J Robinson talks about future of College Wrestling

Started by 1Iota, January 26, 2015, 10:43:23 AM

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MNbadger

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I am telling you, going to the dual for the championship will result in less attendance. 
We have already seen this having had the duals for some time. 
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

dman

Quote from: MNbadger on January 28, 2015, 10:35:55 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I am telling you, going to the dual for the championship will result in less attendance. 
We have already seen this having had the duals for some time. 


???  You claim there is less attendance already?

MNbadger

Yes, what draws more, the National duals or the National Tournament?
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

shouldvewrestled

#48
Quote from: MNbadger on January 29, 2015, 11:47:50 AM
Yes, what draws more, the National duals or the National Tournament?

Which one is promoted? Which one has national meaning? It's not an equal comparison like you say. Place national champs title with the duals attendance will increase. Won't take anything away from the individual championships. Each weight will still have their national champ. Can even give out a trophy for team score if they want, still say it's not a true "team" championship as your whole team doesn't even wrestle at it.

ChargerDad

Quote from: MNbadger on January 29, 2015, 11:47:50 AM
Yes, what draws more, the National duals or the National Tournament?

If the dual tournament was a legit national title, attendance would go up..  I would like to see a National Duals Champ, and a National Tourney Champ..

MNbadger

" still say it's not a true "team" championship as your whole team doesn't even wrestle at it."

Yes, they do.  They are eliminated earlier in qualifying.
I would be happy to have both as long as we have two champions, one for each tournament.
Even if the NCAA wants to have an officially sanctioned duals championship the individual tournament will still be better attended.
I'll make that bet with anyone that wants to wager.
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

shouldvewrestled

Quote from: MNbadger on January 29, 2015, 01:18:09 PM
" still say it's not a true "team" championship as your whole team doesn't even wrestle at it."

Yes, they do.  They are eliminated earlier in qualifying.
I would be happy to have both as long as we have two champions, one for each tournament.
Even if the NCAA wants to have an officially sanctioned duals championship the individual tournament will still be better attended.
I'll make that bet with anyone that wants to wager.

I wouldn't make that bet and agree the individual tournament would probably be better attended as more teams have at least 1 wrestler to follow. Still say the powers at be could find a way to make the final duals same weekend as the individual tournament and make the biggest weekend in college wrestling even better.

Huckfinn

Quote from: MNbadger on January 29, 2015, 01:18:09 PM
Even if the NCAA wants to have an officially sanctioned duals championship the individual tournament will still be better attended.

Maybe.  You keep repeating this irrelevant point.

What matters is that the individual tournament will continue to be compelling.   Attendance will not drop  one bit if the Dual Tournament determines the team championship.
And the gain is that the Dual Tournament will be attended by 100% of the ranked teams, well have a second great tournament to follow, and the sport of wrestling will be enhanced.

jaguarwrestler

Quote from: MNbadger on January 29, 2015, 01:18:09 PM
" still say it's not a true "team" championship as your whole team doesn't even wrestle at it."

Yes, they do.  They are eliminated earlier in qualifying.
I would be happy to have both as long as we have two champions, one for each tournament.
Even if the NCAA wants to have an officially sanctioned duals championship the individual tournament will still be better attended.
I'll make that bet with anyone that wants to wager.

the B1G with 12 teams last year had 74 auto qualifiers.... Pac 12 with 6 teams had 17, how do you believe that is fair? B1G gets 4 times the spots with only twice the teams... not a fair measure for team vs team. I say 3 to 4 B1G teams might get their entire team in this year. It is not fair at all, it is not an equal playing field. No one cares about the National Duals because it is a tournament with only some of the best teams and it does not crown a national champion. Outside of the usual top 4 teams, who really cares about the team championship at nationals? Team duals in WI and individual still both pull good crowds.
I am not in danger, I AM the danger!

Huckfinn

Quote from: jaguarwrestler on January 29, 2015, 02:04:48 PM
No one cares about the National Duals because it is a tournament with only some of the best teams and it does not crown a national champion. 

Right.   

I get tired of hearing all year long that the only thing that matters is the 3 days in March.    The coaches often rest wrestlers in the dual meets for strategic reasons.  The duals are like exhibitions.

By making dual tournaments crown the national champ, teams will start shaping their lineups to win dual meets.  That will be a subtle, positive change.    Everybody loves the march tournament, but having one event be the only competition that counts is not healthy for the sport.

