Author Topic: Could not have said it better....  (Read 18313 times)

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Offline badgerjohn

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2013, 12:09:30 AM »
...................It's comparable to sitting with other associates at your work and complaining about your superior being a bad manager. It does nothing - it only hurts the attitudes of your peers and those who overhear your blabber. The only way you get anything do is going a step above and voicing your concern to someone with authority to make a change. If this is how you approach criticizing or evaluating a superior in real life (complaining to your peers and those below you), that's too bad.................

I could take that a step further.  Would you complain to your own customers?  To your prospects?
"Common sense rarely survives an encounter with lawyers."  DrSnide 12/28/11

Offline billymurphy

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2013, 12:32:45 AM »
Great post Hammen. You are a glass half full guy.

I personally thought Barry should have been fired 12 years ago and wanted him gone then.  I just never felt like Barry Davis had a clue of which WI wrestlers were actually college material or not.  It is bad enough to the point that I wonder if he even follows WI high school wrestling. It is very obvious that Brandvold does though so that is a major problem solved right there making Brandvold critical to the program's success.

 I think that people are clearly voicing their displeasure with program by not showing up to attend the matches the last two seasons.  I sure am not going to tell Barry Alvarez his business as he already locked Barry into a long term deal and no way he is going to break that no matter what anybody says.  

The positives of the program right now is that Brandvold is able to identify and recruit the top WI guys and is also is making good progress by recruiting good Illinois recruits.  Frankly with Thielke and Jordan and Taylor there is going to be some major upgrades to next years varsity lineup and I expect the crowds to at least triple next year which proves the theory, " if you build it they will come".    Dieringer set the bar high for Thielke.  Dieringer was an eyelash from winning a national title this season.

Offline Numbers

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2013, 12:42:53 AM »


Great questions Dman.  I personally think all should be allowed on this forum, both Barry Fans and those that want him replaced.  I agree that being critical and questioning directions can make things stronger.  However, as many have pointed out and how Drew articulated, it's only going to hurt the program when the conversation is more centered on "Barry Sucks", "Donny did all the work" type negativity as opposed to positive criticism (oxymoron alert) such as we need different marketing, we need to get more fans in the seats, etc.

I think there is a place here for all fans and I honestly respect all others opinions.  Drew is right though, if you want to complain productively, just like in the real world, reach out to Alvarez directly, not people underneath him who have no decision making ability.  I think even Ben A agreed on this.

-M Deadman
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So it is fair to say that Barry Davis has not had the success of Dan Gable, John Smith, or Cael Sanderson.  How many other coaches have?  Many on the forum want UW to compete at the very top level as a team consistently which not many teams do.  Wisconsin has produced many individual AA under Barry Davis.  Yes DP was one of those AA.  Yes DP became an assistant coach and did his job to help bring some more AA wrestlers to UW.  Yes DP was part of UW taking a step backwards.  Yet Barry Davis still strives for excellence.  I believe it takes a team of solid coaches to have an elite program.  Now we are lucky to have Trevor Brandvold as an assistant coach and he is doing great from my perspective.

On a side note...If Ben Askren ever wanted to be part of a D1 coaching team either in his home state, Missouri, or some place else - I find it hard to believe the program would not be elevated.  Since I have not read the NCAA recruiting rulebook, I have no idea if his wrestling schools would be a conflict.


Offline padre

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2013, 02:20:42 AM »
Yes, What are some specifics as to why you wouldn't want your son or a wrestler you coach going to UW?
Padre... I doubt Ben has more enthusiasm for the sport than Barry.


He promotes the sport much much more. Not even Badger camps to go to in Madison yet Ben can fill his own and has to put limitations on them.   

I know Barry is enthusiastic when his wrestlers are on the mat and am sure he is about the sport within the realm of the Badger wrestling room and team....but thats not putting butts in the seats.  Without promotion even the in-state kids generally don't have that hunger to be a Badger like kids want to be a Hawkeye, Gopher or Cowboy.

I am not a habitual Barry basher....just saying  much of the energy that is needed to promote the Badgers to in-state wrestlers and fans is not at minimum being used in a very productive manner.  Someone with Ben's intensity would make sure it was.  I am not asking for him to be the coach as it is not a reality....just saying I wish there was a bit more enthusiasm being spread out there....that being said I think Trevor is a person open to anything that could help the Badgers.

