Wisconsin In-State Wrestling Talent - Chicken and the Egg Question?

[jaguarwrestler]

Dale, you are correct about the populations of PA, NY, and OH (all double or more than MN/WI).

But WI (5.7 M) actually has a higher population than MN (5.4 M).

I think MN's population being basically in one main area St. Paul/ Minneapolis plus their suburbs help create the hotbed of wrestling for MN.  Much bigger overall schools, more kids in the room at one time for practice partners helps them a great deal.  

WI has similar population numbers but is much more spread out.  Much more D2/D3 type schools, many do not get the same numbers in the wrestling rooms.  Many MN schools their practice matches everyday are harder than their competition matches.  Helps bring out the best and toughness in those kids.  (Not saying WI doesn't have schools like this or isn't tough, just a possible factor).

I know the Chicago area has some powerhouse wrestling teams, I'm not sure about the twin cities, if we look at Madison and Milwaukee schools we have very little team and individual success when just looking at city schools, I couldn't name the last state champion from a Madison school and your talking about a ton of kids in the system. Even if we look at Green Bay, how many champs from east, west, Preble, southwest in the last 10 years? Over 5000 total kids in those schools. Seems our highly populated areas have very little wrestling tradition

[Dale Einerson]

Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.

Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state.  Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors.  Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.

Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger.  Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.

I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.

I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time. 

I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers.  We are back to that winning begets winning thing.

I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state.  And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.

I do think there is something to JHI.  Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...

[Handles II]

FYI, the toughest combined Section in MN (based on state qualifiers/placing/champs tallied up by some math geeks on the guillotine) has been Section 1 on average (a few other sections slid in the top spot for a year or so) for over 20 years. That is the SE part of the state (Rochester area towards La Crosse and south to IA) with some very small schools (many with graduating classes of much less than 100). A couple big schools like STMA, Valley, Hastings in MN do certainly skew things vs. WI schools, but remember that in most of the big schools in MN, and even the medium schools, hockey completely dominates the sports scene like nothing WI wrestling has to compete with. MN has 5 D1 hockey schools just to help you understand the enormity of the sport here, not to mention UND right on the boarder. Most of the Mpls and St. Paul schools are very weak in wrestling, which equates to the Milwaukee schools. Coaches at the Winona Tournament this year all collected donations and bought wrestling shoes for the Mpls North wrestling team this year. We hated to see them wearing basketball shoes on the mat. We collected about 30 pair which hopefully will last the team for a while and get some kids to stay in, or join the sport.

There aren't any wrestling "schools" like Advance or Askren available to kids in that part of the state (Section 1), most are homegrown and coached by very "normal" coaches, nothing fancy. Not any better than WI has for coaches.
I won't say that any particular team or individual is better than a WI kid or team, that would be stupid. I think that on average though, North to South, East to West, Big or Small, MN does do a better job getting their kids to the college level than does WI. Personally I believe JHI is a factor that can't be dismissed.

Also as mentioned, more than 76% of Wisconsinites do not have a 4-year degree, that compares to MN at 67% who do not. Since WI has a higher population, that equates to fewer kids going to college (or at least earning a degree).  Kids can't become D1 AA's if they don't go to college. 9% more kids going to college certainly could equate to a few more AA's over the long haul.

[jaguarwrestler]

Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.

Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state.  Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors.  Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.

Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger.  Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.

I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.

I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time. 

I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers.  We are back to that winning begets winning thing.

I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state.  And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.

I do think there is something to JHI.  Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...

Dale, I wasn't talking about the area around the city, I was talking about the city... yes within a 20-30 mile radius you pick up some very good teams/individuals.  GB has 5000 kids in west, east, Preble and southwest and I can't remember more than 1 champ from those schools in the last 10 years... I don't recall any from Madsion east, west, memorial, la follette.... Lodi is 20 minutes away plenty of separation. Madison high schools have over 6000 kids, GB have around 5,000... and I have a hard time coming up with more than 1 champ from any of those schools in the last 10 years. 

[Dale Einerson]

Great inputs Handles, thank you.

I think the number of college graduates of 4 year programs is interesting, but, it doesn't deal specifically with the number of students entering 4 year programs per year, just an overall number of graduates in the state.  It doesn't deal with where those 4 year graduates graduated from...

But, I do think we are back to JHI.  If Jack Reinwand used to say, paraphrased, if we make team state every year for 4 years, that means my Seniors have another month of wrestling season over their 4 year career; that adds up.  Just use JHI and turn that into 6 months...kind of a big deal.  

My Freshman wrestled an 8th grader this year.  To think that 8th grader had a year more of Varsity experience than my Freshman...

[Dale Einerson]

Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.

Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state.  Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors.  Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.

Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger.  Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.

I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.

I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time. 

I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers.  We are back to that winning begets winning thing.

I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state.  And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.

I do think there is something to JHI.  Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...

