Author Topic: Could not have said it better....  (Read 18315 times)

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Offline hammen

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2013, 05:45:36 PM »
I imagine it would be difficult with just becoming a father and continuing his MMA dominance. I would never doubt Ben though, he dominates in most everything he does. He would be great to have in any college room. I really like what he's doing developing Southeast WI wrestling right now, so I selfishly hope that he continues that course for the next few years. I think it could be an inevitable career path though (him being a head coach and bringing a program to the top).

Offline Scourge

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2013, 06:51:44 PM »
Good video.  I agree that all the little things on and off the mat make a difference in putting fans in the seats and building a program.  As I have written before:

1.  Summer camps help recruiting and help the state of wrestling - get the camps ramped up to get the best wrestlers wanting to come during the summer.  Day camps are not worth it.  You need to go back to overnight camps in the dorms with the UW wrestlers and alumni as counselors.  They should be present at each session if possible.  The young kids would love this.  End the camp with a tournament.
2.  Hold a coaching clinic each year similar to the Wisconsin Football Coaches Association.  Make it worthwhile for the state coaches to come to Madison.  Help them become better coaches and it will help you by building support.
3.  Invite wrestling teams through the high school coaching staff to come watch a dual meet and make it an experience for the team.  This builds support and fans.  Give the high school team a tour of the facilities.  Have your redshirts give the tour.  Make sure the highschool team gets the royal treatment.
4.  Get the Badger coaching staff and athletes involved with the state wrestling tournament.  They should be visible and helping out.  Why can't they hand out medals?  Why can't they congratulate the athletes on the podium? 
5.  Get the Wisconsin Program in the state wrestling program and on the scoreboard during the finals.  Make a cool video that can play during state.  Put a cool write up in the program. etc......

I could go on and on but you get the point.

All great ideas.  Hope someone there at UW is listening.  I think if you look at Ben's points you could point to UW as one of the programs that isn't getting it done in many of those ways. 



I don't think it was very subtle(and I don't think it was intended to be when he specifically lays out how he goes to forums and hears "wait until next year") that he was directly referencing Wisconsin.  Talking about how long a coach has been there, how they're complacent.  And there is obviously some friction or animosity still left there.


I just want to know how are we supposed to know from afar what coaches are doing a good job?  What's the criteria?  Taking Wisconsin out of it for a second, is Northwestern meating their criteria?  Should the Michigan schools fire their coaches?  The Indiana schools?   

Offline dman

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 11:21:53 AM »
I thought Ben did a good job at explaining what he thought were some of the criteria to evaluate coaches on in terms of the overall sustainability of wrestling at the collegiate level and all levels really.  He did a good job of saying it is not solely on wins and loses, even though that is a big part.  He indicated that coaches should be promoting the sport, fund raising, getting fan and sponsor support, improving each and every year, recruiting in state kids and top talent, visibility at the high schcool level in their state, larger schools helping the smaller state schools and supporting them, etc......and also he feels we all are responsible too, to hold these coaches to those standards and be very vocal, critical, and not support teams blindly.  I personally agree with everything he said.

Offline Miltown grappler

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 12:56:33 PM »
Yes, I absolutely agree with everything Ben is saying.  Some of our better high school programs understand this better than most of our college programs in the state.  

In regards to Wisconsin....we are obviously lacking in almost every area of what is considered a top notch program.  The assistant coaches can help with this...but it must be led by the head coach-especially the vision for what it should be in regards to public relations, building relationships with high school programs, recruiting, making a dual an event that people want to see and not expecting people to come just because they should.  Unfortunately the reasons to drop the program in Boston could very easily be applied to our Badger program.

My e-mail of concern has been sent to Barry Alvarez

« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 01:14:39 PM by Miltown grappler »

Offline Scourge

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 03:42:24 PM »
I thought Ben did a good job at explaining what he thought were some of the criteria to evaluate coaches on in terms of the overall sustainability of wrestling at the collegiate level and all levels really.  He did a good job of saying it is not solely on wins and loses, even though that is a big part.  He indicated that coaches should be promoting the sport, fund raising, getting fan and sponsor support, improving each and every year, recruiting in state kids and top talent, visibility at the high schcool level in their state, larger schools helping the smaller state schools and supporting them, etc......and also he feels we all are responsible too, to hold these coaches to those standards and be very vocal, critical, and not support teams blindly.  I personally agree with everything he said.


Yes, I saw the video dman, my point was all of those criteria(some of which I didn't hear him say) are vague.  "Promoting the sport?"  I didn't see him say they have to "improve each and every year," which frankly isn't realistic.  "Recruiting the states top in-state talent?"  How are we to know every wrestler he's recruiting?  What we know is who he gets.  Larger schools supporting smaller schools? 

He would certainly know more than me about the situation in Buffalo, but we're just going to say that their coach got lazy, complacent and essentially bored after 32 years and it's his fault that a program got cut?  Too many programs have gotten cut for me to just dump the blame on a coach that I have never heard of before and I doubt MOST on this board had never heard of before either. 

