Saw someone say there is nothing to talk about, below are changes that Wisconsin High School wrestling desperately needs.
- To wrestle at a weight class in the post-season you must make SCRATCH WEIGHT without any allowances during the season at some point. You want to wrestle 126 at regionals, make 126.0 or below at any point in the season, not 129 on the day of regionals.
- No extra pound for the state series. The new year starts jan 1. You get 2 lbs, thats it.
- Full matches only at the state tournament, no 1 min first period. I get that there is time issues, getting through the three days, but Thursday can start earlier.
- State duals, 8 team brackets, semi final losers wrestle a dual for third/fourth. Wrestle duals to top 4 in all divisions.
Agree with all of those.
"- No extra pound for the state series. The new year starts jan 1. You get 2 lbs, thats it. "
I assume you still get one pound allowance for consecutive days of weigh ins?
Quote from: MNbadger on June 06, 2023, 08:36:42 AM"- No extra pound for the state series. The new year starts jan 1. You get 2 lbs, thats it. "
I assume you still get one pound allowance for consecutive days of weigh ins?
Yes
- To wrestle at a weight class in the post-season you must make SCRATCH WEIGHT without any allowances during the season at some point. You want to wrestle 126 at regionals, make 126.0 or below at any point in the season, not 129 on the day of regionals.
After Jan 15, 50% of all weigh-ins must be at the regional weight class. I'm not as concerned about a kid making scratch weight, especially only once during the season. I believe it's a better test of a wrestler's health and ability that they are down to their regional weight class more than just once.
Quote from: Handles II on June 06, 2023, 01:25:54 PM- To wrestle at a weight class in the post-season you must make SCRATCH WEIGHT without any allowances during the season at some point. You want to wrestle 126 at regionals, make 126.0 or below at any point in the season, not 129 on the day of regionals.
After Jan 15, 50% of all weigh-ins must be at the regional weight class. I'm not as concerned about a kid making scratch weight, especially only once during the season. I believe it's a better test of a wrestler's health and ability that they are down to their regional weight class more than just once.
I like that as well.
Need to make it simple and easy.
126 is 126 at every weigh-in all season and get rid of descent plan. Keep the 7% body fat rule.
No growth allowance
No extra pound on consecutive days or missed practice days.
Pick the weight class you can grow into over season
Pick the weight class that allows you to stay strong over consecutive days of wrestling.
Pick the wrong weight class and your wrestling performance will suffer or you will be miserable.
We cannot have a wrestler going for the state title at 126lbs on Saturday night weighing 132lbs when he takes the mat. That makes no sense.
Some great thoughts. But what about the wrestler that wrestles up all year to help the team? I agree that making the weight the 1st time at regionals is at question here but we have had several wresters up 1-2 weights during the season to help the team win the conference. Not all wrestler cut at the end to be the lowest weight but wrestle up to fill the holes.
Great point!
Quote from: Ship-Titan-Wolve on June 09, 2023, 03:13:42 PMSome great thoughts. But what about the wrestler that wrestles up all year to help the team? I agree that making the weight the 1st time at regionals is at question here but we have had several wresters up 1-2 weights during the season to help the team win the conference. Not all wrestler cut at the end to be the lowest weight but wrestle up to fill the holes.
Reading what Doc, junkyardpig and handles are saying is hilarious! So I did some digging and wouldn't you believe they were all in favor of dropping wieght classes as well. Which makes no sense with what they are talking about now, so you wanted less weight classes (doc all the way down to 11) which would spread out the wieghts. Yet you want to make kids cut harder? And Doc you must live under a rock if you think a 126 pound finalist wieghs 132 Saturday night more like 140!
Quote from: Willie on June 09, 2023, 06:34:17 PMReading what Doc, junkyardpig and handles are saying is hilarious! So I did some digging and wouldn't you believe they were all in favor of dropping wieght classes as well. Which makes no sense with what they are talking about now, so you wanted less weight classes (doc all the way down to 11) which would spread out the wieghts. Yet you want to make kids cut harder? And Doc you must live under a rock if you think a 126 pound finalist wieghs 132 Saturday night more like 140!
Agree Willie. THese guys are something else.
Willie - it's almost like some folks don't want cutting weight to be encouraged by the system in place. ;)
We have been doing it this way in MN for a long time. We do not require that they make scratch weight however.