Dale, I wasn't talking about the area around the city, I was talking about the city... yes within a 20-30 mile radius you pick up some very good teams/individuals.  GB has 5000 kids in west, east, Preble and southwest and I can't remember more than 1 champ from those schools in the last 10 years... I don't recall any from Madsion east, west, memorial, la follette.... Lodi is 20 minutes away plenty of separation. Madison high schools have over 6000 kids, GB have around 5,000... and I have a hard time coming up with more than 1 champ from any of those schools in the last 10 years. 

Fair enough, I think we see the same things, I just think we define the city parameters a little differently.  I remember, fondly, the 1-man rush of the floor by Papa Mireles after his son won state in D1.  Then, I ask myself, didn't that young wrestler transfer from East to DeForest?  Not sure...

I do think Middleton's and Verona's and Sun Prairie's and DeForest's champions would be viewed as Madison Area, if not Madison proper, by anybody in the Madison Area. And, we need to remember Monona Grove doesn't have a wrestling program. I always wondered why Edgewood didn't build a wrestling program of similar strength as their golf, basketball and football teams...Stoughton and Lodi might be 20 minutes out, but, since many/most of the parents work in the Madison Area, they probably see themselves as Madison Area.

I do think Bayport, Pulaski, and Ashwaubenon would view themselves as Green Bay Area, if not Green Bay proper.

I do recall a Heavyweight from a Milwaukee school that went off to Iowa Western after doing a backflip and the splits on the mat after winning state.  And, he had a team mate that won state that year...Bradford? What does it say about me that I remember the post-match celebration but not the name of the kid(s)?

I do recall Devin Peterson losing to a pretty formidable future Parkside wrestler, don't remember the name or school.

[jaguarwrestler]

Great inputs Handles, thank you.

I think the number of college graduates of 4 year programs is interesting, but, it doesn't deal specifically with the number of students entering 4 year programs per year, just an overall number of graduates in the state.  It doesn't deal with where those 4 year graduates graduated from...

But, I do think we are back to JHI.  If Jack Reinwand used to say, paraphrased, if we make team state every year for 4 years, that means my Seniors have another month of wrestling season over their 4 year career; that adds up.  Just use JHI and turn that into 6 months...kind of a big deal.  

My Freshman wrestled an 8th grader this year.  To think that 8th grader had a year more of Varsity experience than my Freshman...

I'm a big supporter of JHI and I believe that is a big reason MN is better than us in wrestling. Almost every wrestler gets better each year they are on varsity so adding another season or two will only make that much more of a difference. If your a top notch 8th grader you probably don't make it our of the first period of most of your matches, if you where to compete on varsity you would have your hands full most of the time... what scenario makes you better?

[MNbadger]

I don't want to belabor the point about population but...
Wisconsin actually has more large centers of population than Minnesota does.
(Dale, I think this was part of a topic on the old political board).

[jaguarwrestler]

Yet, if you took a map of Wisconsin and put pins in the teams and individuals ranked in the top few, you would find arguments that differ from the points you are making.

Kaukauna and Freedom are neighbors; if we have really short memories we won't add L-C and OF to the discussion regarding that part of the state.  Wausau West, Rapids and Merrill are conference foes and relative neighbors.  Bayport and Pulaski kind of put the final kink in the Green Bay Area competitiveness discussion; I remember not too many years ago Ashwaubenon marched out 3 at the top of the lineup that were pretty okay. I find it interesting that we are about to enter the "which Sectional will have the most state place winners" discussion time; the Green Bay Area will be arguing it has been or will be that area.

Milton, Stoughton and Lodi have had very strong Madison-Area programs; Sun Prairie not only had a multiple state champion, but multiple champions; one of them was good enough to become a Badger.  Sauk Prairie has become a very tough team to beat in recent years. Not too many years ago we saw a 3-team coop with 3 wrestlers at the very top of the heap from New Glarus and Belleville and some other town I am about to scolded about because I am old and I have a feeble memory.

I have 2 sons who lost in the finals in consecutive years, all to Milwaukee Area wrestlers....if you count Port, Germantown and Hartford as Milwaukee Area. Pewaukee has been a perennial power in D2; they seem to have made the leap to D1 quite well from a power perspective.

I think it is safe to say that there are many schools that have wrestling programs that have them doing well, most of the time.  

I don't believe Apple Valley is what most would consider to be an "inner city" high school; one of the reasons people in Minnesota love to cheer against Apple Valley is because they tend to get what most feel is more than their fair share of transfers.  We are back to that winning begets winning thing.

I also think the rise of strong wrestling clubs tends to shift the balance of power and results throughout the state.  And, this was true in Illinois and Minnesota as well.

I do think there is something to JHI.  Tom has been a supporter since 1997 after all...

Dale, I wasn't talking about the area around the city, I was talking about the city... yes within a 20-30 mile radius you pick up some very good teams/individuals.  GB has 5000 kids in west, east, Preble and southwest and I can't remember more than 1 champ from those schools in the last 10 years... I don't recall any from Madsion east, west, memorial, la follette.... Lodi is 20 minutes away plenty of separation. Madison high schools have over 6000 kids, GB have around 5,000... and I have a hard time coming up with more than 1 champ from any of those schools in the last 10 years.  

