Support for JH inclusion?

[MNbadger]

"MNBadger, there is a difference between throwing a Junior to the wolves than a freshman or 7th grader."

Not as much of a difference as you imagine Howavi.  There are plenty of older kids who get shattered being thrown to the wolves.  Does it not matter if they are juniors or seniors.  Sure, as a rule older kids MIGHT be better at handling it. Usually though the younger kids are lighter and for the most part it is uneventful like it is in most cases.  If you have a particularly soft kid you take it on a case by case basis (and then get called names when you forfeit!).   The truth is I think the young guys are better at handling it as they put less presure on themselves.

I don't mean to step on toes her but it seems I am wasting my time.  There aren't piles of dead and dying 7th and 8th graders in MN due to them wrestling varsity.  For the most part Mn/WI are quite similar.  I believe this is one of the reasons our wrestling is better (I have lived both places and been involved in wrestling in both places).

Good gosh, we have an 8th grader ranked #1 at 195 and he is wrestling UP a weight.  Trust me, the majority of 7th and 8th graders are at light weights and they are doing great win or lose.
Where is the evidence of you worries?

[bigoil]

I agree with you MN on all points except the age. I know it works in MN which should be no reason it doesn't work here.

Proof of my fears are kids with 5 days of practice, not overly athletic, put on varsity in the majority of our 330 HS. I don't live or attend matches in MN so I have no idea if that happens or use to happen and maybe as you say it doesn't matter on age, again, you live it not me. I'm assuming that the team is going to lose some of the kids thrown to the wolves so to speak. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd think that would effect a program more to lose 7th grade new comers than 11th grade new comers.

I'm not even against jhi, I just fear the how it is implemented by the many of the programs in the state. I wish we had it, when I was in 7th grade, I could have been on my brothers team. I love the practice together but I believe that can be done now (provided adequate space).

[littleguy301]

A few years ago, when they were talking about forfeits and not filling out line ups, I believe Minnesota was on pace with Wisconsin in that department.

Minnesota has kids quit, get burnt out, and the tar beat out of them only not to be on the team the following year.

I think that there open enrollment with the students is a bigger thing than JHI in Minnesota. Kids move freely around the school system at will and often 2-3 times in high school.

If you get that many transfers and good ones, heck your bound to get some good competition in the room if 3 state champs from other schools move into your district.

I am on the fence with JHI, but the example of this 8th grader shouldnt be the prime example for JHI. While I am saying nothing bad about him, he is a stud but you also have to take a look at what the parents have spent on him for wrestling, moving from one state to another to wrestle.

Tough to compare what I feel is a normal JR high kid to a kid that is being used in this situation.

[MNbadger]

 "I'm assuming that the team is going to lose some of the kids thrown to the wolves so to speak."

Yes, and this has been happening since wrestling started.  Kids quit all the time.  Someone on this thread already mentioned they have an upper classman who is a tough wretler in the room and he can't handle competition.  His coach decided to pull him out of competition.
Every year that I coached our high school we had at least one and usually two 7th and/or 8th graders who were major contributors.  This was when we were quite competitive.  In fact, it killed us for the first few years when we were in the On the Water Classic.  We were leaving 20 and more points per wrestler home because at that time they couldn't compete.

[Street Glide]

I question I have about the MN 7th and 8th graders are they home grown from MN, or are they transfers from other states making them elite kids.  There is a huge difference from putting the average 7th grader out there compared to a transfer who is by no means average.

[MNbadger]

Tews, there are MANY more 7th and 8th graders contributing to their respective varsity teams than the marque wrestlers you mention.
Honestly NONE of the perceived issues that the anti-inclusion proponents occur here in MN (at least to any more of a degree than they do with wrestlers from 9-12th grade).
It is tiresome to debate this and have people stubbornly hung onto beliefs that are and have been constantly, daily disproved right across the border.

Yes, stick with what you are doing. Watch all the destruction of wrestlers in MN due to their wrestling as 7th and 8th graders on their varsity teams.  Be assured that you are making the right decision.

[imnofish]

If we do what we've always done, we'll get what we've always got.  Does Wisconsin aspire to improve, or are we satisfied with current trends?

[littleguy301]

When I compare I am comparing 7th and 8th grade against juniors and seniors. I need to be more in the game.

I just checked out some Minnesota scores from the past weekend. It does look that quite a few 7th and 8th graders are competing very well against kids of their own age. I see many 7th and 8th graders going at each other and doing well but I also see more in the lighter weights.

If your going to have JHI you also have to realize that it could in Wisconsin basically take away the middle school wrestling. I see many teams in my area that have fewer than 12 wrestlers on it with most of them 7th and 8th graders. I also see some teams with uppers of 30 or so on them with 20 in the 7th and 8th grade range.

The gap in Wisconsin would be pretty big if you ask me. What do you then do with the 6th and lower grades?

Most of those kids many 5th graders are in the youth and practice 2 or so nights a week and most schools will not support a team of middle school kids of 10 or less 6th graders. So what do you do with the 6th graders then?

I just see a huge gap in practice and I also see that if you have JHI you may lose some wrestlers that will not go out in 7th or 8th grade because they will be with the varsity and there learning curve will be very short.

People have to realize that some Wisconsin schools will either be all in or all out on this. I think the middle ground is going to very rare. And I also think in some cases that it will take wrestling down in those very important ages of the pre-teens and early teens.

While I am not against the idea of JHI, in Wisconsin it just is not a lets do it next year plan, it has to be well thought out and planned out and that will involve the schools and the AD to be very well educated in this. That is where I get leery, because some AD know nothing about wrestling and they will do nothing to help the JHI grow and work the best it should.