Quote from: Handles II on June 06, 2023, 01:25:54 PM- To wrestle at a weight class in the post-season you must make SCRATCH WEIGHT without any allowances during the season at some point. You want to wrestle 126 at regionals, make 126.0 or below at any point in the season, not 129 on the day of regionals.
After Jan 15, 50% of all weigh-ins must be at the regional weight class. I'm not as concerned about a kid making scratch weight, especially only once during the season. I believe it's a better test of a wrestler's health and ability that they are down to their regional weight class more than just once.
Quote from: rankwizard on June 10, 2023, 08:39:37 AMQuote from: Willie on June 09, 2023, 06:34:17 PMReading what Doc, junkyardpig and handles are saying is hilarious! So I did some digging and wouldn't you believe they were all in favor of dropping wieght classes as well. Which makes no sense with what they are talking about now, so you wanted less weight classes (doc all the way down to 11) which would spread out the wieghts. Yet you want to make kids cut harder? And Doc you must live under a rock if you think a 126 pound finalist wieghs 132 Saturday night more like 140!
Agree Willie. THese guys are something else.
Or, instead of cutting, they are forced to wrestle a weight they actually weigh at.
Quote from: Willie on June 09, 2023, 06:34:17 PMReading what Doc, junkyardpig and handles are saying is hilarious! So I did some digging and wouldn't you believe they were all in favor of dropping wieght classes as well. Which makes no sense with what they are talking about now, so you wanted less weight classes (doc all the way down to 11) which would spread out the wieghts. Yet you want to make kids cut harder? And Doc you must live under a rock if you think a 126 pound finalist wieghs 132 Saturday night more like 140!
Kids cut harder? Buddy you need to work on your reading comprehension! Kids can cut zero pounds, 20 pounds, I don't care what they do, BUT to wrestle at a weight class you should have to have made the actual scratch weight at some point during the season. That's all. You should not be able to be the 113 state champion and never have weighed 113 or less during the entire season.
And yes, all states should get on the same page with weight classes and there should be 13 of them.
The only thing that will ever stop a wrestler from cutting weight is when it starts to affect performance.
The more times you make a wrestler make scratch weight the more it is going to affect his performance and force him to wrestle at a more natural weight and pick the more proper weight class.
When I wrestled in college you weighed in the day before you wrestled. That promoted extreme weight cutting.
By giving allowances and allowing so much time between weigh-ins and matches (Like the state finals) you encourage more weight cutting because the bigger kid is going to have the advantage.
My point is to give the advantage to the kid not cutting weight who is able to eat after wrestling on Friday night and still can make weight on Saturday WITHOUT an allowance.
Matside weigh-ins at scratch weights would be the best solution as it would really penalize the guys cutting the most weight but I know that will never happen.
Heck if we had matside weigh-ins and scratch weights we would have to be honest with ourselves and realize that we have to bump up the weight classes because very few could make the light ones because they are cutting so much to get there.
Willie proved my point. The dumbest most hypocritical thing we have in wrestling is crowning the 126lb state champ knowing he weighs 140.
Right now we still reward the kids that cut the most and that pendulum should change. I want to see more kids enjoying the sport through success at more natural weights.
It is about enjoying the sport by more wrestlers. Yes, I wish I could go back and wrestle without cutting excessive weight because it would have been so much more fun. It is about making the sport safer without having to worry about descent plans and all the garbage which again is just a hypocritical way of pretending to make the sport safer.
Our present system is complicated and rewards kids that cut the most especially good wrestler at tournaments. They have 3+ hours to get weight and hydration levels back to normal before they have any significant match.
Yes, I am greatly in favor of cutting weight classes for duals but leaving the 14 for tournaments
Ok, does people realize that several wrestlers are making scratch weight for their fat test in October/November. I know of several then wrestle up for a awhile before going down at some point. Ya great for the fall sports.
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 13, 2023, 03:13:06 PMThe only thing that will ever stop a wrestler from cutting weight is when it starts to affect performance.
The more times you make a wrestler make scratch weight the more it is going to affect his performance and force him to wrestle at a more natural weight and pick the more proper weight class.
When I wrestled in college you weighed in the day before you wrestled. That promoted extreme weight cutting.
By giving allowances and allowing so much time between weigh-ins and matches (Like the state finals) you encourage more weight cutting because the bigger kid is going to have the advantage.
