U.S. Secretary of Education says Collegiate Athletics has Misplaced Priorities

Started by npope, March 21, 2013, 11:09:22 AM

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npope

While we are all sucked into the marketing an hype associated with March Madness and our own NCAA wrestling tournament, some in high positions lament the current state of collegiate athletics and their misplaced priorities.

Coaches compensated for reaching wrong incentives (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/03/20/arne-duncan-ncaa-coaches-pay-march-madness/2004843/)
Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

Nat Pope

imnofish

Essentially, the big money sports (football and basketball) have become dominated by private money.  Just another example of how privatization of public endeavors is counterproductive, IMO.
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann Von Goethe

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints!

DrSnide

I will go farther than that.  I think college athletics are given way too high a priority over acadmics in admission also.  DI through DIII good students are bumped for lesser students who happen to be good at sports.  I'm guessing we all probably know of a HS athlete with a 2.5 GPA getting an "academic scholarship" and admission to schools where other HS kids with a higher ACT and 3.5 GPA get no such advantages and have to go to a lesser academic institution or pay more out of their pocket.


I would end all recruitment.  If you can get into the school on your own academic qualifications you can try out for a sport.  Otherwise too bad.  Let the NFL start their own minor league system why should tax dollars go to provide them a feeder system?  Universities should be about academics not sports.
Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist - Pablo Picasso

imnofish

I agree, Doc.  Now, if they want to give a kid an athletic scholarship AFTER he's been admitted, that makes sense.  I also would like to see pro sports lose the ability to draft athletes before they've used up all of their eligibility.  Maybe you'd have more athletes graduating.  Plus, you'd probably have a lot less criminal activity among pro athletes and a lot less headaches for coaches and team owners.  Darn proud of my nephew, who turned down athletic scholarship opportunities because none of the schools offered a good program in his desired major.  The kid's got his priorities straight.   8)
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann Von Goethe

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints!

npope

It's lonely out there on the point, guys. Just you, me, and the secretary of education.

Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

Nat Pope

imnofish

Quote from: npope on March 22, 2013, 05:28:50 AM
It's lonely out there on the point, guys. Just you, me, and the secretary of education.



That's because our culture values and promotes entertainment, while devaluing and maligning education. 
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann Von Goethe

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints!

dman

I see what you guys are saying about devaluing education over athletics.....however, in the real world, and as someone who hires people, participation in collegiate athletics is WAY more important than a candidates GPA in terms of making a hiring decision.  I have always had success with hiring collegiate athletes....and farmers....for professional positions and entry level positions.  If I see either or both on a resume they are the first I bring in and they usually get the position.  Point is that athletics is VERY important in developing people for the real world job market, in addition to the classroom stuff.  At the end of the day I will usually take a 2.0 collegiate athlete over the honor student who was never involved in athletics.

hammen

Quote from: dman on March 22, 2013, 10:21:07 AM
I see what you guys are saying about devaluing education over athletics.....however, in the real world, and as someone who hires people, participation in collegiate athletics is WAY more important than a candidates GPA in terms of making a hiring decision.  I have always had success with hiring collegiate athletes....and farmers....for professional positions and entry level positions.  If I see either or both on a resume they are the first I bring in and they usually get the position.  Point is that athletics is VERY important in developing people for the real world job market, in addition to the classroom stuff.  At the end of the day I will usually take a 2.0 collegiate athlete over the honor student who was never involved in athletics.

I would be a little worried about a 2.0 student-athlete. I believe that's borderline eligible for a Big Ten student-athlete (around 1.8-1.9 in the Big Ten is the cut-off I think). A 2.5-3.0 range student-athlete is a quality employee I think. There is more risk with the 2.0-2.5 student-athlete I think, depending on the school.

DrSnide

Quote from: dman on March 22, 2013, 10:21:07 AM
I see what you guys are saying about devaluing education over athletics.....however, in the real world, and as someone who hires people, participation in collegiate athletics is WAY more important than a candidates GPA in terms of making a hiring decision.  I have always had success with hiring collegiate athletes....and farmers....for professional positions and entry level positions.  If I see either or both on a resume they are the first I bring in and they usually get the position.  Point is that athletics is VERY important in developing people for the real world job market, in addition to the classroom stuff.  At the end of the day I will usually take a 2.0 collegiate athlete over the honor student who was never involved in athletics.

I take athletics into account when hiring but I have to say it's not a great predictor in my field. That being said I am hiring folks with Graduate School degrees so probably not a whole lot of 2.0 GPA undergrads in the lot either.  

My experience is the best predictor is previous employement.  I want someone who worked during college - even (or actaully especially) if not related to the field.  Give me someone who worked at McDonalds at nights during college.  Waitress or bartended? Perfect.  Better customer service mindset, no entitlement.  And yes, I have had a one or two former  D1 college athletes who had some entitlement issues that didn't last long.