At some point for coaches they are not as inspired as they once were.   Whether one is a professional, high school, college or youth coach generally you start out on fire trying to do all you can to help your program and every year that little bit of luster fades.  This is why you have to surround yourself with fresh assistants and people in the program that assert themselves to promoting the sport and keeping it fresh in their athletes mind to inspire them to the top.  Much like they say winning is contagious, mediocrity and the allowing of it can also be.

Offline dman

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2013, 10:49:04 AM »
I understand and respect the point people are trying to make and drew articulated.  However, not everyone is "close" enough to the program to reach out to BA or even BD.  And rightfully they probably shouldn't given the inability to properly articulate their criticisms and opinions in a professional way....hence the benefit of a public forum.  I worked for a company that created a company form for the employee's to post their feelings about certain corporate decisions and they were allowed to do it "anonymously".  It was great!  And my respect for the CEO/President for doing it.  There are a lot of good things that can be taken out of all the negative posts...of course you need to read through the unprofessionalism of some of the posts.....but the point is usually in there some where. 

But I still have to point out that some have not really answered my first question.....what is the criteria some of you would use (including you Drew  :) ) where you all would feel there is a need for a change?

And as for if I would want my kid to wrestle for the UW.....man that would be awesome if he was ever good enough to have that opportunity!  :)  If he was....at this point...and to be honest....I am not sure if I would or not.  I think Trevor is absolutely great for the program; however, my son may have better opportunities and success at another university....but ultimately it would be my son's decision.  And if he chose UW I would support him 100%.  Sort of like I support the badgers 100% even if I am critical of some of the things that have happened, or haven't happened.  :)  I still continue to donate to the UW and the wrestling program, still attend meets when I can, still follow the wrestlers and root them on, etc.

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2013, 10:49:04 AM »

Offline Coach N.Ryan

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2013, 10:52:38 AM »
Yes, What are some specifics as to why you wouldn't want your son or a wrestler you coach going to UW?
Padre... I doubt Ben has more enthusiasm for the sport than Barry.


IMO Ben is one of the leading advocates in our state/country for wrestling. I think it would be difficult to say that one person has more or less "enthusiasm" for the sport than another. I think they both are both influential to the sport of wrestling, but if you ask a non wrestler who Barry Davis is, the majority of the people do not know. IF you ask them who Ben Askren is, they usually  and know something about his camps, his national dominance in wrestling (espy candidate), his podcasts, his mma success or something to that extent. I think Ben does a great job as an "enthusiast" of our sport. This is a compliment to Ben, not a bash on Barry.

Offline MNbadger

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2013, 11:12:55 AM »
Is the UW and/or Barry failing Graff, Medberry, etc.?
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
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Offline thedecider

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2013, 11:18:37 AM »
Is the UW and/or Barry failing Graff, Medberry, etc.?

Maybe, Graff has yet to win a national title and Medberry was not an all-american this year.

Offline dman

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2013, 11:24:30 AM »
Is the UW and/or Barry failing Graff, Medberry, etc.?

So is this an answer to my question.....you feel that the UW has not failed Graff cause he is a three time all american, and UW has not failed Medberry cause he had a great year?  If either one had had a bad year then that would have been your criteria that a change is needed at the UW?

Offline MNbadger

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2013, 11:36:22 AM »
Absolutely not but the program seems to be working for them.  There are wrestlers who come to Minnesota and don't cut it, wrestlers whom others think are "sure things" to be the next 2 X NC and so on.  They don't cut it for what ever reason, and there are many. 
I do think Barry and UW could produce more enthusiasm for wrestling in the state by developing some kind of camp along the lines of J's Intensive Camps.  You have to get the kids to buy in.  Other than that, I think Barry does a great job. 
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2013, 11:36:22 AM »

Offline BuckyMatt

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »


But I still have to point out that some have not really answered my first question.....what is the criteria some of you would use (including you Drew  :) ) where you all would feel there is a need for a change?


