The Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
On the bright side, if you consider the WI highschool class of 2024, I think we'll have a lock on 5 qualifiers for several years from just that class alone. We could surpass 10 total qualifiers by 2026 assuming at least 2 qualifiers from each of the other 3 classes.
Quote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
How much of the MN success is Pinnacle, when was that club started?
What is the MN USA program doing different?
I'm just asking questions on how/why MN has pulled so far ahead.
Quote from: Ledger on March 12, 2023, 08:24:44 AMOn the bright side, if you consider the WI highschool class of 2024, I think we'll have a lock on 5 qualifiers for several years from just that class alone. We could surpass 10 total qualifiers by 2026 assuming at least 2 qualifiers from each of the other 3 classes.
Each of those other states have several grades in a row like the 2024 class and about 3 out of a group like that will qualify statistically, not saying more won't but statistically you need a grade to put out 10 to get 3 through.The MN 2023 grade is deeper than the 2024 grade of WI, so its all averages. The 2022 class of MI is crazy as is the 2023 class in Iowa.
To catch up to 12-16 NCAA qualifiers you need 5 deep grades in a row or 3 super stars like o'tool, Parker and Buchanan that will do it 4-5 years each, most hammers are lucky to qualify 1 or 2 times.
Quote from: bigoil on March 12, 2023, 08:46:30 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
How much of the MN success is Pinnacle, when was that club started?
What is the MN USA program doing different?
I'm just asking questions on how/why MN has pulled so far ahead.
MN Elite started around 2008 and Pinnacle around 2009, they both produce qualifiers, some of WI qualifiers go to pinnacle as well.
Quote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 09:00:44 AMQuote from: bigoil on March 12, 2023, 08:46:30 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
How much of the MN success is Pinnacle, when was that club started?
What is the MN USA program doing different?
I'm just asking questions on how/why MN has pulled so far ahead.
MN Elite started around 2010 and Pinnacle around 2013, they both produce qualifiers.
IMO WWF is a stronger organization then MNUSA, better participation for sure. MN is divided between USA wrestling and NYWA.
Quote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 09:03:00 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 09:00:44 AMQuote from: bigoil on March 12, 2023, 08:46:30 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
How much of the MN success is Pinnacle, when was that club started?
What is the MN USA program doing different?
I'm just asking questions on how/why MN has pulled so far ahead.
MN Elite started around 2010 and Pinnacle around 2013, they both produce qualifiers.
IMO WWF is a stronger organization then MNUSA, better participation for sure. MN is divided between USA wrestling and NYWA.
Good to know, are UM coaches involved in either?
Quote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 09:00:44 AMQuote from: bigoil on March 12, 2023, 08:46:30 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
How much of the MN success is Pinnacle, when was that club started?
What is the MN USA program doing different?
I'm just asking questions on how/why MN has pulled so far ahead.
MN Elite started around 2010 and Pinnacle around 2013, they both produce qualifiers, some of WI qualifiers go to pinnacle as well.
Without digging too far into the weeds, do you have information on WI kids who go to Pinnacle? Went there who qualified?
For example, we can trace O'Toole and Keckeisen straight back to AWA. By area, Stephen Buchanan might be a Pinnacle guy. Possibly Koy Hopke.
If you look at division 2 and 3 Wisconsin is doing great. We had tons of qualifiers and All-American in those divsions
What year did AWA start?
Quote from: Vir Fortis on March 12, 2023, 10:38:02 AMWhat year did AWA start?
Pinnacle had a small group (20 kids) going in 2008, and they formed a partnership and opened there first facility in 2010 (I looked up the wrong info)
According to the AWA web site they opened their first facility in 2011.
Quote from: Ghetto on March 12, 2023, 09:52:04 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 09:00:44 AMQuote from: bigoil on March 12, 2023, 08:46:30 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
How much of the MN success is Pinnacle, when was that club started?
What is the MN USA program doing different?
I'm just asking questions on how/why MN has pulled so far ahead.
MN Elite started around 2010 and Pinnacle around 2013, they both produce qualifiers, some of WI qualifiers go to pinnacle as well.