Same deal with the farm background - great employees and they go to the top of my list of prospective hires.  The one former college athlete that has worked really well grew up on a farm and it shows.
Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist - Pablo Picasso

imnofish

I agree that athletic participation can be instrumental in developing a good work ethic, but I also know that it's not the only way to become a hard worker.  If someone has been a stellar athlete, but his/her academic history is suspect, that could be indicative of someone who actually lacks a good work ethic.  I had some experience as a college athlete, but a lot more as a student who was employed during college.  When I got hired for my teaching job, they openly considered both experiences.  However, the hiring committee stated that they were most impressed by the fact that I worked full-time to support a family, yet maintained a high GPA.  My athletic and coaching experiences were admittedly a bonus and I was hired with the understanding that coaching was optional.  I chose to coach and found that it enhanced by ability to do my job in the classroom, but I don't believe my athletic background superseded my academic qualifications and job experiences. 
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann Von Goethe

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints!

npope

While I understand the intrigue that participation in athletics brings to the employment table, some people confuse the issue. Some people think that athletic participation is equivalent to workplace success. The reality is that participation in athletics only provides the individual with the opportunity to develop and apply skills that might be valued in the workplace. So you see, it is the development and application of skills across diverse activities that is actually valued - not athletics at all.

I have seen tons of good athletes that have never been able to take the skills learned in athletics and transfer them to a workplace environment. So, what people in hiring positions really should be looking for (even if they don't know this themselves) is a person who would seem to have developed the "right stuff" and has demonstrated the ability to apply it to various endeavors. That is what hiring folks should be looking for - not merely participation in athletics.
Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

Nat Pope

imnofish

Quote from: npope on March 22, 2013, 01:42:44 PM
While I understand the intrigue that participation in athletics brings to the employment table, some people confuse the issue. Some people think that athletic participation (success = workplace success. The reality is that participation in athletics provides the individual with the opportunity to develop and apply skills that might be valued in the workplace. So you see, it is the development and application of skills across diverse activities that is actually valued - not athletics at all.

I have seen tons of good athletes that have never been able to take the skills learned in athletics and transfer them to a workplace environment. So, what people in hiring positions really should be looking for (even if they don't know this themselves) is a person who would seem to have developed the "right stuff" and has demonstrated the ability to apply it to various endeavors. That is what hiring folks should be looking for - not merely participation in athletics.

+1  Good post!  I agree wholeheartedly.  For example, one former WIAA champ that I knew (not one of ours) failed to graduate from high school and then got into legal trouble.  The last time I talked to him, he was calling from jail and asking me for bail money (unsuccessfully).  No way I'd hire this guy, despite his wrestling success.
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann Von Goethe

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints!

dman

Big big difference between someone who was successful in high school wrestling and someone who earned a degree while playing collegiate sports.  There is also a big big difference between someone who earned a degree with a 2.0 gpa and someone who earned a degree with a 2.0 gpa and played a collegiate sport.  As a matter of fact....the three companies I have worked for never once asked what my gpa was nor do I ask the candidates what their gpa was.  Point is that while it isn't an exact science, and there are always cases to prove otherwise, I am saying that I have very good success in hiring people that earned a degree while playing a collegiate sport.  Did they get hired just because they played a collegiate sport....of course not.  But like I said it put their resume to the top and were the first people I interviewed. 

So back to the original topic......I whole heartily think that athletics needs to be a high priority in the education system.  Athletics does just as much for our young adults as the words in all those text books in preparing them for the workforce and life.

Rush66

Quote from: imnofish on March 22, 2013, 01:51:45 PM
Quote from: npope on March 22, 2013, 01:42:44 PM
While I understand the intrigue that participation in athletics brings to the employment table, some people confuse the issue. Some people think that athletic participation (success = workplace success. The reality is that participation in athletics provides the individual with the opportunity to develop and apply skills that might be valued in the workplace. So you see, it is the development and application of skills across diverse activities that is actually valued - not athletics at all.

I have seen tons of good athletes that have never been able to take the skills learned in athletics and transfer them to a workplace environment. So, what people in hiring positions really should be looking for (even if they don't know this themselves) is a person who would seem to have developed the "right stuff" and has demonstrated the ability to apply it to various endeavors. That is what hiring folks should be looking for - not merely participation in athletics.


+1  Good post!  I agree wholeheartedly.  For example, one former WIAA champ that I knew (not one of ours) failed to graduate from high school and then got into legal trouble.  The last time I talked to him, he was calling from jail and asking me for bail money (unsuccessfully).  No way I'd hire this guy, despite his wrestling success.

I also have 2 examples.  I had a student in class who had LD and did very very poor on tests and the ACT.  in fact he scored a 15 on the ACT.  He was not dumb or lazy.  He was able to get into college through athletics.  He was not a National Champ but was an All American.  He graduated from college and now is making $100K per year.  He was only able to get into college because of athletics. 

Story number 2:  I had a student that was 4.0 he could get into any college, but he flunked out his first semester.  Then went to a Junior college and flunked out of there.  He now works at Walmart.  He was not an athlete.

My point is just because you have a high GPA or act score does not mean you will succeed in college and just because you don't have a high GPA and act does not mean you will fail in college.

npope

Quote from: Rush66 on March 24, 2013, 05:14:35 PM

My point is just because you have a high GPA or act score does not mean you will succeed in college and just because you don't have a high GPA and act does not mean you will fail in college.

Exceptions abound, no doubt about it.

But the point isn't that success in one is a better indicator than the other but rather, success across diverse endeavors is a good predictor. That kind of success is evidence of the kid understanding how to succeed in different circumstance. So, if a jock of some repute is sitting across from me, the questions I am asking are related to whether the kid can demonstrate similar success in the classroom, leadership roles is outside associations, etc. Just like those other venues, sports have the opportunity to teach a person a lot, but singular success in one endeavor is a weak predictor of future success in other fields.
Merely having an opinion doesn't necessarily make it a good one

Nat Pope