Should coaches hold out "less experienced" wrestlers?

[guillotine]

Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.

[DeLaRiva]

- Forfeits are bad for our sport.
- A very good way to learn where you have holes in your defense is to wrestle much better competition.
- Coaches need to coach. You don't just get to send out the guys that you think are going to win. You have to find the positives and "needs work" areas of each wrestler. Sometimes the goal is just individual progress, regardless of the outcome.
- Learning how to deal with losing is a part of life.
- Holding out may give the youth the impression that it's ok to quit if you're not going to win. Kids already treat enough stuff like a video game. We will make better adults if we teach them that they can't just reset the game when they start to lose.

[Alumni]

What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.

How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.

I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.

The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors.  They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates.  When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own. 

Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals.  Every team sport relies on individual contributions.

Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game.  mwahhahahahaha

I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen.  Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play.  When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage.  For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate.   Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling? 

Judging by some of your responses, it seems to me that you are saying those other two girl's may not have been qualified to be on the varsity. They were obviously out of their league and I'm sure themselves and their parents were embarrassed at times.
Should those two girls been sent to the jv level and your granddaughter been in the field by herself?
I bet the thought never crossed your mind because it wouldn't have helped any of them.
So why is wrestling so different?

[imnofish]

Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.

That can happen in any sport and it should.  The difference is that when he is on his back during competition, his teammate can't help save his bacon.  The responsibility is all on his shoulders at that point and not every kid is ready for that kind of responsibility and pressure, yet.  Other folks don't look at the situation the same way wrestlers do, so the social pressure can be pretty brutal.  When my son was a freshman in high school, he beat out the previous year's varsity kid to earn a spot on the team.  He only won about a third of his matches, though, as he was wrestling mostly upperclassmen.  The guys on the FRESHMEN basketball team, who were enjoying a winning season, really started to ride him about having a losing record.  He pointed out to them that he was competing mostly against older, more mature athletes, but they just didn't see the relevance.  At one point, it turned into a class discussion, in which the teacher joined the aggressors.  We stepped in and made some waves and the teacher (who was a very good one) accepted responsibility, publicly apologized, and set the basketball players straight on the situation.  My point is not to denigrate the teacher or the basketball team, but to point out that the mindset of the general population can be a detriment that the wrestler must deal with, and that should be considered when comparing wrestling to other sports considered more mainstream.  In regard to the question about whether the freshmen outfielders and their parents were embarrassed, there are some obvious differences, when comparing this situation to wrestling.  First of all, the team didn't have the option of forfeiting.  Also, the girls were not judged as individuals, but as part of the team and they did make their contributions over the course of the season.  However, they did not have the same weight on their shoulders (no pun intended) as they would if wrestling.  The attitude of the community was that they made varsity and the varsity was doing okay, so they must be okay.  See the difference?

[chuckref]

So are you guys saying that if you don't have all weight classes filled you can't compete in that duel?  There are rules in baseball, football, and softball where you have to have a minimum number of players.  I am sure you know this but are you saying we should force coaches to send kids out even if they feel that shouldn't?  

Chuck

[aarons23]

Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.

That can happen in any sport and it should.  The difference is that when he is on his back during competition, his teammate can't help save his bacon.  The responsibility is all on his shoulders at that point and not every kid is ready for that kind of responsibility and pressure, yet.  Other folks don't look at the situation the same way wrestlers do, so the social pressure can be pretty brutal.  When my son was a freshman in high school, he beat out the previous year's varsity kid to earn a spot on the team.  He only won about a third of his matches, though, as he was wrestling mostly upperclassmen.  The guys on the FRESHMEN basketball team, who were enjoying a winning season, really started to ride him about having a losing record.  He pointed out to them that he was competing mostly against older, more mature athletes, but they just didn't see the relevance.  At one point, it turned into a class discussion, in which the teacher joined the aggressors.  We stepped in and made some waves and the teacher (who was a very good one) accepted responsibility, publicly apologized, and set the basketball players straight on the situation.  My point is not to denigrate the teacher or the basketball team, but to point out that the mindset of the general population can be a detriment that the wrestler must deal with, and that should be considered when comparing wrestling to other sports considered more mainstream.  In regard to the question about whether the freshmen outfielders and their parents were embarrassed, there are some obvious differences, when comparing this situation to wrestling.  First of all, the team didn't have the option of forfeiting.  Also, the girls were not judged as individuals, but as part of the team and they did make their contributions over the course of the season.  However, they did not have the same weight on their shoulders (no pun intended) as they would if wrestling.  The attitude of the community was that they made varsity and the varsity was doing okay, so they must be okay.  See the difference?

Why are we so worried about saving someone's "bacon" ?  That's the best part of wrestling is learning to deal with adversity without 5 or ten others to save you.  

[imnofish]

Here is my example fish.
An inexperienced 145# gets taken down in a single leg and is pinned with a half Nelson. This happenes a couple times on a Saturday tournament. The following week the 145# wrestlers 220# teammate helps him work on the counters to the single leg and half Nelson. The following Saturday while the 145# wrestler is wrestling, the 220# wrestler and his teammates shout encouragement and directions to the 145# wrestler. He doesn't get taken down and doesn't get pinned. Teamwork at its best.

