Should coaches hold out "less experienced" wrestlers?

[chuckref]

Whenever he feels it's the right thing to do, he's the coach, you're not.  When you start coaching then you get to make the decision.

Chuck

[Mat Warrior]

Would you put a 7-9(just an example) wrestler in the conference tournament where even if he won one match it would help win the tournament?

I don't know for sure but I think Alumni(if I think it is who I am thinking) was a coach for a long time and was very successful and does know what the wrestlers are capable of.

[Alumni]

All good points guys and I respect your opinions.
A couple more thoughts, is it fair to the rest of the team when you are basically taking a chance at a conference and regional championship away from them?
A lot of you are saying that you shouldn't let them wrestle or going 2-2 at jv is better than 1-3 in a varsity tournament. What if 2 of those 3 varsity losses were close quality matches? What if 2 of the jv matches were 20 second pins? Not every jv kid can't compete at the varsity level.
Lets take Lancaster for example, on another thread it says they have 5 potential state champs but not a lot around them. I have looked at some of those kids records and some are well below 500. Lancaster has been in the conversation as a contenders for a state championship. So are you saying it would be in the kids and the programs best interest to sit 5-6 wrestlers and give Lancaster no chance of winning their regional or sectional?
I'm guessing that those kids would much rather go 1-3 at the regional, score some team points and be a part of a team that has a chance at a state championship than they would like to go 2-2 at a jv tournament of Feb 10th and be sitting in the stands watching the team state tournament.
I feel that by sitting them kids you are turning a team sport back into an individual sport. No matter what you are going to have inferior wrestlers on your team. But what keeps them coming back is having team success and being part of that "team".
I saw the kid from Lancaster who had a 5-25 record jumping up and down and celebrating just as hard as Martin,Cornell and the rest of the studs at team state last year.
I agree that every kid is different and every situation is different but I still feel you should put your team before individuals.

[chuckref]

Well as far as the team goes, then it is a little different and I think you need to have the other team mates somewhat involved and help pump the lesser kid up.  I think more kids would be willing to go out and try even if they get beat badly if they were doing it for the "team".  And to me, that's what is missing in Wisconsin that Minnesota has, is much more emphasis on the team and not the individual.

Chuck

[guillotine]

100% agree. If you put the team first you will have much stronger individuals.
Its not a coincidence that the annual teams at the team state tournament like Rapids, Casco, kuakauna, Point, Coleman etc are also some of the leaders of individual state champs.
I would be willing to bet that those teams preach "Team" first and their not to worried about their inferior kids suffering a couple bumps and bruises in the process.
Good programs show their kids that they are part of something bigger and they may be called on at times to sacrifice for the betterment of the team.
If that means going out and wrestling a 3x state champ and doing your best to not get pinned then so be it.
Winning JV matches isn't the only way to establish pride in a individual.
Some people say you can learn a lot more from losing a match than winning one. Well if your not very good you have a distinct learning advantage over someone that is good, you have a lot more tape to watch.

[crossface21]

When using the phrase "in my day...." realize that things are very, very different than 30, 20, even 15 years ago. As whatever said, the 3 sport kids are going the way of the dinosaurs because of specialization. I think that's really popped up the last 10-15 years.

As for holding out less experienced wrestlers, I think it goes on a wrestler by wrestler basis. Each kid is different. Some kids can take a pounding and will keep coming back. Some won't. I've seen it both ways. But another thing that stuck of what was said is that the backside of the tournaments are glorified JV tournaments and there aren't many JV matches to be had. I think that's probably more of a issue up north where there are smaller schools and less kids to draw from. Being a DI school, we travel to tournaments where there are mostly DI schools. The backside of the tournament is usually not a JV tournament. They have kids that have experience. They are kids that are 7-9 or 6-10 that have actually wrestled the matches and the wins are not FF's. I think if you go to some of the tournaments that are primarily made up of DII and DIII schools, I thinks it's true the top kids are very good, but after that there is the potential for a big drop off in talent mainly because there just isn't the talent pool to draw from like there is at the DI level.

At this time of year though, you have the kids that have toughed it the whole year. They are probably going to be coming back next year if they haven't quit by now. Explain to the kids with lesser experience what the stakes are and that they have nothing to lose. Put them in the end of the year tournaments.

[Alumni]

 What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.

How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.

I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.

[imnofish]

What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.

How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.

I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.