[Handles II]

LG,
First, JHI inclusion isn't going to happen any time soon in WI, you can ease your fears that it might happen next year. The WIAA as it sits right now, and the majority of A.D.'s have no interest in doing anything to promote or improve wrestling, and probably less than 1/2 of the coaches in the state (those who have first hand experience with JHI) would at this time support it.

I believe MN teams, as a whole, have an advantage vs. WI teams in part due to JHI. That said, there are teams in WI that can beat MN teams and vice versa. From a coaching standpoint, there is a huge difference. I'm currently working daily with my 7th graders, across the river the head coach may not even know the 7th graders or what they are doing in practice. Middle School parents are attending our events, helping with our fundraising, etc. Is that type of cooperation happening between the HS and MS in wisconsin? Based on programs that I'm familiar with, it isn't. There is a gap between youth and high school, kind of a no-man's land. Really good kids often don't even wrestle with their middle schools, but stick with club. What is the message that sends to the kids in middle school? In mn, the really good kids and the average, and the beginers are all working together with the same coaching staff.

Recently my MS guys went to a MS tournament in Wi. I only had 9 kids competing, 6 were beginers this year. We went 20-6 in our matches.  The difference, I believe, isn't that i'm a superior coach, or these are better athletes (all but one has losing records in MN) but that they have been practicing with the varsity each day, doing the same things, their conditioning and technique even as 1st year wrestlers was much better than the WI kids. We had similar results last year. It doesn't mean my guys will be come elite wrestlers, it just means they have a big jump on the Wi kids, and this will probably increase their confidence and willingness to stay in the sport. If not, it didn't hurt a thing to have them with us.

I don't have a good team (yet) but I know the advantage that I have over a coach in WI who is also trying to build a program that is in a similar hurt as mine is that JHI gives me and my coaches direct contact with the MS guys each day.

[imnofish]

LG,
First, JHI inclusion isn't going to happen any time soon in WI, you can ease your fears that it might happen next year. The WIAA as it sits right now, and the majority of A.D.'s have no interest in doing anything to promote or improve wrestling, and probably less than 1/2 of the coaches in the state (those who have first hand experience with JHI) would at this time support it.

I believe MN teams, as a whole, have an advantage vs. WI teams in part due to JHI. That said, there are teams in WI that can beat MN teams and vice versa. From a coaching standpoint, there is a huge difference. I'm currently working daily with my 7th graders, across the river the head coach may not even know the 7th graders or what they are doing in practice. Middle School parents are attending our events, helping with our fundraising, etc. Is that type of cooperation happening between the HS and MS in wisconsin? Based on programs that I'm familiar with, it isn't. There is a gap between youth and high school, kind of a no-man's land. Really good kids often don't even wrestle with their middle schools, but stick with club. What is the message that sends to the kids in middle school? In mn, the really good kids and the average, and the beginers are all working together with the same coaching staff.

Recently my MS guys went to a MS tournament in Wi. I only had 9 kids competing, 6 were beginers this year. We went 20-6 in our matches.  The difference, I believe, isn't that i'm a superior coach, or these are better athletes (all but one has losing records in MN) but that they have been practicing with the varsity each day, doing the same things, their conditioning and technique even as 1st year wrestlers was much better than the WI kids. We had similar results last year. It doesn't mean my guys will be come elite wrestlers, it just means they have a big jump on the Wi kids, and this will probably increase their confidence and willingness to stay in the sport. If not, it didn't hurt a thing to have them with us.

I don't have a good team (yet) but I know the advantage that I have over a coach in WI who is also trying to build a program that is in a similar hurt as mine is that JHI gives me and my coaches direct contact with the MS guys each day.

IMO, this is the key.  I know some programs practiced this way at one time and were dominant in Wisconsin.  Two that come to mind were Shell Lake and Athens.

[The Last Ride]

Is MN High School wrestling better than WI High School wrestling? And if it is, could it be because kids get 2 years extra varsity level experience? With hockey being a huge sport in MN they still have very good wrestling in MN.

[MNbadger]

"Is MN High School wrestling better than WI High School wrestling?"

Yes, I think most would agree that MN wrestling is better.  I don't think JH inclusion is the only reason however.  I do think it is part of the reason. 
The other thing I will mention and it was addressed in an earlier post in this thread, you DO NOT want to lose your JH or MS programs for JH inclusion.  There has to be a place for all levels of kids to develop in the proper environment.

[boowrestle]

I think some of you are misunderstanding JHI it is not a replacement for middle school wrestling.Not every 7/8 grade kid is ready to be at the high school level.JMO i think it would be a great option for some of the upper caliber level middle school wrestlers in WI.

[littleguy301]

I understand what people are saying about NOT replacing the JR high. I get that but I do have some concerns in that area. I am not bashing JHI but just asking questions.

I do fee if Wisconsin ever came to JHI it would be down the road but I ask what would happen with the middle schools. They are already low in some areas and if a couple of them are good enough to step up what happens to the rest of the wrestlers that are not as good? Does the school look at numbers and say the heck with middle school if you have less than 10 kids out?

I have to ask these questions when talking about JHI.

I also like to think that MN is better because of the shear size of the main area of wrestling in the Metro area and all of the outside coaching, top end clubs and so on that are availible in such a short area that is appealing to many many up and coming wrestlers.

[MNbadger]

"I also like to think that MN is better because of the shear size of the main area of wrestling in the Metro area and all of the outside coaching, top end clubs and so on that are availible in such a short area that is appealing to many many up and coming wrestlers."

While it is true about the population, the outstate part of MN produces many, many quality wrestlers so that is not it.  I mentioned before, when we had the MN/WI border battle many of the wrestlers from MN were outstaters and they won mmost of the tim.
I think it is many things (JHI among the reasons) but mostly a mindset and commitment to year 'round wrestling.