Reduction of weights argument

[boowrestle]

Ramjet, Div1 106lbs(7)almost 1/2 the field are upperclassmen,so not majority of underclassmen.Yes the 106lbers cut wt just like every other wt class.My son is one of your so called tall skinny 106lbers(5' he has been at 106lbs since day 1,is he cutting a little wt(yes),but also eats what he wants during the week.I wrestled 98lbs all 4 yrs of high school,why should kids that are naturally small be punished .

[jw52]

Ramjet, Div1 106lbs(7)almost 1/2 the field are upperclassmen,so not majority of underclassmen.Yes the 106lbers cut wt just like every other wt class.My son is one of your so called tall skinny 106lbers(5' he has been at 106lbs since day 1,is he cutting a little wt(yes),but also eats what he wants during the week.I wrestled 98lbs all 4 yrs of high school,why should kids that are naturally small be punished .

I have seen quite a few 106 pounders punish some plates at the buffet!

[ramjet]

Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

So fill a bunch of erroneous weights and continue with many forfeits the number do not lie but you want to ignore them and continue down a path of deception. Again the goal would not be ignore smaller folks they can gain weight just like anyone else and the admission is there they CUT WEIGHT. Heck why are they cutting if they are good enough to compete at 106 and make the State Tournament are you saying they are not good enough to compete at 113 and make it?

How many 106 lbers move up in weight every year?

The GOAL is to eliminate the FF. Create a development program that has legitimacy and give those younger wrestler true opportunity and make the Tournament Series what it should be a tough top level competition to see who the best wrestlers in the state are at that level. You guys are missing the point you would increase the numbers if you cut the weights back.  How can you continue argue with the numbers?

Heck Jags thinks the numbers are wrong because they are taken at the end of the year yet he makes the argument for me by saying kids quitting really they quit they are not wrestling.

FF and the numbers are there the trend is there, yet you want to continue down that path despite the facts.....

Sure there are few smaller stare young men and gals but if they are cutting who are you trying to convince me or yourselves?

[ramjet]

Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

Yes you do because as long as coaches feel they have to fill so many weight classes they will with underclassmen.

Please answer my questions about weight cuts at 106.

[jaguarwrestler]

I also included things like grades and being injured

[aarons23]

Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

Yes you do because as long as coaches feel they have to fill so many weight classes they will with underclassmen.

Please answer my questions about weight cuts at 106.

No more cutting than any other weight...infact several at 106 right now are cutting very if anything.  You seem worried about weight cutting....but only at 106?   If you cut weight classes and spread them out you will only create more weight cutting.  And no you don't....if coaches are filling weight classes with kids who are not ready.... When they could develop them on JV...that's a coaching problem.  

[ramjet]

Thanks for reinforcing my point....if d3 schools with a third of the population can do it....there is no excuse for bigger schools.  You are correct in increasing and building JV is a big part of building the sport....but you don't have to reduce weight classes to do that.

Yes you do because as long as coaches feel they have to fill so many weight classes they will with underclassmen.

Please answer my questions about weight cuts at 106.

No more cutting than any other weight...infact several at 106 right now are cutting very if anything.  You seem worried about weight cutting....but only at 106?   If you cut weight classes and spread them out you will only create more weight cutting.  And no you don't....if coaches are filling weight classes with kids who are not ready.... When they could develop them on JV...that's a coaching problem.  

So a coaching problem brought on by the desire to with fill weights they cannot. That being the case why not cut the number of weights and have those underclassman wrestle JV that should be of course there most belong.

Again the number do not lie we have F problem in this state and participation and your answer is always recruit but even though the statistics show that is not working.

Yes I think weight cutting culture is an issue i always felt that way. But I use that argument to reinforce an already valid point.

What about the numbers?

Do you think al these FF are good for the sport do you think weak and incomplete weight brackets at regionals are good for the sport or the Tournament series?

[jaguarwrestler]

no one weight has that many more missing than another... not all teams are missing the same weight... so to just cut a weight helps who? the team missing that weight this year? what about next year?

[aarons23]

no one weight has that many more missing than another... not all teams are missing the same weight... so to just cut a weight helps who? the team missing that weight this year? what about next year?

+10000.  There is no right weight to cut....so why cut any?

[ramjet]

It helps wrestling all together by reducing the open slots in brackets. Reduces the FF and open spots in brackets.

It helps with the development of younger underclass,an by allowing them to wrestle throughout the year against wrestlers more attune to their skill levels and will not demoralize them because week after week after week they get pounded on by more mature and physically developed older wrestlers. Then allow those 8th graders that are a capable to wrestle JV and you have increased opportunity.

It will actually entice schools and conferences to pursue more JV dual meets and tournaments. Those kids able to compete will not be thown into the fire just to fill some weights.

It will reduce FF.

It will increase the quality and competitive nature of the State Tournament series.

For those worried about the number of kids going to State that is easy.

