on the MN deal. I was at the Super 32. Those kids were listed as MN Elite or PINnacle. Rarely a local team listed unless it's Apple Valley which is a bigger Elite Club anyways.

Handles II · March 26, 2015, 07:52:32 AM

LG:
Here is the list of non-school related youth wrestling clubs in MN from the guillotine all are in the metro area:

Cobber Club (Moorhead)
Eastside Wrestling (St.Paul)
Hi Flyers (Minnetonka)
Pinnacle (Shoreview)
Minnesota Storm

All other clubs listed are the names of the direct school related feeder program like Lumberjacks wrestling (Bemidji).

MN Elite isn't a wrestling school per se, they provide wrestling camps and clinics, sometimes in-house, sometimes traveling. It's a hybrid.

wrestlinglife1, I know of this happening quite a bit in WI. Parents have their kids join a wrestling school and they don't participate with their local program. And as we see at state registrations, it is the trend to not identify with your program, but the wrestling school you had your kid join.

But I digress, yes this thread was originally about people driving far and wide to get their kid to qualify for state because they can't beat the kids in their region. One poster said this is to build confidence in his wrestler. How does that work? "Johnny, you can't beat Tim or Joe from our region, so we will take you 100 miles away and maybe you can qualify for state there." Like Johnny doesn't know you are trying to get him easier competition? And that if he gets to state he will lose to Tim and Joe anyway? Kids aren't stupid.

missinghome · March 26, 2015, 08:59:10 AM

Handles, I'm with you on this, and back when my kids were in youth I would voice my opinion on this every year. I don't think you are trying to tell people what they can and can't do with there own kids, just questioning why. We had a kid in our club who's son was 6 and 22 this year. Not 22 and 6! He drove that kid 200 miles to a regional to try and get him to state. Needless to say he didn't make it. He didn't even make the first period. And there was a regional in his own city? This dad has done this every year. The kid is the laziest kid on the practice mat, is always mouthing off, and his dad has an excuse for every loss. I would love to know how anybody could possibly think this is helping him become a better wrestler! I will say it again, if there is 1000 kids that travel for regionals, maybe 10 are for the right reason. As for the "club thing" That is a catch 22. For sure most kids that are good go to clubs, but also remember most of the kids that go to clubs are the good wrestlers. How long do you think these clubs would last if your "high level" kid had a wrestling partner every night that was average at best?

TeamJ · March 26, 2015, 12:03:26 PM

Lets get this way of track--I have much less of an issue of driving to a different Regional then having your kid drop even 1#, let alone 5%-10% of your kids weight for the sake of winning.

Driving may have a few flimsy reasons...there is not one healthy reason for dropping weight.

Yes, 5-10% happens ALOT.