My point is to give the advantage to the kid not cutting weight who is able to eat after wrestling on Friday night and still can make weight on Saturday WITHOUT an allowance.
Matside weigh-ins at scratch weights would be the best solution as it would really penalize the guys cutting the most weight but I know that will never happen.
Heck if we had matside weigh-ins and scratch weights we would have to be honest with ourselves and realize that we have to bump up the weight classes because very few could make the light ones because they are cutting so much to get there.
Willie proved my point. The dumbest most hypocritical thing we have in wrestling is crowning the 126lb state champ knowing he weighs 140.
Right now we still reward the kids that cut the most and that pendulum should change. I want to see more kids enjoying the sport through success at more natural weights.
It is about enjoying the sport by more wrestlers. Yes, I wish I could go back and wrestle without cutting excessive weight because it would have been so much more fun. It is about making the sport safer without having to worry about descent plans and all the garbage which again is just a hypocritical way of pretending to make the sport safer.
Our present system is complicated and rewards kids that cut the most especially good wrestler at tournaments. They have 3+ hours to get weight and hydration levels back to normal before they have any significant match.
Yes, I am greatly in favor of cutting weight classes for duals but leaving the 14 for tournaments
Have you been in a college room. Diets are the biggest thing right now and what to eat. Kids are getting to lower weights and being healthy. Not saying all kids but the diet is becoming very important and what to eat vs not eating.
Ok, tell a average high school kid that just go out and wrestle your natural weight and wrestle a kid that is 4 pounds over after weigh ins. Then wonder why the average kid quits.
Point is most average high school kids diets are pretty much junk. Have that same average bigh school kid follow a good eating program and with good excerise I guarantee that kid drops to a lower weigh class.
I call it weight management and proper diet not cutting which sounds like something not fun.
Go ahead and flame away on me but this isnt a big deal. Pushing the just wrestle at whatever you want isnt an overall great plan. Coaching a good diet and proper excerise is in my eyes a much better overall plan.
Littleguy, I agree many kids are better at weight management and those kids would do just fine if they had to make scratch weight at every weigh-in for whatever weight class they choose. I want to reward those kids, not the kids that cut way down to 106 after it becomes 109.
The 106 state champion that never weighed in at 106 lbs. once all season seems extremely silly and hypocritical. Heck some of the kids at state only weighed 109 for 2-3 weigh-ins.
This thread started with suggestion of making a kid make scratch weight once. That is a dumb rule. Making scratch weight once does not change anything.
My point is that the growth allowance is a joke. You yourself just said that kids will get more fit and actually lose weight over the season so why the growth allowance. The 1 lb. allowance for consecutive days or for missing a practice due to school closing are equally silly.
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 14, 2023, 07:43:09 AMLittleguy, I agree many kids are better at weight management and those kids would do just fine if they had to make scratch weight at every weigh-in for whatever weight class they choose. I want to reward those kids, not the kids that cut way down to 106 after it becomes 109.
The 106 state champion that never weighed in at 106 lbs. once all season seems extremely silly and hypocritical. Heck some of the kids at state only weighed 109 for 2-3 weigh-ins.
This thread started with suggestion of making a kid make scratch weight once. That is a dumb rule. Making scratch weight once does not change anything.
My point is that the growth allowance is a joke. You yourself just said that kids will get more fit and actually lose weight over the season so why the growth allowance. The 1 lb. allowance for consecutive days or for missing a practice due to school closing are equally silly.
I disagree with 1 pound for back to back days. I want my kids eating and drinking no matter if not cutting or cutting. Average kids probably use the 1 pound more than the in depth wrestlers. That is normal for the weigh ins I go to. Average kids are using the 1 pound and year around guys probably not as much.
Proper weight management and diet or the 2 terms that need to be used and not cutting.
Also many of your year around guys have it down to a T, they can make any weight at any time.
2 pounds isn't bad idea at some point of the season. Not sure as to how to word the growth allowance at this time.
" The only thing that will ever stop a wrestler from cutting weight is when it starts to affect performance."........Doc
I have been saying this for most of my career. The wrestler wants to win. The coach wants the wrestler to win. The wrestler's parents want them to win. The wrestler's siblings want them to win. If they cut weight poorly, they won't win generally. I am for getting rid of all the attempts at controlling this stuff. I am old enough to have lived through all the permutations of weight loss control all the while understanding it all did little other than make wrestling and coaching wrestling less enjoyable and more difficult. None of it ever made anyone a better wrestler or a better coach.