That can happen in any sport and it should.  The difference is that when he is on his back during competition, his teammate can't help save his bacon.  The responsibility is all on his shoulders at that point and not every kid is ready for that kind of responsibility and pressure, yet.  Other folks don't look at the situation the same way wrestlers do, so the social pressure can be pretty brutal.  When my son was a freshman in high school, he beat out the previous year's varsity kid to earn a spot on the team.  He only won about a third of his matches, though, as he was wrestling mostly upperclassmen.  The guys on the FRESHMEN basketball team, who were enjoying a winning season, really started to ride him about having a losing record.  He pointed out to them that he was competing mostly against older, more mature athletes, but they just didn't see the relevance.  At one point, it turned into a class discussion, in which the teacher joined the aggressors.  We stepped in and made some waves and the teacher (who was a very good one) accepted responsibility, publicly apologized, and set the basketball players straight on the situation.  My point is not to denigrate the teacher or the basketball team, but to point out that the mindset of the general population can be a detriment that the wrestler must deal with, and that should be considered when comparing wrestling to other sports considered more mainstream.  In regard to the question about whether the freshmen outfielders and their parents were embarrassed, there are some obvious differences, when comparing this situation to wrestling.  First of all, the team didn't have the option of forfeiting.  Also, the girls were not judged as individuals, but as part of the team and they did make their contributions over the course of the season.  However, they did not have the same weight on their shoulders (no pun intended) as they would if wrestling.  The attitude of the community was that they made varsity and the varsity was doing okay, so they must be okay.  See the difference?

Why are we so worried about saving someone's "bacon" ?  That's the best part of wrestling is learning to deal with adversity without 5 or ten others to save you.  

I'm not worried about that, but pointing out that the non-wrestling community does not see it the same way we do and that can be a deal breaker for some kids who just aren't ready.  I've known kids who quit wrestling over this type of pressure, because it just became overwhelming for them.  My stance is, and always has been, that the coach should be entrusted with the responsibility for knowing his wrestlers and making the individually-appropriate call on this issue.  

[DocWrestling]

Kids wrestle because it is fun.  It is up to the coach to figure out what makes it fun for that individual.  Some will have fun going out and challenging anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.

Others are more sensitive and it is going to be no fun to go out and get pounded on while friends and family are watching.

Some wrestlers wrestle better in tournaments because they feel less pressure with multiple mats going on versus being the one match.

If they are not having fun then you are not going to get maximum effort anyway.  No policy will be the same for every wrestler.

Some kids want to be state champs.  Some just want a letter.  Some just want to be part of a team.

[Alumni]

This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.

[DocWrestling]

This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.

I would hope that would be the attitude of everyone because then no matter what it has been a great season.  My fear is that some are beaten up and discouraged and want the season over.  The coach has to figure out which one each wrestler is.

[imnofish]

Kids wrestle because it is fun.  It is up to the coach to figure out what makes it fun for that individual.  Some will have fun going out and challenging anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.

Others are more sensitive and it is going to be no fun to go out and get pounded on while friends and family are watching.

Some wrestlers wrestle better in tournaments because they feel less pressure with multiple mats going on versus being the one match.

If they are not having fun then you are not going to get maximum effort anyway.  No policy will be the same for every wrestler.

Some kids want to be state champs.  Some just want a letter.  Some just want to be part of a team.

Yep.  Can't argue with that.

[imnofish]

This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.

I would hope that would be the attitude of everyone because then no matter what it has been a great season.  My fear is that some are beaten up and discouraged and want the season over.  The coach has to figure out which one each wrestler is.

Sounds like we are on the same page. 

[billymurphy]

That is the problem with having so many weights.  More quantity, less quality. Putting a kid on varsity before he is ready and getting hammered.
I would not use the word "fun" to describe it.  I would use other words but not that one. 

[bigoil]

This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.

I think feb 15th is much different than dec 15th, and yet it still likely depends on the kid but most should be improved enough to compete on varsity.

[Jim Shoe]

This has been a great conversation and I respect everyone's opinion.
My opinion is that these handful of kids have been on the team for the whole season. They understand their skill level and what the general outcome will be, yet they are begging for a chance to wrestle, be part of the team and finish the season on the mat not in the stands. Doesn't seem like to much to ask.

I think feb 15th is much different than dec 15th, and yet it still likely depends on the kid but most should be improved enough to compete on varsity.

I hate to use a famous baskeball coach by the name of Pat Riley on a wrestling forum but I couldn't resist.... "There comes a time when everyone has to plant their feet and kick some inappropriate term2"  Pat was a little kid and used to go to the playground with his older brother and one day he came home crying about how he was getting beat up so bad on the BB court.  The quote above is from Pat's dad, because if he didn't decide to plant his feet he was going to have to stay home.  For some kids planting your feet is getting pinned in the 2nd minute and not the 1st, for others it's scoring one point, others it's not giving up a pin.  I believe that kids don't need to be coddled, they need to be encouraged to get a little better each time they battle, plant their feet and take a stand!