The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors.  They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates.  When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own. 

[chuckref]

Good point fish.  It might be a team dual, but the 220 can't come out and help the 145 from getting beat.

Chuck

[Alumni]

That's true but the 145 pounder is wrestling another 145 pounder. The playing field is somewhat more level.
A 125 pound corner might be asked to cover or tackle a 200 pound offensive player with no help.
A 5'5" BB player may be guarding a 6'2" player on every play if that's his position.
My point is that it would never be considered in any other sport.
Believe me I have been run over by a 250# fullback when I weighed about 110#. When i picked my butt up I didn't say to myself "hey maybe I should just play on the jv team". I got up strapped it back on and figured maybe I should lower my target area a bit. Didn't really help my tackling a lot but I was able to at least finish the game in one piece.

[DrWhargoul]

What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.

How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.

I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.

The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors.  They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates.  When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own. 

Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals.  Every team sport relies on individual contributions.

Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game.  mwahhahahahaha

[tmandr]

About the only time I could see for sure holding someone out is for safety reasons.  If they lack the experience and physical ability to defend themselves, as I most commonly see in heavyweights where a team is just trying to fill a spot.  Nobody wins when there is a 10 second pin.

After that, one school of thought boils down to how you define success.  If success is determined only by wins and losses, green wrestlers can't begin with realistic initial goals like staying in good position, not getting pinned, or scoring something other than an escape, etc.

Like it or not, the fragility of kids ego's is a factor that grows every year and is a very realistic concern for coaches these days.

[imnofish]

What do you think would happen if this was done in any other sport?
Does every small school have 9 solid baseball players, 11 solid football players, 5 solid BB players?
Would a coach ever even consider only suiting up 10 football, 8 baseball or 4 BB players?
Why is wrestling any different?
Every other sport fields athletes that are not upper echelon players and sometimes they may even be detrimental to there team.
I would like to see what happens to coach who has 6-7 good football players and decides to only put them on the field while the rest of the players watch.
In wrestling whats the worst that could happen, one kid gives up 6 team points? In any other sport one kid could be the reason behind giving up lots of points yet no coach would play with less the the maximum amount of starters.

How many ball players would stick it out if they didn't get to play and your team played with less starters than you are allowed.

I like what crosface said, at this point of the season these kids are pretty committed to the team.
So as a coach you really have nothing to lose but a whole lot to gain.

The difference is that kids in those sports don't go into a situation in which they are spotlighted as individual competitors.  They are team sports and those kids can get physical support from their teammates.  When that inexperienced kid is on the mat, he is on his own. 

Tell the center fielder that lets the ball sail 2 inches beyond his outstretched glove or the point guard that lets the inbound pass bounce off his chest because he's got his head turned that they aren't in the spotlight as individuals.  Every team sport relies on individual contributions.

Or the center that snaps the ball over his QB's head and into his own endzone on the first play of the game.  mwahhahahahaha

I recently watched my granddaughter play center field for an entire softball season, as a senior flanked by two freshmen.  Her speed, experience, and maturity allowed her to cover most of the outfield and back up the youngsters on nearly every play.  When they messed up, she was there to help minimize the damage.  For example, I saw her scoop up a missed ground ball from left field and throw a runner out at home plate.   Can you give me a parallel example of this dynamic in wrestling? 

[DocWrestling]

Wrestling is a unique sport in many senses.  It is one on one and it is much different than tennis.  It is a physical agressive sport that almost makes one put his manhood on the line.  Other sports do not have this.  When you are on the free throw line all alone it is still not your "manhood" on the line.

The great coaches allow even the most green wrestlers ways to feel good about their performance or a way to feel victory with simplistic achievable goals.  The key is that the whole team needs to know the goals so they can celebrate when achieved.  I have seen wrestlers not recognize what a great help to a team it was when a wrestler did not give up a major or get pinned.

Sometimes a state champ can't pin a rookie wrestler but wins 12-1 and that is celebrated but it is really the rookie wrestler that had the team victory.

It depends on the kid and it depends on the situation which is why there are coaches.  Sometimes you can sense a kid is lacking confidence and not enjoying the sport, then you don't send him out to get pinned.  If he has some victories under his belt and is feeling pretty good and up to the challenge, then you go for it.

[imnofish]

Exactly, Doc!  It all boils down to the coach knowing his wrestlers and doing what is most likely the best for them.