Why don't WI wrestlers dominate in college?

dirt · November 12, 2013, 08:59:15 AM

My question is Why don't many WI high school studs have that same success in college? I mean we have 3 and 4 time state champs that don't even make the roster in college! I can think of a few of them in just the last few years that I believe were the number 1 ranked high school wrestler in the nation, some of them dominated at the national level in high school, some even did on the international level, and now have not carried that on to the next level. I mean dominance, not just being on the team or even being ranked in the top 20 or an ALL American. I know what some of you will say, and I am not bashing anyone, because just wrestling beyond high school is an amazing accomplishment. I just can't figure out why they can't make that next jump? A few of these kids that have come out of WI in the last few years I would have bet a million bucks would be wrestling in the Olympics, and winning multiple National titles!

Handles II · November 12, 2013, 09:44:04 AM

Probably because your perception of them is wrong and that competition in college is tougher than in high school. That isn't a knock against you or those kids you speak of, but I've had the opportunity to watch 2x state champs come into a college wrestling room and not score a point against kids who never even placed at state, or even qualified in their state. Our perception of who is the best is often incorrect, and there is always someone else that seems to blossom or perform far beyond what their percieved abilities are. Lastly, some kids change their focus about the sport and being an olympic champion isn't their goal.

dirt · November 12, 2013, 03:46:59 PM

I don't believe my perception is wrong. I said "I am not bashing anyone because just wrestling beyond high school is a big accomplishment" My question was why don't they have the same success at the next level? How do you go from being ranked #1 in the nation in high school to no where near that in college. And I looked up state populations on Wikipedia yes we are ranked 20Th but Oklahoma is ranked 28Th in Pop. and Iowa is 31st. We are almost twice the pop. of Iowa! Once again I think it is awesome that they even want to wrestle at the "next level" and yes an ALL American is a great accomplishment. It is hard to make my point without using examples (and that is not my intention to call out anyone) But has WI ever had any extremely successful high school wrestlers go on to have the same success in college. I can think of Askren in college but not sure how many high school state titles he won.

Handles II · November 12, 2013, 04:55:32 PM

Wisconsin has had many very notible wrestlers in each level of the NCAA's and beyond. And while we have a larger population of people in this state vs. Iowa or OK, the % of kids who wrestle is much lower. Think about it, OK and Iowa, both with lower populations than us have more D1 wrestling programs per state, and with much more storied histories. When everyone you know growing up wrestles, it's not such a big deal to get out there and do it yourself. When only a few wrestle, it can seem like a pretty far-out sport. As for your concern about guys with #1 rankings....Well, they are rankings and not always valid. I'll always remember what Zach Tannali told me at my camp one year. He came to the badgers as the #4 ranked kid out of high school (NJ) and figured he'd clean up in the wisconsin wrestling room. He said it was 3 months before he scored his first takedown in practice wrestling against guys who didn't have near his pedigree.

whatever · November 12, 2013, 05:13:45 PM

Don't just look at the top-ranked guys from high school. Every state has top-ranked HS kids who never reach that next level in college.

Wisconsin has had plenty of unranked HS kids go on and be AA at the D1 level.

MNbadger · November 12, 2013, 07:56:25 PM

Yes, to reiterate what whatever stated. There are plenty of 3 and 4 time state champs from other states who don't "pan out" in DI wrestling.
I am not going to bring up names but you can do some searching and find out this is very common.

MNbadger · November 12, 2013, 07:57:23 PM

Wisconsin product Steven Monk is quite dominant.

Jody Weber · November 12, 2013, 08:55:57 PM

Agree, Steven Monk has dominated. He scored his 100th win last Saturday at Bison and then won the tournament over Zilverberg. He was one round from being AA last year and I believe that was third NCAA appearance. Monk also dominates in the class room. He was all academic for his conference last year and will graduate with a real degree. Sueflon and Dierringer haven't done too bad on the mat either.

Big House · November 13, 2013, 02:44:15 PM

There are many cadet state champs and national champs that never make the state tournament in Wisconsin. Some play basketball. Some get burned out. Some only wrestled for their parent's. It takes a ton of self motivation to compete in high school and even more so in college.

I always liked the 2nd or 3rd or 5th place kids that had that desire and fell short. One point in one match. They're still hungry. That 2, 3, or 4-timer may have accomplished all of his goals in HS and college didn't get his full compassion. They need that fire.

Askren ... overlooked by many colleges because he didn't have the credentials. He wasn't an 4-timer. He might have had that fire.

Kurth · November 13, 2013, 06:29:01 PM

I don't think Askren was under the radar. Here's what I remember about Askren's High School state tournaments: He lost, 11-10, in the State Finals to Henning in his freshman year, 1999, I believe. He won the title rather easily in 2000. The big moment was when he cut returning Waukesha North State Champ Spencer Dominquez in the closing seconds of a tied quarterfinal match and then scored the winning takedown (I was in the tunnel and didn't get to see it). He cruised to the title in 2001 and then sustained a severe injury (ankle?) in the 2002 Sectional. He wrestled at State despite struggling to even walk, lost to eventual champ Howard and then forfeited his remaining matches.
I think his style of wrestling is what had many people, including college coaches, doubting his potential for collegiate success. His creativity and instinct were clearly underestimated.

Big House · November 14, 2013, 12:41:52 PM

You don't think he was still looking to prove himself?

I think that some of the colleges giving him the cool shoulder spurred him on even more, but he left high school unfulfilled as a wrestler. He had more to show us.

I'm just saying that many unbelievable HS wrestlers have already proved themselves and have little left to give.

Ghetto · November 14, 2013, 12:45:25 PM

We got hosed on backpoints in that match. Just sayin'

Big House · November 14, 2013, 12:49:37 PM

Quote from: Ghetto on November 14, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
We got hosed on backpoints in that match. Just sayin'

Nice!

buc65 · November 14, 2013, 12:57:15 PM

Quote from: Big House on November 13, 2013, 02:44:15 PM
There are many cadet state champs and national champs that never make the state tournament in Wisconsin. Some play basketball. Some get burned out. Some only wrestled for their parent's. It takes a ton of self motivation to compete in high school and even more so in college.

I always liked the 2nd or 3rd or 5th place kids that had that desire and fell short. One point in one match. They're still hungry. That 2, 3, or 4-timer may have accomplished all of his goals in HS and college didn't get his full compassion. They need that fire.

Askren ... overlooked by many colleges because he didn't have the credentials. He wasn't an 4-timer. He might have had that fire.

I'm not sure what credentials you look for when recruiting kids out of high school, but the following is from Askren's profile on Missouri's website:

Ranked among the top-25 high school wrestlers, Askren was a three-time All-American (2000-2002) and two-time Wisconsin State Champion (2001-2002). Coached by John Mesenbrink, Askren was the 2002 Junior Nationals Champion and finished second in the High School Nationals at 160-pounds. Askren holds the state record in takedowns in a season (401) and in a career (1,100). In 2002, Askren finished fourth at the FILA Junior Freestyle Nationals, while in 2001, he finished fourth at the FILA Cadet Freestyle Nationals and fifth in the 2000 Cadet Greco-Roman nationals.

Big House · November 14, 2013, 01:38:53 PM

Number one .... Askren was a 2-time state champ and not a 3 or 4-timer.

Number two .... He was overlooked by many D1 programs.

That's all I'm saying.

I know he's had many accomplishments other than number of state titles. My point is that many wrestlers end their HS career and are mentally done wrestling. Ben obviously was not. Still isn't.