Fair enough, I think we see the same things, I just think we define the city parameters a little differently.  I remember, fondly, the 1-man rush of the floor by Papa Mireles after his son won state in D1.  Then, I ask myself, didn't that young wrestler transfer from East to DeForest?  Not sure...

I do think Middleton's and Verona's and Sun Prairie's and DeForest's champions would be viewed as Madison Area, if not Madison proper, by anybody in the Madison Area. And, we need to remember Monona Grove doesn't have a wrestling program. I always wondered why Edgewood didn't build a wrestling program of similar strength as their golf, basketball and football teams...Stoughton and Lodi might be 20 minutes out, but, since many/most of the parents work in the Madison Area, they probably see themselves as Madison Area.

I do think Bayport, Pulaski, and Ashwaubenon would view themselves as Green Bay Area, if not Green Bay proper.

I do recall a Heavyweight from a Milwaukee school that went off to Iowa Western after doing a backflip and the splits on the mat after winning state.  And, he had a team mate that won state that year...Bradford? What does it say about me that I remember the post-match celebration but not the name of the kid(s)?

I do recall Devin Peterson losing to a pretty formidable future Parkside wrestler, don't remember the name or school.

Yes in 2005 Mireles won a title for Deforest... I'm glad you where able to find 1... that transferred from a Madison school. Yes... Madison area, Green Bay area... but that does not change the fact that the 11,000 kids in those city school that they have maybe 1 or 2 champs in the last 10 years. A massive amount of kids with almost zero wrestling interest or history in those schools

[Dale Einerson]

I think we agree on the principle, I don't want to nitpick on the 1 or 2 comment, but it is bigger than that, concede that it is not by as much as we would think.  But you are definitely directionally accurate.

[jaguarwrestler]

Dale,

If we toss Seymour, Freedom, Ashwaubenon, Bay Port, Pulaski, Wrightstown, L-C, Oconto Falls all into the Green Bay area.... I bet combined they have slightly more enrollment than GB city schools yet have 25 times more state champs the last 10 years. If those city schools had the same level of wrestling as the outer layers of the city the state would be much stronger in the sport. Why is it with such a large talent pool they struggle so bad to build stronger teams? Is wresting only successful in smaller communities?

[jaguarwrestler]

Didn't realize Penn has about 10 D1 wrestling schools, it is no wonder they have so many AA's, almost every school is full of kids from the state. Put 10 D1 schools in WI and I guarantee out AA's shoot up big time.

[Handles II]

Really jags, you think so?
How would that help them qualify for D1 nationals and make it to the AA round? And if they could do that, why aren't they doing it at the UW or any other D1 school in higher numbers? We should at least be seeing many D2 and D3 national champs (which could potentially equate to D1 AA) from our in-state guys if the lack of D1 schools was the case, but we aren't. A few D2, D3 champs here and there, but certainly not enough to predict "AA's shoot up big time".

I don't think the lack of D1 colleges is what's holding our numbers down. Guys who want to be an AA bad enough can find a school willing to take them.

[jaguarwrestler]

Really jags, you think so?
How would that help them qualify for D1 nationals and make it to the AA round? And if they could do that, why aren't they doing it at the UW or any other D1 school in higher numbers? We should at least be seeing many D2 and D3 national champs (which could potentially equate to D1 AA) from our in-state guys if the lack of D1 schools was the case, but we aren't. A few D2, D3 champs here and there, but certainly not enough to predict "AA's shoot up big time".

I don't think the lack of D1 colleges is what's holding our numbers down. Guys who want to be an AA bad enough can find a school willing to take them.

well they have twice the population, so they should on average have at least twice as many AA's... they have 10 times more D1 schools, so that many more schools recruiting in state talent. The more guys you have wrestling for a D1 school the better odds you will have of getting an AA. I never tracked our D2 and D3 wrestlers... do you have that info?

think of it like this, that info posted early says we have had 82 AA's in 60 years, double our population should put us at 160... now give us 4 or 5 more D1 schools and they sprinkle in an additional 1 or 2 aa's a year we are at around 250 in that 60 year span... 4 times what we have...

[Hungus]

Lets toss the population argument out the window, Base on that logic, shouldn't California and New York be producing the most AA year after year?

One questions I might throw out there

Are all of Wisconsin's best wrestlers actually going to a D1 school where they have a chance to become a D1 AA?
Or are grades a factor?
Or maybe a 3 time state champ decides a 4 year D1 school is not for him and wants to go to a tech and become a welder.

I personally know of a 2 time champ and a 4 time place winner that had D1 offers and simply decided he did not want to go to college, started working right out of high school, He is now a journeyman electrician and very happy with his decision.
I think that kid would have made it to AA status if he had went to a D1

So many different factors play into these stats.