If you have two national champions, then you really have none.     I guess I could accept two national championships if you waterboard me, but it really would be a more exciting experiment to elevate the national dual tournament to a premier event.  Take a risk, see if the change doesn't add interest to the wrestling year.   NCAA easily return to old system if the individual tournament suffers.   I really doubt that would be the case,   the tournament that determines individual NCAA champs will always be the big dance.

dman

Quote from: MNbadger on January 29, 2015, 01:18:09 PM
" still say it's not a true "team" championship as your whole team doesn't even wrestle at it."

Yes, they do.  They are eliminated earlier in qualifying.
I would be happy to have both as long as we have two champions, one for each tournament.
Even if the NCAA wants to have an officially sanctioned duals championship the individual tournament will still be better attended.
I'll make that bet with anyone that wants to wager.

Didn't you say attendance at the individual tournament would go down because of a dual national championship??

whatever

QuoteOutside of the usual top 4 teams, who really cares about the team championship at nationals?

...it seems the posters always arguing for a coaching change at UW seem to be concerned with team championships/placings......
"....the older I get, the better I was....."

jaguarwrestler

#57
Quote from: whatever on January 29, 2015, 04:26:37 PM
QuoteOutside of the usual top 4 teams, who really cares about the team championship at nationals?

...it seems the posters always arguing for a coaching change at UW seem to be concerned with team championships/placings......

yes you hope to be one of those teams, but when you never in the mix you lose interest in who takes the first 3 spots. I never cared if my team was 20th or 15th or 10th... I would care if they where 1st, 2nd or 3rd but if not in the running I don't care who wins since my horse is no longer in the race. Teams consistently outside the top 4 places focus on their individuals not on if their team goes from 15th pace to 13th place. Point is what percentage of the fans in the building care about the team race? Generally just the 2 or 3 teams fighting it out.
I am not in danger, I AM the danger!

1Iota

Quote from: Huckfinn on January 29, 2015, 02:49:50 PM
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on January 29, 2015, 02:04:48 PM
No one cares about the National Duals because it is a tournament with only some of the best teams and it does not crown a national champion. 

Right.   

I get tired of hearing all year long that the only thing that matters is the 3 days in March.    The coaches often rest wrestlers in the dual meets for strategic reasons.  The duals are like exhibitions.

By making dual tournaments crown the national champ, teams will start shaping their lineups to win dual meets.  That will be a subtle, positive change.    Everybody loves the march tournament, but having one event be the only competition that counts is not healthy for the sport.

If you have two national champions, then you really have none.     I guess I could accept two national championships if you waterboard me, but it really would be a more exciting experiment to elevate the national dual tournament to a premier event.  Take a risk, see if the change doesn't add interest to the wrestling year.   NCAA easily return to old system if the individual tournament suffers.   I really doubt that would be the case,   the tournament that determines individual NCAA champs will always be the big dance.


I think this is an excellent point & it also makes it much less likely that people outside of the cultish wrestling community will care. 

MNBadger doesn't want the dual format because then the championship won't be decided only by the top studs on a team.  But isn't that just another way of emphasizing the individual?  Having a championship team in any sport means having the fewest holes, or weak links.  If you're worried about you studs pin only counting as much as the opponents pin against a weak wrestler, fill that void.  A dual is generally going to be won by the most complete team, or the team that is strong at every weight.  A team championship should not be decided by  40% of the starting line up. 


npope

#59
Quote from: jaguarwrestler on January 29, 2015, 04:43:16 PM

yes you hope to be one of those teams, but when you never in the mix you lose interest in who takes the first 3 spots. I never cared if my team was 20th or 15th or 10th... I would care if they where 1st, 2nd or 3rd but if not in the running I don't care who wins since my horse is no longer in the race. Teams consistently outside the top 4 places focus on their individuals not on if their team goes from 15th pace to 13th place. Point is what percentage of the fans in the building care about the team race? Generally just the 2 or 3 teams fighting it out.

Part of what I am hearing there Jag is that nothing matters except winning. Now, I agree that that is indeed the mentality of much of the fan base, but I  think that is part of the problem. Being the "winner" has been elevated to such elite status in our culture that it undermines the values that we claim to prize, e.g., determination, tenacity, etc. Words are cheap. Instead, as a culture, we repeatedly reinforce that the only thing that matters is winning.

I think that is the bigger problem here. We tend to be fans of winners, not losers. We tend to care less about those who have tried and failed. We are a society of hypocrites; giving lip service to values and instead, really only valuing outcomes.

BTW, I think a dual championship series and individual championship series would be just fine...for true fans...and maybe fair weather fans, as well.
Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

Nat Pope