I would say that my criteria for replacing the coach would have to do with:

a)National finishes,
b)Fan Support
c) Wrestler Character(more so not getting into Penn State type trouble)

In terms of National finishes, I would give Barry a B- for previous years (I think  someone said average of 18th or so?).  However, Barry, Donny, and Jared had the Badgers poised to be a National Title contender for years to come prior to 2011.  Then 2011 happened and they are slowly rebuilding from that.  (BTW, 2011 results have NOTHING to do with my criteria because even if Donny was still an assistant, it would have been the EXACT same lineup and same dismal results.  Luckily, I think that Barry, Kyle and Trevor are doing an excellent job rebuilding and have the Badgers poised to be a Top 10 team year in and year out. A few breaks here and there and they could be a top 5 team.  Therefore, in the future, I think that fans won't  be able to complain about National finishes because the Badgers will be solid.

In terms of Fan Support, this is certainly an area that HAS to be improved and 400 fans at a dual meet is a testament to that. I would say this as the biggest opportunty for the current staff.   Fortunately, it sounds like this is an area that Trevor and Kyle are focusing big time on.  Especially with Thielke in the lineup next year, I think attendance will balloon.  I would take a wait and see approach with this criteria but I am optimistic.

In terms of Wrestler Character, we don't have wrestlers being accused of rape!  We don't have wrestlers punching off duty police officers! We don't have wrestlers getting arrested at Mifflin street.  Barry recruits high character kids.  Plus, as a team they do more community service hours than any other varisty sport.  What's not to love here and give Barry an A+?

-M Deadman

Offline npope

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2013, 02:24:27 PM »
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.


I can appreciate your sincere question here, dman. Might I suggest that the question should really be asked of and answered by former wrestlers from the program? Are they not the ones for whom the program exists? If the actual student participants in a non-revenue sport have a generally positive (or negative) position as to the "true" value of their experience isn't that really what we would want to know? Their opinion, after leaving the program, would seem to be the most relevant assessment of the value of a program (because it is their experience for which the program exists). It's not for the fans, it's not for the coaches, etc. Non-revenue sports exist for the benefit of the student athlete him/herself.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 02:26:37 PM by npope »
Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

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Offline dman

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2013, 02:49:12 PM »
Thanks Matt!  I agree that character of the wrestlers should be a criteria as well.  With the exception of Drew, I think the badgers have exceptional character and are fine young men.  Okay...okay...Drew isn't bad either!  :)  I also agree that the program and BD need to focus on getting butts in the seats as well as getting the coaches more exposure to the high school kids and the high school programs.

Funny thing I have to point out and I know I am risking the chance of this turning negative again, but there are a lot of people on here that say things like you just did Matt and they get labeled a Barry basher and Badger hater....which has been my point all along....people can have constructive criticisms of the program and list things that they feel the head coach needs to work on, but at the end of the day that isn't Barry bashing or being a Badger hater.

Offline dman

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2013, 02:52:23 PM »
Curious for some of you on here......and I know this has been asked before but some refuse to answer...so dad 2 5 and scrouge....what would have to happen for you guys to ever feel there should be a change to the head coach of the badgers?  And I am not trying to stir the pot either....but a serious question.


I can appreciate your sincere question here, dman. Might I suggest that the question should really be asked of and answered by former wrestlers from the program? Are they not the ones for whom the program exists? If the actual student participants in a non-revenue sport have a generally positive (or negative) position as to the "true" value of their experience isn't that really what we would want to know? Their opinion, after leaving the program, would seem to be the most relevant assessment of the value of a program (because it is their experience for which the program exists). It's not for the fans, it's not for the coaches, etc. Non-revenue sports exist for the benefit of the student athlete him/herself.


That is cool you think that former wrestlers should be the one answering the question, and maybe they should, but I was really going off of this being the public forum where people like me, who should really be working, go to get into healthy debates with others.  :)

By the way....I have had plenty of conversations with former wrestlers and they have provided great insight.  Drew being one that has provided the least constructive insight I have ever had provided to me about any subject ever!!  Again.....just teasing you little guy!   :-*

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2013, 02:52:23 PM »

Offline hammen

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2013, 03:54:49 PM »
I'm just getting dogged by the big guy today!

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2013, 03:54:49 PM »