Without digging too far into the weeds, do you have information on WI kids who go to Pinnacle? Went there who qualified?
For example, we can trace O'Toole and Keckeisen straight back to AWA. By area, Stephen Buchanan might be a Pinnacle guy. Possibly Koy Hopke.
Not sure if pinnicle has any WI qualifiers to be honest. I could be wrong. Buchanan was not pinnacle
Crass has had a few. Joles and Buchanan I think could be more.
Wisconsin has dad several d2 and d3 qualifiers.
Quote from: bigoil on March 12, 2023, 09:07:03 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 09:03:00 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 09:00:44 AMQuote from: bigoil on March 12, 2023, 08:46:30 AMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
How much of the MN success is Pinnacle, when was that club started?
What is the MN USA program doing different?
I'm just asking questions on how/why MN has pulled so far ahead.
MN Elite started around 2010 and Pinnacle around 2013, they both produce qualifiers.
IMO WWF is a stronger organization then MNUSA, better participation for sure. MN is divided between USA wrestling and NYWA.
Good to know, are UM coaches involved in either?
Yes the are! Plus all the coaches have kids involved in those age groups also.
So which is more important to building an NCAA qualifier? The high school staff, the HS offseason club, or the college coach? Trying to say it not all combined is silly.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 12, 2023, 06:59:33 PMSo which is more important to building an NCAA qualifier? The high school staff, the HS offseason club, or the college coach? Trying to say it not all combined is silly.
1. Initially club to develop and get wrestler to college level
2. College coach to perfect the wrestler
3. High school staff
Definitely all 3 play important roles
Another important consideration is # of D1 roster spots per state.
For example WI and MN only have 10
Iowa has 30(UNI, IA st and Iowa)
Illinois has 40(NIU, SIUE, IL and NW)
PA has 130
This is very relevant and to how many in state kids get D1 opportunities. WI for example has a ton of in state D3 colleges and we have lots of kids having success at those colleges.
I do however predict the WI qualifier # to be going up in coming years.
It would be nice if Wisconsin could add another D1 men's wrestling program and maybe add a women's team at the same time. Not sure where the scholarship money comes from?
I do know Hopke is pinnacle. Pinnacle is coached and owned by 2 quality individuals. An ncaa champion and an olympic medalist.
One of, if not the best club in country. I am sure they have at least 6 guys in the tourney this year alone. Robb, Mckee, Bergland, Kirklivet and Joles for sure are. Think how nice it would be for badgerland if the best club and d 1 collage in the state could put egos aside and coexist. Bottom line is that this foolishness between AWA and badgers hurts kids. Askren and Bono both good wrestling minds. Both make a good living because of the sport. Selfish and immature by both parties. I for one am sick of it. Time for the adults in the room to mature.
Quote from: tex on March 12, 2023, 09:12:06 PMI do know Hopke is pinnacle. Pinnacle is coached and owned by 2 quality individuals. An ncaa champion and an olympic medalist.
One of, if not the best club in country. I am sure they have at least 6 guys in the tourney this year alone. Robb, Mckee, Bergland, Kirklivet and Joles for sure are. Think how nice it would be for badgerland if the best club and d 1 collage in the state could put egos aside and coexist. Bottom line is that this foolishness between AWA and badgers hurts kids. Askren and Bono both good wrestling minds. Both make a good living because of the sport. Selfish and immature by both parties. I for one am sick of it. Time for the adults in the room to mature.
Yes it would!
Quote from: Numbers on March 12, 2023, 08:14:20 PMIt would be nice if Wisconsin could add another D1 men's wrestling program and maybe add a women's team at the same time. Not sure where the scholarship money comes from?
Bwahahahahaha. We don't even support the one we have.
Quote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
These numbers really destroy Ben's theory that AWA has elevated Wisconsin wrestling.
Quote from: 1Iota on March 18, 2023, 06:07:33 PMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
These numbers really destroy Ben's theory that AWA has elevated Wisconsin wrestling.
Watch the finals last night?
That is crazy for Illinois indeed. That's over 10% of the field.
