J Robinson talks about future of College Wrestling

[MNbadger]

"When Penn State ran-away with the team totals in recent years, the lack of a close team race didn't detract from the excitement of the tournament a bit."

It did for me!

Take the super bowl, unless the Packers are in it I have zero interest in watching it.  Yes, I know I am the minority but I think there are more people like me than you think.

[ChargerDad]

Why can't the NCAA sanction both??  Doesn't Pennsylvania crown both a High School team champ at the individual and a team dual champ?? 2 different types of team championships.  To me the real team champ comes from a dual format where you compete head to head against the other teams.

[shouldvewrestled]

Should've.... " Maybe it needs a team aspect for the Olympics to actually get the sport covered by the mainstream coverage? "

Doubtful, The biggest Olympic sports for fans are gymnastics, swimming, ice skating, and track (you could add skiing and speed skating here too). Though they have a team component, it is rarely mentioned.
The fans watch the individuals of these sports, not the teams.

Gymnastics the biggest part people watch is the team aspect not who later wins the individual gold on each apparatus. The others are individual sports who lucky for them people watch. Wrestling not so much. Let's just keep doing things the same way, numbers are increasing, forfeits are reducing and we are a hotbed of sports coverage.

[1Iota]

It seems as though some people don't have enough confidence in the appeal of our sport to believe it can support an individual & team Having a dual tournament to crown the team championship would not imo take away from the individual tournament at all.  The vast majority of fans at the individual tournament know going in that the team they support does not have a chance to win it all.  Last year you had Penn St & Iowa as the only teams with a real shot at winning, & those teams did not make up the majority of the fan base.  The current championship format is already primarily about the individual, & that is Robinson's point.  

It would be a lot easier to sell the fan base as a whole on supporting our sport if they had a team to support in a format that made sense.

[MNbadger]

"Gymnastics the biggest part people watch is the team aspect not who later wins the individual gold on each apparatus. The others are individual sports who lucky for them people watch"

I completely disagree.  Olga Korbut, Marylou Retton, Nadia Comenici..... nearly everyone knows what they did, not what teams won.
The interest in this is overwhelmingly on the individual aspect.

I would be fine with it if the NCAA would sanction a dual champ as well.  I am telling you if that were the case, the attendance would still be better at the individual tournament.

[shouldvewrestled]

"Gymnastics the biggest part people watch is the team aspect not who later wins the individual gold on each apparatus. The others are individual sports who lucky for them people watch"

I completely disagree.  Olga Korbut, Marylou Retton, Nadia Comenici..... nearly everyone knows what they did, not what teams won.
The interest in this is overwhelmingly on the individual aspect.

I would be fine with it if the NCAA would sanction a dual champ as well.  I am telling you if that were the case, the attendance would still be better at the individual tournament.

People may remember the individual names for records in history but in the moment they cheer harder for a team. I would also be fine with a dual champ and would be totally fine with the attendance being a little better for the individual part. If they could make the penultimate duals the same weekend it would be great so easier on fans.

[Huckfinn]

I would be fine with it if the NCAA would sanction a dual champ as well.  I am telling you if that were the case, the attendance would still be better at the individual tournament.

OK, fine.   It's not a zero sum game!   The interest in the dual tournament can be pumped-up without ruining the individual tournament highlight at very end.

As long as one or more of the power teams opts-out of the dual tournament, it will be a poorly attended non-event.   Allow the dual tournament to determine the team  national championship, then we have two exciting tournaments to close the year.

Look, the drama of the individual tournament are the individual weight brackets - who is gonna advance, is wrestler X gonna beat wrestler Y.     There is no chance that the individual tournament will be less than thrilling.

You are digging your heels in, resisting any significant change.    What would be wrong with trying an elevated duals tournament?  If the results are less satisfying, it is trivial to return to old system.

[Huckfinn]

The vast majority of fans at the individual tournament know going in that the team they support does not have a chance to win it all.  Last year you had Penn St & Iowa as the only teams with a real shot at winning,

Well said!

The team race at the individual tournament is an afterthought except for 2 or 3 teams.   I mean, I like to see the Badgers place well, but I could care less which of the elite teams amasses the most points in that complex scoring system.

A team beats another by wrestling them.   The "champion" of the tournament is very artificial.  Let it go to the dual tourney.