I agree, coaches should be trying to promote their sport, they should try raise funds...they should try to get the top wrestlers in the state..in theory.  Obviously it's not that easy to do that.  Tim Hartung, Tyler Baer, Stephen Monk are three examples of National Champs, Finalists or highly ranked wrestlers right there that obviously far exceeded expectations.   

So yeah, all these coaches should all be trying to do these things.  But this seemed to be pointed at one program in particular, and if HE feels that people should be calling for "heads to roll," then with all due respect, he should be calling for those heads to roll himself.  Obviously he had at least ONE coach in mind. 

My problem and it's been my problem all along is that by constantly belaboring the point on the internet(this is about this site and the Badgers, not so much about the video right now) on a forum like this is you're not helping the program, you're only hurting it.  You're not encouraging a kid like Breske or Sharenbrock to go to Wisconsin, you're on here talking about how terrible Barry Davis is rather than sending the message to the AD's.

Wrestling will never have a fan base like FB or BB, so the "outcry," so fans complaining on messages boards will almost certainly never be seen by the people who matter.  But again, it is seen by the best kids in the state and it certainly doesn't further Wisconsin wrestling IMO.

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 03:42:24 PM »

Offline dad 2 5

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2013, 03:53:46 PM »
1

Offline dman

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2013, 04:48:28 PM »
I thought Ben did a good job at explaining what he thought were some of the criteria to evaluate coaches on in terms of the overall sustainability of wrestling at the collegiate level and all levels really.  He did a good job of saying it is not solely on wins and loses, even though that is a big part.  He indicated that coaches should be promoting the sport, fund raising, getting fan and sponsor support, improving each and every year, recruiting in state kids and top talent, visibility at the high schcool level in their state, larger schools helping the smaller state schools and supporting them, etc......and also he feels we all are responsible too, to hold these coaches to those standards and be very vocal, critical, and not support teams blindly.  I personally agree with everything he said.


Yes, I saw the video dman, my point was all of those criteria(some of which I didn't hear him say) are vague.  "Promoting the sport?"  I didn't see him say they have to "improve each and every year," which frankly isn't realistic.  "Recruiting the states top in-state talent?"  How are we to know every wrestler he's recruiting?  What we know is who he gets.  Larger schools supporting smaller schools?  

He would certainly know more than me about the situation in Buffalo, but we're just going to say that their coach got lazy, complacent and essentially bored after 32 years and it's his fault that a program got cut?  Too many programs have gotten cut for me to just dump the blame on a coach that I have never heard of before and I doubt MOST on this board had never heard of before either.  

I agree, coaches should be trying to promote their sport, they should try raise funds...they should try to get the top wrestlers in the state..in theory.  Obviously it's not that easy to do that.  Tim Hartung, Tyler Baer, Stephen Monk are three examples of National Champs, Finalists or highly ranked wrestlers right there that obviously far exceeded expectations.  

So yeah, all these coaches should all be trying to do these things.  But this seemed to be pointed at one program in particular, and if HE feels that people should be calling for "heads to roll," then with all due respect, he should be calling for those heads to roll himself.  Obviously he had at least ONE coach in mind.  

My problem and it's been my problem all along is that by constantly belaboring the point on the internet(this is about this site and the Badgers, not so much about the video right now) on a forum like this is you're not helping the program, you're only hurting it.  You're not encouraging a kid like Breske or Sharenbrock to go to Wisconsin, you're on here talking about how terrible Barry Davis is rather than sending the message to the AD's.
Wrestling will never have a fan base like FB or BB, so the "outcry," so fans complaining on messages boards will almost certainly never be seen by the people who matter.  But again, it is seen by the best kids in the state and it certainly doesn't further Wisconsin wrestling IMO.

Ummm....sorry if you took my post personal as it really wasn't directed at you at all scrouge.  You said you wanted to know what criteria should be used to evaluate coaches....I said that I got what those were form Ben's video, and if you didn't, well than that is you, I could really care less.  My opinion is that Ben is right on with what he says and I agree with what I took away from as how coaches should be evaluated.  

And if you are going to make the leap that I am on a forum like this talking about how terrible Barry Davis is....I would like for you to pull any post in this thread or any thread this year which I have said such a thing?  I wasn't even thinking about Barry Davis when I wrote what I wrote, but I do think that he in addition to all coaches should be evaluated and critiqued based of what Ben indicates.  And if THAT is going to keep guys like Breske and Sharenbrock from going to the UW....well you are entitled to your opinion there scroogy....but I am truly hoping you don't really feel that way??  Have you ever read the Penn St. boards??  Iowa boards?? Go read those and then come back here and tell me that anything anyone is saying on here is going to keep us from getting star recruits.  To me your attitude is exactly what Ben is talking about.....you go be complacent scroogy...that is your perogative....but I always live by the saying....the definition of stupid/crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result......so keep doing the same thing over and over there buddy!  
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 04:50:41 PM by dman »