Why does it matter if a 106 pounder only makes it after the allowance? Why does that burn your bottom so much? To remind you, it's the same for everyone who participates.
We have always given our wrestlers very comprehensive nutrition information. Those who buy in are more successful than those who do not. My best wrestlers in the past were eating a small meal the night before their state tournament days. Others were last minute Larrys. We have freedom to choose our behaviors. This is an opportunity for learning about behavior and results.
Quote from: DocWrestling on June 13, 2023, 03:13:06 PMWillie proved my point. The dumbest most hypocritical thing we have in wrestling is crowning the 126lb state champ knowing he weighs 140.
Correction Doc. The dumbest, most hypocritical thing we have in wrestling is crowning the heavyweight state champion knowing he only weighs 195 on a good day. I think we all know who I'm talking about.
Quote from: wrestle_4ever on June 15, 2023, 11:17:31 AMQuote from: DocWrestling on June 13, 2023, 03:13:06 PMWillie proved my point. The dumbest most hypocritical thing we have in wrestling is crowning the 126lb state champ knowing he weighs 140.
Correction Doc. The dumbest, most hypocritical thing we have in wrestling is crowning the heavyweight state champion knowing he only weighs 195 on a good day. I think we all know who I'm talking about.
I don't think most of us had a problem w that but maybe his smaller size gave him an unfair quickness advantage.
JMO! I think that each wrestler should have to wrestle scratch weight at least three times before Christmas. Then after Christmas be given a two pound growth allowance until February 1st. Then one more pound at this time. Each time he weighs in he must make the revised scratch weight. There would be no additional one pound allowance because of consecutive days of wrestling. This would seem to me that there would be much less cutting and shifting of weight.
Quote from: MNbadger on June 14, 2023, 12:16:03 PM" The only thing that will ever stop a wrestler from cutting weight is when it starts to affect performance."........Doc
I have been saying this for most of my career. The wrestler wants to win. The coach wants the wrestler to win. The wrestler's parents want them to win. The wrestler's siblings want them to win. If they cut weight poorly, they won't win generally. I am for getting rid of all the attempts at controlling this stuff. I am old enough to have lived through all the permutations of weight loss control all the while understanding it all did little other than make wrestling and coaching wrestling less enjoyable and more difficult. None of it ever made anyone a better wrestler or a better coach.
Why does it matter if a 106 pounder only makes it after the allowance? Why does that burn your bottom so much? To remind you, it's the same for everyone who participates.
We have always given our wrestlers very comprehensive nutrition information. Those who buy in are more successful than those who do not. My best wrestlers in the past were eating a small meal the night before their state tournament days. Others were last minute Larrys. We have freedom to choose our behaviors. This is an opportunity for learning about behavior and results.
I agree.
I will add over the years that there is so much talk of cutting and I believe that not to be the case.
I never hear a coach of a year in and year out solid program talking cutting. I hear weight management and proper diet alot more out of their respective mouths. I will agree there is a reason they are good year in and year out.
To much blame is put on the small things that many have moved past and not on the big picture for the future.
final X was half full and someone should talk about hiring the WWE or UFC to promote big events. Getting wrestling out to more people will increase fans. Many I have found that grt a chance to watch wrestling rather enjoy it.
Worrying about 1 pound on back to back days doesn't bother the year around guys heck probably even the 2 pounds either.
Let's get to promoting wrestling!
Quote from: Willie on June 09, 2023, 06:34:17 PMReading what Doc, junkyardpig and handles are saying is hilarious! So I did some digging and wouldn't you believe they were all in favor of dropping wieght classes as well. Which makes no sense with what they are talking about now, so you wanted less weight classes (doc all the way down to 11) which would spread out the wieghts. Yet you want to make kids cut harder? And Doc you must live under a rock if you think a 126 pound finalist wieghs 132 Saturday night more like 140!
How would having someone make the potential regional weight more often equate to cutting harder? It only harder if they can't manage and maintain better. And if that's the case then they shouldn't be there. Pretty simple. The number of weight classes has nothing to do with it. But you obviously don't understand why.