Iowa's agressiveness?????

boowrestle · March 22, 2013, 07:11:00 PM

Is it just me or has Iowa changed their style?McDough and Ramos do pretty much nothing on their feet in tough matches,Ramos stalls his butt off in neutral position and all he does is pushes like a HWT.I cant wait to watch Ramos get schooled tomorrow night,jmo will be totally different match from Big10 finals.

boowrestle · March 22, 2013, 08:53:36 PM

2 matches against Tyler and Ramos has yet to take a legit offensive shot!!!!But somehow refs thinks he is the aggressor?

Briopiate · March 22, 2013, 09:21:31 PM

Quote from: boowrestle on March 22, 2013, 07:11:00 PM
Is it just me or has Iowa changed their style?McDough and Ramos do pretty much nothing on their feet in tough matches,Ramos stalls his butt off in neutral position and all he does is pushes like a HWT.I cant wait to watch Ramos get schooled tomorrow night,jmo will be totally different match from Big10 finals.

Totally agree. The new Iowa style is to push, push, with no offensive attempts. Graff's style does him no favors late in close matches, because he likes to create space, then it looks like he's running when Ramos just keeps pushing forward....Alex's match was frustrating to watch too...

Chedd · March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM

At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.

Barou · March 22, 2013, 11:09:08 PM

Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.

+1

boowrestle · March 23, 2013, 09:14:29 AM

Chedd,u better go back and watch some iowa film they havent been wrestling this style for a long time,looks like watching whole team of ryan morningstars,Brands and steiners the Gable wrestlers never would just push and stall and rely on refs to award them free pts for the win.Iam not complaining,pretty much all of college wrestling has adapted this style,not everybody can wrestle like David Taylor!Dake is going to be surprised by tonights finals results,no 4 timer tonight,Taylor 3/4pts over Dake tonight!

npope · March 23, 2013, 09:27:07 AM

Iowa guys engage and move forward; they don't back up to "create distance" and they don't just tie up the other guy. They are hand fighting and working the head (some might say eyes). I would agree that they aren't taking all of the shots (like Ramos refuses to do), but many do. I think the bottom line is that if (like Ramos) you confront your opponent and engage him in "meaningful" combat, e.g. movement, hand fighting, etc., the ref is going to look at that as being actively engaged, i.e. not stalling.

The converse is exemplified by Graff; backing up, constantly giving ground (for whatever rationale), making just a few well timed shots over the course of the match, etc. That is not a winning recipe, evidently. The refs are going to view that as stalling (if he shot more then maybe he could make an argument for it not being stalling, but if you employ that strategy for 5 of the 7 minutes of the match then you simply have to expect to get hit with stalling.

Personally, I think the ref in the Graff-Ramos match called it exactly right. He hit Graff with the stall calls plenty early enough in the match so that Graff had time to change his approach - but he didn't. The ref didn't "surprise" Graff with the call in the last seconds of the match. Good for the ref.

Chedd · March 23, 2013, 09:37:20 AM

Quote from: npope on March 23, 2013, 09:27:07 AM
The converse is exemplified by Graff; backing up, constantly giving ground (for whatever rationale), making just a few well timed shots over the course of the match, etc. That is not a winning recipe, evidently. The refs are going to view that as stalling (if he shot more then maybe he could make an argument for it not being stalling, but if you employ that strategy for 5 of the 7 minutes of the match then you simply have to expect to get hit with stalling.

Delgado uses a similar strategy but Graff took it to the extreme. Only one shot the whole match will get you hit with stalling if you give ground the rest of the match. Delgado also gets himself into scramble situations when he is riding, Graff just let Ramos go. If Graff limits the time on their feet he probably wins. Taking another outside single, where he wasn't in position to get taken down, might have been enough. Ramos has great defense but Graff respected it too much.

I agree the ref called a good match. He didn't decide it by calling it too late. He let the wrestlers win it.

Chedd · March 23, 2013, 09:52:41 AM

Quote from: boowrestle on March 23, 2013, 09:14:29 AM
Chedd,u better go back and watch some iowa film they havent been wrestling this style for a long time,looks like watching whole team of ryan morningstars,Brands and steiners the Gable wrestlers never would just push and stall and rely on refs to award them free pts for the win.Iam not complaining,pretty much all of college wrestling has adapted this style,not everybody can wrestle like David Taylor!Dake is going to be surprised by tonights finals results,no 4 timer tonight,Taylor 3/4pts over Dake tonight!

Most Iowa wrestlers combine aggressiveness/pushing people out with offense. Ramos is the only Iowa national champion level wrestler that I remember who rarely takes a shot. Many of their mid level wrestlers have the style we are all referring to but most of their AA at least incorporate some offense to it. Guys like the Brands', Mocco, Metcalf, Mc Illravy, McDonough, Fullhart, etc would typically push guys all over the mat, force bad shots and open up their offense when guys wear down. Iowa definitely has a style and have had the same style for a very long time. Very rarely do they put guys on the mat who don't fit this style (Mark Perry, the Williams bros are the only ones I can remember). Maybe they have taken it to the next level in recent years or maybe it is just everybody focusing on Ramos' match last night. I've been watching Big Ten wrestling for approximately 15-20 years and I noticed the Iowa style then just as I do now.

Ghetto · March 23, 2013, 11:32:33 AM

Quote from: Goat Roper on March 23, 2013, 11:03:44 AM
I'll bet Matt McDonough weighs 145# today.

+1

And closer to 160 by weeks end

tbone · March 23, 2013, 01:06:33 PM

wonder if he wishes he had that big 10 medal back?

Todd · March 23, 2013, 02:21:38 PM

Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.

I thought after Graff got the lead while Ramos did a lot of blocking Graff also seemed to either run out of gas or just couldn't sustain his first takedown/reversal explosiveness. I don't know about the stalling on Graff but he obviously didn't do enough to win that match. He did have a great tournament and an awesome 3rd place.

Congrats!

Scourge · March 23, 2013, 02:40:41 PM

Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.

Actually, it's something that's VERY new.....

It's a lot different than they wrestled with Metcalf and guys like that. They'er not attacking, they're just pushing and blocking...WHICH is stalling.

And it doesn't matter that you've taken every single shot because you backed up for some space?

Chinpin · March 23, 2013, 06:09:22 PM

I agree about Ramos. Iowa fans, of course, claim Tyler stalls.
In fairness to Matt McDonough, he has had a bad shoulder all year. If you have ever had thad problem, you can sympathize.

Chedd · March 23, 2013, 09:43:32 PM

Quote from: Scourge on March 23, 2013, 02:40:41 PM
Quote from: Chedd on March 22, 2013, 10:38:12 PM
At what point do we stop complaining about this "new" Iowa style and start figuring out that you need to either match their physicality or be a few points better? Iowa has been doing this for a very long time. Nothing new about it. Don't back up, you put the ref in a position to think you are stalling.

Actually, it's something that's VERY new.....

It's a lot different than they wrestled with Metcalf and guys like that. They'er not attacking, they're just pushing and blocking...WHICH is stalling.

And it doesn't matter that you've taken every single shot because you backed up for some space?

Point to an individual time in Ramos' semis or finals match where he could have been called for stalling. He isn't stalling, he just isn't taking shots. If you push the action, you get the calls. Whether we like it or, no ref is going to award a stalling call to our guy for backing up and taking one shot the entire match.

Shockingly, Ramos took shots in the finals.