Lets Take D3

Eliminate 2 weight classes.
But allow 3 Places from each Regional compete at the Sectional that adds 6 more kids from each Regional than today.
Then Allow 4 places each weight from each Sectional qualify for State.

2 Weight classes would eliminate the 6 wrestlers from each Sectional for the State Tournament as it is today But do as suggested above and you actually will qualify 6 plus 6 more so more wrestlers could go to the State Tournament from each Sectional.

[DocWrestling]

It all goes to whether wrestling is a team sport or an individual sport.

I think for duals we should have maybe 10 weight classes.

I think for individual tournaments we should have 14 weight classes.  But if it is truly individual, why do we have divisions?  The size of the school does not matter to an individual.  Just a bit frustrating at this time of the year when you see some kids stay home and you see other less talented kids move on to state.  I think if it is truly an individual sport then have one 32 man bracket down at state and try to get the 32 best individuals down to state.  Have a qualification process and then maybe a wild card process like the NCAA's have for those wrestlers with "geography" problems.

For the individual state tournament series,  if you went to one class, I would not even mind seeing 20 weight classes.

The wrestlers are out there at the top and they deserve the experience.  The problem is our dual system as it is pretty much broken.  Not enough matches at each dual to warrant travel expenses, lack of big match-ups to excite wrestlers and fans,  and the outcome of 95% of duals is known before the kids even weigh in.

[1Iota]

I don't see the logic in aligning with college weight classes.  Are you saying that a 14 year old high school freshman should weigh the same as a 19 year old college freshman?  IMO the heavier weight classes seem to be where more of the forfeits come into play.  We had 40 kids roughly on the team this year.  Our 195 lb.  pinched for 160 and our 220lb 170, both had to try to gain weight so they weren't at such a disadvantage.  I would like to see the numbers on what weight classes had more forfeits.

Ok you can keep the 113 weight class that fine but you look at who is at 106 and 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or Juniors and if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights

I am not familiar with every 106lb wrestler, but Airk Furseth is a junior & is not cutting weight to wrestle at a 106.  He is also one of the most skilled & exciting wrestlers in the State.  Instead of focusing on year in school maybe you should focus on skill level.  With the heavier weights you are much more likely to find some big kid that was pulled out of the hallway to fill a heavy weight class.  With out a doubt the quality of wrestling in the  lower weight classes is superior to the heavier weight classes, so why eliminate a weight class where serious dedicated wrestlers exist.

[warriordad]

I believe the size of the school does matter on a individual level , just on pure percentage basis . I don't have any data to back this up but lets just say 1 out of every 10 student's is a really good athlete then in a school of 1000 kids there is a much better chance of having a stud wrestler . Also most good wrestlers are made in the practice room . You see it up and down the state tournament brackets that most stud wrestlers have a team mate above or below a weight class . In a school of 300 or less kids you may have a very talented wrestler but if no one on the team is within a few weights of him how will he get pushed every day . Look at Kaukauna varsity reserve team . They take them to varsity tournament and win with back up wrestlers. We will never know the answer but how good would them kids be if they were on a small D-3 program ?

[ramjet]

First off I am not the one who suggested cutting any particular weight but what is interesting is as soon as the topic is brought up everyone goes to 106. I wonder why?

Worriordad what is your point? That is funny a particular D3 school goes to D1 level tournaments all the time and paces and frankly wins many of them.

This is not about D3 there are FF in very large D1 schools and dual meets how come the programs are so strong at the D1 level then why any FF?

Where I'd ANYONE say that 106 is not competitive or any 106 particular wrestle at 106 is not a good wrestler?

Where were all you when they realigned the weights and cut the middle weight class those kids in that weight class where studs.

Look a the the numbers stay focused and address the numbers posted look at the regionals at ALL levels tell me why there are so many open brackets and so many open weights?

So just keep going that way?

[1Iota]

First off I am not the one who suggested cutting any particular weight but what is interesting is as soon as the topic is brought up everyone goes to 106. I wonder why?

Worriordad what is your point? That is funny a particular D3 school goes to D1 level tournaments all the time and paces and frankly wins many of them.

This is not about D3 there are FF in very large D1 schools and dual meets how come the programs are so strong at the D1 level then why any FF?

Where I'd ANYONE say that 106 is not competitive or any 106 particular wrestle at 106 is not a good wrestler?

Where were all you when they realigned the weights and cut the middle weight class those kids in that weight class where studs.

Look a the the numbers stay focused and address the numbers posted look at the regionals at ALL levels tell me why there are so many open brackets and so many open weights?

So just keep going that way?

I can tell you where I was, I was at the coaches clinic, at national events, & on this forum offering the opinion that the changes made no sense.  I believed then & believe now that it made no sense to add a weight where there were so few kids & take one away where there were so many.  The reasoning, to attract more football players made even less sense. 

I was responding to your direct quote, "ok you can keep the 113 class that fine but you look who is at 106 & 113 mostly underclassman not many seniors or juniors & if they are I would bet they are cutting to get to those weights".   Sure sounded to me like you were advocating eliminating the 106lb class.