[ChargerDad]

Well, Iowa finished 4th and Minnesota was 4.5 outbof first, OK State placed third.. Iowa was over 30 points behind.. Really 3 teams had a chance and Iowa wasn't one of them.. Probably the same 4 teams at the top of a dual format event, and probably the same outcome last year, but that wouldn't be the case every year..

[MNbadger]

I would like to have two tournaments but to me the real champion is in the individual tournament.  It IS a team avent.
My biggest issue with duals is the poorest wrestler on the team can pin someone and your best wrestler can pin someone. The may in no way be equal in quality (in fact, most duals are won by your poorest wrestlers in reality).  There is little reward for being superior.  The bonus points a superior wrestler can amass in a tournament rewards them more for being superior.

I would love to see a team champion too but still want the individual tourney to be scored and count as a championship.

[Huckfinn]

I would like to have two tournaments but to me the real champion is in the individual tournament.  It IS a team avent.
My biggest issue with duals is the poorest wrestler on the team can pin someone and your best wrestler can pin someone. The may in no way be equal in quality (in fact, most duals are won by your poorest wrestlers in reality).  There is little reward for being superior.  The bonus points a superior wrestler can amass in a tournament rewards them more for being superior.

You do make some good points.   You ignore that there are bonus points in duels too.   And duels measure completeness.
Neither the tournament nor dual is a perfect measure of the best team.   

The intermat rankings are similar:

Duals
1   Minnesota   
2   Iowa   
3   Missouri   
4   Cornell
5   Ohio State   
6   Penn State   

Tourney
1   Iowa   
2   Ohio State
3   Minnesota   
4   Missouri   
5   Illinois
6   Cornell

I would love to see a team champion too but still want the individual tourney to be scored and count as a championship.

That is pretty much the status quo.

If there are two team championships, the dual meets will remain largely irreleant.   The individual tournament has all the juice.
I'd like to try a change, see what happens.

[MNbadger]

"If there are two team championships, the dual meets will remain largely irrelevant.   The individual tournament has all the juice."

You prove my point above.

[MNbadger]

"You ignore that there are bonus points in duels too."

No, I don't.  My point is that a superior wrestler deservedly has a greater effect on the outcome in the individual tournament as in the dual format.

In a dual Kyle Dake is more likely to be equal in effect on the outcome with a less capable wrestler than in the individual format.

Also, in an individual tournament, you get fans cheering for many teams.  They want wrestlers to knock someone off to help their team.

I would have way less interest in a team dual final with PSU and Okie State than an individual tournement where MN can rally and place 5th, 6th, or 10th.
When my team is out of a dual tournament I really have little interest in watching it.
The individual format keeps more fans interested longer.  There is interest even if your team finishes 20th for instance.

[Huckfinn]

"If there are two team championships, the dual meets will remain largely irrelevant.   The individual tournament has all the juice."

You prove my point above.

The individual tournament needs no team championship to keep it exciting.

You are intent on keeping the status quo, with the dual tournament irrelevant.

Having both an exciting dual and individual tournament is a boost for the sport of college wrestling.

[Huckfinn]

No, I don't.  My point is that a superior wrestler deservedly has a greater effect on the outcome in the individual tournament as in the dual format.

In a dual Kyle Dake is more likely to be equal in effect on the outcome with a less capable wrestler than in the individual format.

Yes, of course.  We can go round and round about this.   The dual is better at measuring the team depth.   The tournament allows teams with weak links to succeed.   Pinners have plenty of influence on dual meets, its not simply balance.

Also, in an individual tournament, you get fans cheering for many teams.  They want wrestlers to knock someone off to help their team.

Ya, OK, more joy for the fans of 2 or 3 teams out of 60.

I would have way less interest in a team dual final with PSU and Okie State than an individual tournement where MN can rally and place 5th, 6th, or 10th.
When my team is out of a dual tournament I really have little interest in watching it.
The individual format keeps more fans interested longer.  There is interest even if your team finishes 20th for instance.

Competitive dual meets are a blast to watch.     There seem to be so few of them.  A competitive duel meet between elite teams is just the best drama - for everybody.

Everybody is not going to agree.    I say take the dual tournament off life support and make it exciting.    Two great tournaments is so much better than one.   I acknowledge that there is a small loss at the individual tournament by moving the championship to the duals, but it is an experiment well worth trying.