Offline MNbadger

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 05:11:10 PM »
While I respect Ben's opinion there are some things to be said.
1) Programs get cut all the time that are successful (U of Nebraska Omaha) ONO was successful competitively and financially and nearly ran in the black.  They were multiple National Champs and were cut the evening of winning a back to back NC.
2) I am not the biggest Barry fan in the world but he deserves some respect.  He has had his successes(Pritzlaff himself is one of Barry's successes). 
3) As someone mentioned before, is Northwestern's coach worthless?  Is Indiana's coach worthless?  I think not.  Sometimes you do everything right and it still doesn't work, for many reasons.  Yes, I've been there.  We did everything the successful programs do.  We were unafraid to copy the successful programs. We worked very hard, it was my life. Some times the situation is what it is.
4) Lastly, (and I know I'll get heat for saying this) at what college does Ben coach?????????????????????
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Offline billymurphy

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2013, 10:31:25 PM »
Ben has been a coach at Missouri and Arizona State and helped coach 2 national champions wrestlers at Arizona State and 1 national champion at Missouri if I am not mistaken.  Pretty darn good track record and it did not take 18 years to do it.

Attendance numbers are not vague.  WI has not had good attendance numbers the last two years to say it nicely.  However, I think Thielke is going to change all that as people will want to see him and the team should be loaded with a good number of quality seniors.  With the exception of Graff, WI fell apart towards the end of this past year.  WI should improve greatly over our 10th place big ten finish. The top five teams may be too much for the Badgers but you have to figure Michigan will redshirt their four blue chip recruits leaving the Big Ten Tournament standings:
1. Penn State
2. Minnesota
3. Iowa
4. Ohio State
5. Illinois
6. WI/Nebraska/Northwestern/Michigan/Purdue fighting it out for sixth place.

Offline MNbadger

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2013, 10:46:49 PM »
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2013, 10:46:49 PM »

Offline Todd

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 11:20:23 PM »
Has Ben applied for many D1 coaching positions?


Ben was working with AZ St. but I think his Olympic aspirations then took priority.  I think Ben's a little busy with his MMA career to apply for a DI program but maybe it's in his future when he's done competing.  Ben has been at the top of everything he's at and if he wanted to be a DI coach I'm sure he'd be given the chance and do well with it. 
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Offline Todd

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 11:23:45 PM »
I imagine it would be difficult with just becoming a father and continuing his MMA dominance. I would never doubt Ben though, he dominates in most everything he does. He would be great to have in any college room. I really like what he's doing developing Southeast WI wrestling right now, so I selfishly hope that he continues that course for the next few years. I think it could be an inevitable career path though (him being a head coach and bringing a program to the top).

I think with the success of his academy, collegiate wrestling, if Ben decides to coach he'll be able to write his own ticket.
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Offline Barou

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 11:50:47 PM »
So Ben was an assistant coach and had two at ASU and one at Mizz, admirable.  I would say if a group of individuals hadn't bailed on Barry, he would have done quite well the last couple of years.  This would have made his "track record" pretty darned good.  He is a Head Coach, not an assistant (these are two very different positions).

They bailed because of Barry not on Barry.  Barry's average finish is in the 17-18 area. If ben gets a hc job I guarantee he will have better results. If he got the wisconsin job, I bet he averages in the top 10.
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Offline MNbadger

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2013, 11:12:40 AM »
There is no way of knowing what Ben would do.  It is just speculation. 
I would like to reach through the screen and slap the next person who starts a thread about "global warming." Wraslfan
"Obama thinks we should all be on welfare."  BigG
"MN will eventually go the way of Greece." Wraslfan

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2013, 11:12:40 AM »

Offline Dale Einerson

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2013, 12:57:00 PM »

3) As someone mentioned before, is Northwestern's coach worthless?  Is Indiana's coach worthless?  I think not.  Sometimes you do everything right and it still doesn't work, for many reasons.  Yes, I've been there.  We did everything the successful programs do.  We were unafraid to copy the successful programs. We worked very hard, it was my life. Some times the situation is what it is.
Northwestern, considering their academic reputation, has been a huge success in wrestling and athletics in general.  If WI were a top tier school there'd be little to criticize, but WI academics vs. Northwestern academics doesn't even compare.  I mean there are some rankings that have Northwestern at number 1 in the nation in academics.  Indiana?  There's not much of a wrestling tradition in that basketball state.  Wisconsin has higher standards than that.  We should be one of the top 5 states (and Universities) in wrestling year in and year out.

To say Wisconsin doesn't compare as a top tier University is not fair or accurate.  Depends on the program, but business, generally top 20-25 in national rankings, engineering, top 10-15, for example.  The difference in the top 20-25 is not as great as some might imagine either, but Wisconsin is definitely a top tier university nationally speaking.

Can't say I would base a hire on whether an candidate was from Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, MIT, Rice, Standford, Harvard or Northwestern...would base it on the individual.  And anybody that goes through any of these academic programs and does well has proven a great deal.

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Re: Could not have said it better....
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2013, 12:57:00 PM »