There is a lag time. The wave is coming in the next few years. Hope you guys are ready for it :)
I'd say the club wrestling has definitely elevated wrestling in WI but 2 reasons for the decline in qualifiers:
1) Main reason: Clubs have also grown in other states, which compete for those spots against WI kids.
2) More minor: The populations in most other states have grown more than WI, so their # of wrestlers in overall talent pool probably grew more or declined less than WI.
Quote from: mike on March 19, 2023, 08:20:56 AMQuote from: 1Iota on March 18, 2023, 06:07:33 PMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
These numbers really destroy Ben's theory that AWA has elevated Wisconsin wrestling.
Watch the finals last night?
Yes, 2 elite wrestlers. That wasn't his claim. He has claimed that AWA has elevated Wisconsin wrestling as a whole. That is why Ben's response makes more sense. If we see this coming wave, his claims will be substantiated.
The next wave? Have heard that many times. Hopke is probably the only one looking like a sure thing AA but that heavyweight class with size differences can be so different in college.
The rest of this next wave have great potential to be possible NCAA qualifiers but there are many wrestlers with similar talent across the country and it has been proven to be very difficult to predict future college AA's.
He's probably talking about middle schoolers or younger. Yes, every club in the country is probably saying the same thing about their kids. They sort of have to though, don't they? That being said, I did see a few good ones yesterday in Ft Atkinson.
Quote from: DocWrestling on March 19, 2023, 02:55:51 PMThe next wave? Have heard that many times. Hopke is probably the only one looking like a sure thing AA but that heavyweight class with size differences can be so different in college.
The rest of this next wave have great potential to be possible NCAA qualifiers but there are many wrestlers with similar talent across the country and it has been proven to be very difficult to predict future college AA's.
Quote from: 1Iota on March 19, 2023, 12:42:38 PMQuote from: mike on March 19, 2023, 08:20:56 AMQuote from: 1Iota on March 18, 2023, 06:07:33 PMQuote from: factfinder on March 12, 2023, 07:48:06 AMThe Annual Flo numbers of NCAA Qualifiers by state came out on Friday.
They show the recent and past trends so it's fun to see if each state is improving or declining.
Unfortunately Wisconsin is declining.
from 2002--2013 Wisconsin averaged 7.8 qualifiers a year.
from 2013--2023 Wisconsin has only averaged 5.5 qualifiers.
I believe thats a -29% decrease over the past 10 years.
In 2023 WI has 6 qualifiers.
This isn't a reflection of the entire states progress but it does show Wisc isn't keeping up to Mich, MN, iL and Iowa for putting out NCAA Qualifiers as each of the neighboring states have seen a strong increase in qualifiers.
MN 2002-2013 ave (only 7.0) sense 2013 11.6, 2023-12. thats a 34% increase.
Il 2002- 2013 ave (15.1) sence 2013 26.0, 2023 -32. Thats a 100% increase. INSANE!!
IA 2002- 2013 ave (13.5) sence 2013 13.3, 2023 16. Flat.
MI 2003 -2013 ave (13.7) sense 2013 16.3, 2023 16. Thats a 16% increase.
These numbers really destroy Ben's theory that AWA has elevated Wisconsin wrestling.
Watch the finals last night?
Yes, 2 elite wrestlers. That wasn't his claim. He has claimed that AWA has elevated Wisconsin wrestling as a whole. That is why Ben's response makes more sense. If we see this coming wave, his claims will be substantiated.
Just as AWA has developed a high % of state qualifiers/finalists/champions since their conception, they will do the same at NCAA level at slower pace. Kinda no brainer to get into the AWA rooms
Guys do some research(I have done mine) on the #s of HS kids who are nationally ranked on Flo in the top 20. When we were getting started in 2011 the # of WI kids ranked nationally was always less than 5(most commonly 2 or 3) I think we are currently sitting at 15(13 are AWA) and 6 in the top 5. Class of 2024 will open the flood gates IMO and there are some really good ones in class of 2022/2023(Mesenbrink, Clark, Whiting, Scoles, etc) who I think will make their mark at the D1 collegiate level.
MatScouts has 14 Wisconsin kids ranked after the state tournament. Of those kids, 2 are freshman, 1 sophomore, 6 juniors and 5 seniors